Caledonian Sleeper

[WesternLancer]

I assumed it was brought in as part of the 'hotel on wheels' conceit. In a hotel you check in at reception then you find your room. Thing is, it's not a hotel, it's an overnight train, and in fact it has something a hotel doesn't, which is someome dedicated to looking after your carriage through the journey. The check-in system manages to make people unaware of this, gets them to fill in forms to hang on the door for collection by an anonymous entity, and leaves them trying to get information via twitter.

Seems to me like a fixing (or breaking) of something that wasn't broken.

Yes, points v well made.

 

[Highlandspring]

Appreciate there is still alot of teething troubles on the mk5s but last nights northbound lowlander was nothing but shambolical...

Go on, share the pain...

 

[WesternLancer]

If enough people complain about the check in process perhaps Serco will get rid of it in favour of something else?

Others may have had the same but 2 days after travel (my ticket had been sent to me by e-mail so they had it) I had a survey request from both CS, AND from Transport Focus on behalf of CS - with specific question about the 'check in' process.

I assume one reason for it is to deal with the scenario whereby have they not reduced the ration of attendants from 1 per coach to 1 per 2 coaches, so a welcome in the carriage may not be easy for staff to do at that ratio, given the time window? Not sure when this happened or if I am correct about it but others will know.

 

[WesternLancer]

Indeed, and you would think a predominantly overnight train operator would be amongst the first to invest...

You still need people on duty to actually tweet though don't you, and CS don't operate many trains per day compared with most TOCs (a reason I thought it daft to separate it from the main scotrail franchise actually), so the employment of such extra people would be a high percentage extra cost.

 

[WesternLancer]

It could reduce the pressure on the on-train staff who already have their hands full instead of them answering the same question over and over and over again and I don't know if you've heard, but things like twitter do work from places other than customer service centres, so it could be handed over to someone on a train when the centre shuts if wanted. As others have hinted, having individual accounts or webpages for each train and updating on-board displays could be a cool double-purpose of it.

Yes, but in my experience the last thing most corperate marketing and PR departments ever permit is the idea of handing over responsibility for such things to front line staff....
I doubt they want the world to know (from their own staff) that the bar has run out of x, y does not work tonight etc etc....

 

[Bletchleyite]

You still need people on duty to actually tweet though don't you, and CS don't operate many trains per day compared with most TOCs (a reason I thought it daft to separate it from the main scotrail franchise actually), so the employment of such extra people would be a high percentage extra cost.

CS presumably must have at least one member of control staff who is on overnight and is only controlling a small number of trains.

 

[MylesHSG]

It's not in a controllers or on board staffs job description to update social media. These people have other duties to attend to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not in a controllers or on board staffs job description to update social media. These people have other duties to attend to.

Typical railway job ringfencing. There is no reason they could not have these additional duties (I'm talking broadcast type stuff, not answering queries). For instance, quite a number of the Eurostar guards have their own Twitter, encouraged by the company, and Tweet their journey when they get a spare minute.

Just because it isn't someone's job to do something now doesn't mean it should never be their job. And on something like CS, the guard is not going to be doing something at all times.

 

[MylesHSG]

Typical railway job ringfencing. There is no reason they could not have these additional duties (I'm talking broadcast type stuff, not answering queries). For instance, quite a number of the Eurostar guards have their own Twitter, encouraged by the company, and Tweet their journey when they get a spare minute.

Just because it isn't someone's job to do something now doesn't mean it should never be their job. And on something like CS, the guard is not going to be doing something at all times.

That's fine if agreed by staff and unions and an appropriate pay increase for the extra work involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's fine if agreed by staff and unions and an appropriate pay increase for the extra work involved.

The railway is a different world at times, isn't it? In every other industry you do as you're told and you would absolutely not get any extra money for simply doing work your employer needed doing during idle time in the course of your employment.

 

[WesternLancer]

That's fine if agreed by staff and unions and an appropriate pay increase for the extra work involved.

This is actually the way it should be in my personal view. BUT there is another way - which is along these lines....

Frustrations of the sort detailed here annoy passengers who use another mode, and the reputational damage plus reduced income comes to the greater attention of Transport Scotland / DfT who take the view that there is no longer any value in subsidising the service given the subsidy profile would need to increase. They pull the plug at the end of the franchise and the only negotiation going on with the staff and unions is their redundancy package....

There are a lot of people, and many politicians I suspect, who subscribe to the second view.

I mean it's not as if the sleeper market in the UK is expanding with new routes as other threads on here that document the decline of routes over the last 25 years or so illustrate.

However, my experience the other night was that for the 1st 90 to 120 mins of the journey - which is the key time that matters to most passengers as they are still awake - all the staff I saw were genuinely really busy and rushed off their feet. Maybe there were other staff hiding away that I didn't see, and clearly later on when it is less busy the staff may have time to do things like social media updates, but at the key time when most people might be asking, I doubt that they did, even though the idea has obvious benefits.

 

[BRX]

Actually I think social media stuff requires a certain level of special skill - diplomacy and not accidentally using a turn of phrase that could cause offence, and so on. So it's not necessarily reasonable to expect any member of staff to be able to take on this responsibility.

 

[WesternLancer]

Going back to the boarding / check in issue, and staff workload in general the key issue I observe is the demand for 'everything to happen' in a very short time window before departure (a hotel, for example, would not expect all the guests to arrive in a very short time window). Then also there are all the queries from passengers just boarded who are unfamiliar with cabins etc, plus a daft demand on the brek menu form asking you to give it in something like within 30 mins of departure creating more rush etc etc

This problem extends to the staff in the bar car who are too busy coping with the number of people requesting service in the window of time immediately prior and after departure, there are not enough staff to deliver on the expectation of the pre journey publicity (eg ref food service), as CS are much hyping their food offer which creates demand at this core time.

Logic would suggest the provision of some staff that just work the train for this 'early journey' leg, - eg travel north as far as say the Crewe or Preston stop on the highlander, as clearly later on when more people are sleeping, there is less need for staff doing those duties. Or even just platform check in staff that allowed train staff to focus on customer service on board only at this vital time window.

Of course the fragmented nature of the railway, plus the shift patterns that this would create, would, I assume make this very hard to do. But of course in much of the zero hours culture of the hospitality industry, this is probably what would happen.

 

[MylesHSG]

The railway is a different world at times, isn't it? In every other industry you do as you're told and you would absolutely not get any extra money for simply doing work your employer needed doing during idle time in the course of your employment.

I think the main difference is we're not bootlickers subservient to our pay masters.

 

[WesternLancer]

The other part of the 'journey experience' that is a problem is 'space management' in the lounge car.

Obviously a great asset, but the problem is there is too much demand for it during the relatively short period between departure and the time people want to go to bed. The staff are rushed to meet the demand, and people are being turned away because there is no room, so discretionary spending is reduced - not CS's best interests!

Basically the space is not well 'managed' - in the sense that tables at least would be better reserved for people who want to eat. Some tables were occupied by people just having a cup of tea (thus not spending much money) yet people who want to eat (who might spend £20 to £30) got turned away. This does not make business sense for CS, and was frustrating to passengers who might well have been hungry. Cabin space makes it not easy to eat there as a fall back.

Again, not as easy as it sounds to do, but something where there is at least a financial incentive to get right, at least in the window of time when demand for eating might be expected, say up to maybe 22.00 perhaps.

 

[JModulo]

Go on, share the pain...

Late inbound arrival of the empties due to "technical issues" with coaches at Wembley. Stock eventually arrived in about 2320. All passengers told to wait on the concourse from staff and told they would be collected when the train is ready. Meanwhile we were left with no facilities due to plumbing problems at Euston, and even those with medical issues like myself were told "you'll just need to go to Kings Cross". Boarding eventually starts at 0020. I had booked onto the Edinburgh portion however unbeknown to me they had swapped me onto the Glasgow portion due to some coaches being out of use, so I was then stuck with the option of getting up at 0545 for Carstairs or staying on until Glasgow and catching a train through. The other passengers in the same situation as me were told a staff member would come to sort things out... they didn't. Eventually got settled and train departed about 0100. Wanted to have a shower but it then appeared the toilet in my room was leaking effluent. I contacted a host about this but was basically told "tough, not much we can do the train is full". Would appear the toilets aren't up to much with atleast 4 only flushing once before then locking themselves out of use. The ride compared to a mk3 wasn't as good (in the centre of the coach) and the temperature didn't seem to want to adjust either.

 

[Scotrail84]

The railway is a different world at times, isn't it? In every other industry you do as you're told and you would absolutely not get any extra money for simply doing work your employer needed doing during idle time in the course of your employment.

That is quite simply not true and you know that.

 

[33Hz]

Late inbound arrival of the empties due to "technical issues" with coaches at Wembley. Stock eventually arrived in about 2320. All passengers told to wait on the concourse from staff and told they would be collected when the train is ready. Meanwhile we were left with no facilities due to plumbing problems at Euston, and even those with medical issues like myself were told "you'll just need to go to Kings Cross". Boarding eventually starts at 0020. I had booked onto the Edinburgh portion however unbeknown to me they had swapped me onto the Glasgow portion due to some coaches being out of use, so I was then stuck with the option of getting up at 0545 for Carstairs or staying on until Glasgow and catching a train through. The other passengers in the same situation as me were told a staff member would come to sort things out... they didn't. Eventually got settled and train departed about 0100. Wanted to have a shower but it then appeared the toilet in my room was leaking effluent. I contacted a host about this but was basically told "tough, not much we can do the train is full". Would appear the toilets aren't up to much with atleast 4 only flushing once before then locking themselves out of use. The ride compared to a mk3 wasn't as good (in the centre of the coach) and the temperature didn't seem to want to adjust either.

I saw the incoming stock arrived at 23:18 on RTT but the outbound 1S26 is showing as having departed on time at 23:50.

 

[JModulo]

I saw the incoming stock arrived at 23:18 on RTT but the outbound 1S26 is showing as having departed on time at 23:50.

RTT was down last night.

 

[trebor79]

The railway is a different world at times, isn't it? In every other industry you do as you're told and you would absolutely not get any extra money for simply doing work your employer needed doing during idle time in the course of your employment.

That is quite simply not true and you know that.

I'll second what Bletchleyite says. In the industries I've worked in the phrase "reasonable request" is used to deal with recalcitrant employees who aren't prepared to do more than the bare minimum on the job description. Most contracts of employment will have a clause stating that duties aren't limited to those described and the the employee is expected to carry out any duties requested, providing they are suitable trained and competent of course.
The railway does seem to exist in its own little bubble where nothing can happen without extensive union negotiation and employees being showered with more money where this would not be the case in another line of work.

 

[Scotrail84]

I'll second what Bletchleyite says. In the industries I've worked in the phrase "reasonable request" is used to deal with recalcitrant employees who aren't prepared to do more than the bare minimum on the job description. Most contracts of employment will have a clause stating that duties aren't limited to those described and the the employee is expected to carry out any duties requested, providing they are suitable trained and competent of course.
The railway does seem to exist in its own little bubble where nothing can happen without extensive union negotiation and employees being showered with more money where this would not be the case in another line of work.

You can second it all you like, still doesn't make it true. I think you'll find that most railway employees already go above and beyond what is expected of them, especially those on the sleeper trains for whom it has been extremely challenging since the MK5s entered service.

Thats why industries have have unions, to preserve pay and conditions and contrary to popular belief railway employees do not ask to be showered with money every time their company wants to adapt working practices or try new procedures.

 

[adrock1976]

Typical railway job ringfencing. There is no reason they could not have these additional duties (I'm talking broadcast type stuff, not answering queries). For instance, quite a number of the Eurostar guards have their own Twitter, encouraged by the company, and Tweet their journey when they get a spare minute.

Just because it isn't someone's job to do something now doesn't mean it should never be their job. And on something like CS, the guard is not going to be doing something at all times.

That's fine if agreed by staff and unions and an appropriate pay increase for the extra work involved.

The railway is a different world at times, isn't it? In every other industry you do as you're told and you would absolutely not get any extra money for simply doing work your employer needed doing during idle time in the course of your employment.

A former small company that my brother worked for in the late 1980s/early 90s was that his job description was to solely service and repair heavy plant vehicles. When a couple of his workmates left (one of them was the yard supervisor, the other was the secretary who was responsible for enquiries and booking in the vehicles that needed servicing, and signing them off when complete), instead of new recruits to replace the people who left, the work was dumped onto my brother.

Instead of having his pay tripled as my brother was doing three peoples' jobs at the same time, he still only got the same pay as if it was his own role he was doing. Needless to say, he soon left after a workplace accident happened and found another company who valued their staff.

 

[WesternLancer]

That is quite simply not true and you know that.

I disagree with you - but the post stated every other industry, which is also not true, but I would say in 'most'. On the example given it's perhaps kind of akin to a scenario where a team of staff in an office answer their own desk phones, but get asked to answer phones for a colleague when they are out of the office. The idea that that would be a change that would prompt union involvement, at least in my workplace, would be laughed at by both other staff, and even I think, by the union reps.

But yes, also it is the case that loads of rail staff go above and beyond as you say.

 

[6Z09]

The railway is a different world at times, isn't it? In every other industry you do as you're told and you would absolutely not get any extra money for simply doing work your employer needed doing during idle time in the course of your employment.

The reason staff are being balloted by the union is that they are already being asked to do the impossible!
Idle time! That would be nice.

 

[trebor79]

You can second it all you like, still doesn't make it true. I think you'll find that most railway employees already go above and beyond what is expected of them, especially those on the sleeper trains for whom it has been extremely challenging since the MK5s entered service.

Thats why industries have have unions, to preserve pay and conditions and contrary to popular belief railway employees do not ask to be showered with money every time their company wants to adapt working practices or try new procedures.

I agree that the CS staff work hard, and my dealings with them have always been pleasant in what I can imagine are stressful circumstances at times.
I was more making a general observation, that in most industries being asked to take on an additional duty is seen as normal, and not usually seen as some form of negotiation to get more money.
Not all, but certainly it's the norm.

 

[marks87]

I saw the incoming stock arrived at 23:18 on RTT but the outbound 1S26 is showing as having departed on time at 23:50.

RTT was down last night.

An outstanding illustration of people putting too much faith in Realtime Trains (RTT): "I'm going to question your first-hand account because RTT disagrees".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats why industries have have unions, to preserve pay and conditions and contrary to popular belief railway employees do not ask to be showered with money every time their company wants to adapt working practices or try new procedures.

Er, that's exactly what @MylesHSG said he would do.

 

[BRX]

The other part of the 'journey experience' that is a problem is 'space management' in the lounge car.

Obviously a great asset, but the problem is there is too much demand for it during the relatively short period between departure and the time people want to go to bed. The staff are rushed to meet the demand, and people are being turned away because there is no room, so discretionary spending is reduced - not CS's best interests!

Basically the space is not well 'managed' - in the sense that tables at least would be better reserved for people who want to eat. Some tables were occupied by people just having a cup of tea (thus not spending much money) yet people who want to eat (who might spend £20 to £30) got turned away. This does not make business sense for CS, and was frustrating to passengers who might well have been hungry. Cabin space makes it not easy to eat there as a fall back.

Again, not as easy as it sounds to do, but something where there is at least a financial incentive to get right, at least in the window of time when demand for eating might be expected, say up to maybe 22.00 perhaps.

Having two (or maybe even 3) 'sittings' I think would help, with a set number of spaces reservable for each. Part of my reason for a dash to the lounge car upon boarding, is that if when you first show up there's no space, you don't then know when you're going to be able to eat. If, on boarding at 9 I knew I had a dinner space reserved at 10, that's probably better than pot luck whether I get to eat at 9 or at 11.

The downside of this would be that there might no longer be the opportunity to lounge around in the lounge car for the entire evening...but it would probably be fairer overall.

The other issue, which increases passenger anxiety, is that they often seem to run out of a load of stuff so if you get in there late, half or more of the menu choices have evaporated. I'd have thought this ought not to be *too* hard to avoid but I've never been in charge of managing such a thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having two (or maybe even 3) 'sittings' I think would help, with a set number of spaces reservable for each. Part of my reason for a dash to the lounge car upon boarding, is that if when you first show up there's no space, you don't then know when you're going to be able to eat. If, on boarding at 9 I knew I had a dinner space reserved at 10, that's probably better than pot luck whether I get to eat at 9 or at 11.

The downside of this would be that there might no longer be the opportunity to lounge around in the lounge car for the entire evening...but it would probably be fairer overall.

The other issue, which increases passenger anxiety, is that they often seem to run out of a load of stuff so if you get in there late, half or more of the menu choices have evaporated. I'd have thought this ought not to be *too* hard to avoid but I've never been in charge of managing such a thing.

It does seem that a good way to avoid all of this would indeed be to have "sittings" (as many other international trains do, e.g. the Canadian) and to have people incentivised in some way to prebook their meal online (which means they can load the right amount of everything).

 

[Scotrail84]

Er, that's exactly what @MylesHSG said he would do.

I'm not bothered what he said he'd do. The point is staff do not demand more money every time a company wants to try something different contrary to what has been implied.