Standing on long rail journeys to be banned under Virgin Trains plan for airline-style fare

[Meerkat]

People who can't be bothered to find their seat they reserved and just sit in any unreserved seat that they can find - there's a lot of these people, believe it or not.

Although a moment ago you were saying these trains were very full and therefore standing should be banned, now you are saying that there are lots of seats that are reserved but not being used.

So essentially what you are saying for you want to leave people stranded at the platform whilst by your own admission, there are unused seat reservations. That's just barmy.

Have you ever heard of a Taxi? Perhaps it might be a better mode of transport for you.

There wouldn’t be unused reservations if they were switchable at short notice, and why would people be on the platform if they know they aren’t getting on the train.

Anyway - I think we may as well agree to disagree - our positions are clear and we aren’t going to convince each other!

 

[PR1Berske]

Why is "walk up and travel" so sacred on this thread?

 

[6Gman]

Why is "walk up and travel" so sacred on this thread?

Because some of like travelling when we like and to change our plans when we want to.

 

[RT4038]

Clearly any system requiring Compulsory Reservation will require a higher level of technology backing the reservation system than we have now. However, this would be quite possible.
The business I work in encourages the use of advance tickets. It is amazing how this focuses the mind on punctuality of meetings. The reservation system could be developed to make changes to reservations easier [on certain types of tickets], coupled with a greater visibility of each trains reservation levels. I really don't buy the argument the business people couldn't be bothered with that - after all most of their businesses are trying to get everyone else to use technology in this way!

Huge numbers of airport passengers would not be turned away - they would simply book tickets and reservations through their phones, or at screens at the station. After all, they are travelling on planes that they have had to do just that.

Yes, it may mean higher fares at certain times - it may even put more pressure on to increase capacity. It would give a better travelling environment on Inter City services.

What is more important is that the debate is had. Passengers are complaining that they have to travel long distances at peak times without a seat. Clearly there is a problem with selling unlimited numbers of tickets which can be used on peak time (either commuter or Friday/Sunday etc) trains causing overcrowding, unpleasant travelling conditions, and complaint against the rail industry in general.

Slamming the suggestion, by trying to find disparate locations where it 'wouldn't' work (which with a bit of thought probably could be made to work usually) is not at all helpful!!

 

[F Great Eastern]

The business I work in encourages the use of advance tickets. It is amazing how this focuses the mind on punctuality of meetings.

It really depends on the reasons for travel though and the industry you work in. If you're talking about long planned ahead business meetings that run to a specific time then of course, advance tickets will work for this kind of thing and my company would do the same also.

However in other peoples roles and the the majority of my travel I need to travel at short notice to for various reasons, not necessarily meetings and will not know the time that they are coming back straight away or even have time to consider that so flexibility really is key here.

Huge numbers of airport passengers would not be turned away - they would simply book tickets and reservations through their phones, or at screens at the station. After all, they are travelling on planes that they have had to do just that.

I will agree we are way behind when it comes to Airport Tickets in this country on our trains. There are some very attractively priced Advance singles from airports but I never use them because with the potential for flight delays it is a lottery unfortunately. Going to Stansted from East Anglia I always go via Cambridge, because honestly the value for money is far better and the flexibility is king.

What is more important is that the debate is had. Passengers are complaining that they have to travel long distances at peak times without a seat. Clearly there is a problem with selling unlimited numbers of tickets which can be used on peak time (either commuter or Friday/Sunday etc) trains causing overcrowding, unpleasant travelling conditions, and complaint against the rail industry in general.

Of course trains are busier at Peak Times and the most crowded then, that's why it's called Peak. People with anytime tickets can choose if they travel on that train or wait for another one that is less crowded, far better to have that choice than being told that there is space but you have to wait another hour in the cold.

 

[squizzler]

Clearly any system requiring Compulsory Reservation will require a higher level of technology backing the reservation system than we have now. However, this would be quite possible.

Quite. From reading this thread you would think everybody still brought their Edmundson tickets from the booking office like it was the nineteenth century or something, and that they would have to queue up and negotiate a replacement if they wanted to change their time of travel. Ridiculous.

 

[harz99]

And of course all this discussion completely ignores those pax doing short journeys by neccessity on Intercity trains, because these trains effectively provide all, or the bulk of, the local services. Think of the Lake District services between Carlisle and stations to Warrington. What are these pax supposed to do?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Where Inter-City services are of near Metro frequency such as on the major routes out of London, would it not make more sense to have an "Advance" ticket that covered a range of services, a two hour window perhaps? It is accommodated already to an extent with the "Saver Half" ticket, but for a leisure traveller, flexibility on the return makes sense, even if they can commit to a specific train on the way back. Even leisure travellers cannot always commit themselves to a particular train. If the journey to a railhead was by road, you would lose the price of the ticket if delayed by a late running bus or traffic congestion.

 

[RT4038]

It really depends on the reasons for travel though and the industry you work in. If you're talking about long planned ahead business meetings that run to a specific time then of course, advance tickets will work for this kind of thing and my company would do the same also.

However in other peoples roles and the the majority of my travel I need to travel at short notice to for various reasons, not necessarily meetings and will not know the time that they are coming back straight away or even have time to consider that so flexibility really is key here.



I will agree we are way behind when it comes to Airport Tickets in this country on our trains. There are some very attractively priced Advance singles from airports but I never use them because with the potential for flight delays it is a lottery unfortunately. Going to Stansted from East Anglia I always go via Cambridge, because honestly the value for money is far better and the flexibility is king.



Of course trains are busier at Peak Times and the most crowded then, that's why it's called Peak. People with anytime tickets can choose if they travel on that train or wait for another one that is less crowded, far better to have that choice than being told that there is space but you have to wait another hour in the cold.

I think that some thinking out of the box is required. A workable compulsory reservation system would require more sophisticated reservation and ticketing technology than we have now. However, this would be quite possible.
Some kind of flexible ticket could be still be sold, for instance allowing reservation changes on line up to shortly before departure, which would allow business people flexibility subject to seating being available. A reservation chart on line for each train would enable those passengers to keep tabs on seat availability at busy times and make decisions based on that. Airport travellers could buy the same type of tickets and make the same decisions.

It is the trains at busier times that are the problem. I do not understand your phrase 'far better to have that choice than being told that there is space but you have to wait another hour in the cold' . The reservation system would either tell you that there is a seat (and issue you with a reservation) or that one is unavailable and another train must be selected. In which case you will know this and have a coffee/meal in the warm.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I do not understand your phrase 'far better to have that choice than being told that there is space but you have to wait another hour in the cold' . The reservation system would either tell you that there is a seat (and issue you with a reservation) or that one is unavailable and another train must be selected. In which case you will know this and have a coffee/meal in the warm.

So basically you're saying that a passenger who is perfectly willing to stand, or take a seat of a passenger who potentially does not show, should be forced to wait around for what could be a considerable period of time which means that they have less time with their husband/wife and their kids because someone is stopping them from boarding a train that has space for them.

You also don't say how connections are going to work. If someone is in a rush to get somewhere and they miss their connection, I can tell you that they will not be happy if they are told they have to wait x amount of time for the next seat to become available when they have the option of standing that your plan doesn't give them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

And of course all this discussion completely ignores those pax doing short journeys by neccessity on Intercity trains, because these trains effectively provide all, or the bulk of, the local services. Think of the Lake District services between Carlisle and stations to Warrington. What are these pax supposed to do?

Diss to Norwich springs to mind around here as all of those journeys are Intercity.

 

[anme]

It really depends on the reasons for travel though and the industry you work in. If you're talking about long planned ahead business meetings that run to a specific time then of course, advance tickets will work for this kind of thing and my company would do the same also.

However in other peoples roles and the the majority of my travel I need to travel at short notice to for various reasons, not necessarily meetings and will not know the time that they are coming back straight away or even have time to consider that so flexibility really is key here.

I am not in favour of Virgin Train's plans. However, I don't agree with the point above. A lot of business travel is done by plane, where is is always necessary to have a reservation. People, including me, cope with that.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I am not in favour of Virgin Train's plans. However, I don't agree with the point above. A lot of business travel is done by plane, where is is always necessary to have a reservation. People, including me, cope with that.

It really depends on the nature of your travel and the nature of your work.

Most of my travel is within the East Anglia region (Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire) with a few trips down to London and occasionally trips elsewhere.

Having a turn-up and go option is vital to the railways.

 

[anme]

It really depends on the nature of your travel and the nature of your work.

Most of my travel is within the East Anglia region (Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire) with a few trips down to London and occasionally trips elsewhere.

Having a turn-up and go option is vital to the railways.

Requiring a reservation does not prevent "turn up and go". You just need a reservation system that allows passengers to make a reservation immediately before boarding a train - same as with air travel.

To be clear, I am not in favour of Virgin's proposal, but it doesn't prevent you travelling at very short notice.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Requiring a reservation does not prevent "turn up and go". You just need a reservation system that allows passengers to make a reservation immediately before boarding a train - same as with air travel.

And if there are no seats free, they should be forced to wait for what could be up to an hour, instead of having the option of standing, meaning an hour less with their husband/wife or kids?

If that happens, I'll simply go back to driving and expensing the milage and the operators will lose both my commuting revenue and business travel revenue.

 

[XC victim]

Surely there are a few obvious problems with the idea of compulsory reservations;

The fact that there are currently many passengers standing in intercity services is a clear indication that there currently is not the capacity for everyone to have a seat so either a massive increase in capacity or many passengers are going to be turned away and unable to travel (which either leads to a fall in passenger revenue or a big fare increase for the remaining passengers)

What happens when a service is cancelled and following services are fully reserved? What happens if the next service with available reservations is too late to meet onward connections.

What happens when a passenger is delayed on a local service and misses the intercity service where reservations are compulsory?

What about intercity services where connections are required? For example what are the chances of being able to reserve a seat on a service from Reading to Wolverhampton and from Wolverhampton to Carlisle?

What about those with Season Tickets? Do they have to go through the hassle of reserving seats everyday?

Would the price of fares decrease. Many people buy Off Peak and Anytime tickets purely so they are able to travel when they want. Surely if this is no longer possible the price of fares would have to decrease

 

[anme]

And if there are no seats free, they should be forced to wait for what could be up to an hour, instead of having the option of standing, meaning an hour less with their husband/wife or kids?

If that happens, I'll simply go back to driving and expensing the milage and the operators will lose both my commuting revenue and business travel revenue.

Allowing standing or not (which might still be controlled by compulsory reservation) is not the same as allowing or not "turn up and go". I know Virgin are proposing both.

The routes you say you use are not long distance intercity routes, so not likely candidates for this scheme anyway.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Allowing standing or not (which might still be controlled by compulsory reservation) is not the same as allowing or not "turn up and go". I know Virgin are proposing both.

The routes you say you use are not long distance intercity routes, so not likely candidates for this scheme anyway.

I also use London to Manchester and London to Birmingham among others and once or twice a year London to Scotland, I was just naming some of my most frequent routes.

The West Coast line's biggest problem for this scheme is Birmingham International.

 

[Meerkat]

The West Coast line's biggest problem for this scheme is Birmingham International.

Where do people go to by train after arriving by plane at Birmingham International ie do they really need to be on VWC? Genuine question btw.

 

[anme]

The West Coast line's biggest problem for this scheme is Birmingham International.

Why? As I told you above, "turn up and go" is possible as long as reservations can be made up to the moment of a train's departure.

(To be clear, I'm not in favour of such a scheme but I don't agree that it's impossible)

 

[Meerkat]

Commuters are a bigger technical problem than the airport.
I think the biggest question would be how to balance long distance and short distance trips - you wouldn’t want short trips booking out all the seats so no long distance trips can be booked.
The laziest solution is to let the short trips on without a reservation, as it isn’t for long.
Otherwise you allocate reservations without seats, but limited in number until the train has set off.
Best option of course is to have the capacity that commuters can be kept off LD trains.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Why? As I told you above, "turn up and go" is possible as long as reservations can be made up to the moment of a train's departure.

(To be clear, I'm not in favour of such a scheme but I don't agree that it's impossible)

That will also require reservation holders to "check-in", to ensure seats don't go empty. That increased the time required to board the train.

This is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Meerkat]

How many seats would go empty - the holder would have thrown away their ticket money if they don’t turn up.

 

[F Great Eastern]

flip flop flip flop flip flop flip flop

How many seats would go empty - the holder would have thrown away their ticket money if they don’t turn up.

So you're implying not many.

So who is booking all the unused reservations then?

But here you were implying there was many.

flip flop flip flop flip flop flip flop

 

[6Gman]

Quite. From reading this thread you would think everybody still brought their Edmundson tickets from the booking office like it was the nineteenth century or something, and that they would have to queue up and negotiate a replacement if they wanted to change their time of travel. Ridiculous.

But what about those of us who still do so? (Not the Edmondson, but my tickets are always purchased from the booking office or - less frequently - onboard)

 

[6Gman]

So basically you're saying that a passenger who is perfectly willing to stand, or take a seat of a passenger who potentially does not show, should be forced to wait around for what could be a considerable period of time which means that they have less time with their husband/wife and their kids because someone is stopping them from boarding a train that has space for them.

You also don't say how connections are going to work. If someone is in a rush to get somewhere and they miss their connection, I can tell you that they will not be happy if they are told they have to wait x amount of time for the next seat to become available when they have the option of standing that your plan doesn't give them.

Don't know what I'm doing right (or wrong) but on the rare occasions I travel on a heavily loaded train I'm happy if Mrs 6G has a seat, with me standing nearby. Presumably that would no longer be an option. Or would I be ordered to a seat three carriages away?

 

[6Gman]

That will also require reservation holders to "check-in", to ensure seats don't go empty. That increased the time required to board the train.

This is a solution looking for a problem.

The very phrase I was going to use.



99.9% of the time I'd be happier to stand than to be unable to travel.

 

[pt_mad]

Who can actually see this idea getting off the ground? It's only one TOC's suggestion at this point isn't it?

There are lots of West Coast services with standing passengers. The Coventry corridor is the obvious place which springs to mind. I can't personally see the DFT being comfortable with the Intercity West Coast operator turning passengers away at stations, or forcing them onto local semi fast services. And I can't see the future West Coast operator being able to turn away so much business and having to limit their model on the number of available seats. The system may not cope. Fast paths are mostly taken, and most trains are at maximum length of 11 coaches, with no mention of lengthening anymore at this point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What has it got to do with leisure passengers? What about the business passenger who has booked their seat planning to get some work done then reservations are cancelled and they are crush loaded standing up.
People are booking something and not getting it - that isn’t acceptable.

Most if not all the IC TOCs give a partial refund if a seat is reserved but not available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh would you stop it with your red herrings and your strawman arguments, if a train is late so reservation slips are put in or the reservation system fails that is going to happen with or without compulsory reservations.

No, it won't. If you have compulsory reservations there is no need to mark them at all because everyone knows their seat number.

It's for that reason I favour reserved/unreserved coaches with reservations no longer marked. In a reserved coach, if you wish to sit there you must obtain a reservation, from the ticket office, TVM, your phone or the guard. In an unreserved coach, no seats are reserved and you may sit where you wish. Best of both worlds.