The 2019 General Election Result and Aftermath

[TheBigD]

How would you feel if your country had done what it has done to me?

Er, along with 65 million others it is my country. Governments make decisions that I don't agree with, cost me money, reduce options etc all the time.

Punishing others through boycotts of businesses etc (many of whom will share your support of remain) helps them and you how? Hurting others might make you feel good for a while, but it's loathsome and invites a response, which is unlikely to be in your interest.

 

[AlterEgo]

why would any one want to stay in the UK, given half the chance to get out.

Because it is my home, and having travelled to more than fifty countries I still prefer it to anywhere else.

 

[notlob.divad]

Because it is my home, and having travelled to more than fifty countries I still prefer it to anywhere else.

I wish I could say the same. Not anymore though.

 

[bramling]

So it is OK if they destroy my life?

Im afraid that if Brexit really is going to destroy your life then your life is too fragile.

Every choice has benefits and costs. Fact is a majority of people have made the judgement that the benefits of this one outweigh the costs. Whether this turns out to be true will come clear over time, however people now need to accept the reality.

If people aren’t happy that they’re losing freedom of movement, the root cause of that appears to be the eastward expansion resulting in a massive increase in numbers, and nothing done to mitigate against that.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Im afraid that if Brexit really is going to destroy your life then your life is too fragile.

Every choice has benefits and costs. Fact is a majority of people have made the judgement that the benefits of this one outweigh the costs. Whether this turns out to be true will come clear over time, however people now need to accept the reality.

If people aren’t happy that they’re losing freedom of movement, the root cause of that appears to be the eastward expansion resulting in a massive increase in numbers, and nothing done to mitigate against that.

There are no downsides, only considerable upsides.....

 

[alex397]

I nearly applied for a university course in Amsterdam, and I wish I took that opportunity now. But the UK seemed like a great place to stay back then, with a stable future. That has certainly changed.

Of course, there is nothing stopping me moving now, and as my life isn't really going as I would like to, it might be a good fresh start for me.

 

[Enthusiast]

The people of the north voted en masse for Brexit and that is unforgivable. They could have put it right by not voting Tory last week.

I will never accept it. NEVER!

My life and many other people's lives are going to be SERIOUSLY AFFECTED!

I will lose free movement and thus won't be able to retire abroad.

The UK doesn't have anything like the same quality of cycling infrastructure or public transport. It also has stupid laws on drugs and euthanasia

[Plus many more]

I’ve never read such a load of wallowing, morose, self-pitying drivel in a long time. For God’s sake, man, get a grip! If you really want to emigrate do it now. Brexit has not just crept up on you; it’s been more than three years in the making and is not done yet. I suppose you assumed that the wishes of 17.4m people would be simply brushed aside (as has been opined by many Remainers for the last three and a half years) so that you could retire to Holland, smoke cannabis, ride round on your bike into your dotage and finally top yourself in the State-approved manner when it all gets too much. I’ve never heard such nonsense.

Incredible as it may seem, Brexit isn’t all about you. The people who voted to leave did not do so thinking “Ah! I know what I’ll do. I’ll vote to leave and that will really stich that radamfi right up. That will certainly spoil his chances of a happy retirement.” People voted to leave for all sorts of reasons but of one thing I can be sure – none of them did so with the intention of ruining your plans. The people of the North will get by without your forgiveness and whether you accept that the UK is leaving the EU or not it looks like you're stuck with it.

Your life has not been ruined or destroyed. You're being excessively melodramatic. You've simply got to amend your plans. As mentioned, people have to do that all the time. It's called life. People whose lives have been ruined include those that have lost limbs or been otherwise seriously injured in accidents. Any one of them would be more than pleased to live the rest of their lives with good health as you probably enjoy, wherever they happened to be. In any case, it might well be that whatever arrangements the EU and the UK come to in the coming months and years may well include facilities for you to do as you'd planned. UK people did retire abroad before the EU. If not you'll have to think of something else.

 

[notlob.divad]

Im afraid that if Brexit really is going to destroy your life then your life is too fragile.

There is many a fragile life that is going to be destroy by Brexit over the coming years.

 

[Enthusiast]

There is many a fragile life that is going to be destroy by Brexit over the coming years.

Really? People need to become a little more robust then because if membership of the EU is so vital to your very being you need to change.

 

[Geezertronic]

Like elsewhere on the internet, I do fear for some peoples mental health as some of the responses internet-wide and on this thread alone are ridiculous. Had the election gone the other way, I wonder whether these same people would be scathing in their reaction if "the losing side" protested in the same way.

The protests that were in London say a lot. I also do hope the woman who wished Boris Johnson a horrible death gets her (non-horrible death) comeuppance even if it is just that she has made herself unemployable

 

[Comstock]

Really? People need to become a little more robust then because if membership of the EU is so vital to your very being you need to change.

Well yes. Although I think your rollicking of radamfi was a little harsh, I think even some Remainers are starting to realise this isn't the end of the world, especially if we can avoid no deal.

 

[43066]

why would any one want to stay in the UK, given half the chance to get out.

Plenty of reasons, off the top of my head:

- a benign and stable democracy;
- a well established legal system (that has
been copied around the world);
- freedom of speech, and respect for individual liberty, you won’t “disappear” if you criticise the government;
- a temperate climate;
- access to world class universities and education;
- access to jobs in a range of fields.

The advantages of living in the U.K. over and above many, many other countries in the world should be obvious! It’s a shame that so many indigenous Brits have grown so used to these advantages that, like spoilt children, they have become blind to them and don’t realise how lucky they are.

If the UK was so awful we wouldn’t have hundreds of thousands of people moving here from abroad every year.

 

[edwin_m]

It's now irrelevant. Brexit will be done and dusted by the next GE. Labour need to forget their mistake and move on.

As far as I'm concerned Labour need to do what they can to oppose it, which will be ineffective. Then by the next election it will probably have gone wrong enough that they can use it as an issue against the Tories.

I have a loathing beyond contempt for Nigel Farage and his band of merry men.

However the one thing that could get me agreeing with him in a post Brexit world, is abolition of the House of Lords a fully elected second chamber, and Proportional Representation. - I recognise that just like Brexit the idea of departing from what we have is the easy part, the complex thing is getting agreement for exactly what to replace it with.

I suspect if it's proposed by Farage it will be another little Englander stitch-up disguised as a great democratic reform. Tories won't support PR - chlorinated Turkeys voting for Christmas - but if Labour moves back to the centre then it ought to.

How would you feel if your country had done what it has done to me?

It's only 17-odd million voters, some of whom may have seen the error of their ways, plus a small group of politicians who have seized on that for their own purposes. While I am intensely critical of most of this government's policies especially Brexit, I don't see why even the 17 million, let alone the rest of us, should be punished any more than we are going to be anyway.

 

[Enthusiast]

Although I think your rollicking of radamfi was a little harsh,

My view got worse the more responses I saw. How else can you respond to somebody whose sole contribution to what should be a reasonable debate is to wail over and over again that their "life has been destroyed"? It's a political decision that clearly will affect many people in different ways. But to suggest that his life has been destroyed because he can't retire to Holland? Such stuff happens all the time. Many women had their retirement plans ruined by the deferment of their State Pension. Yes they were annoyed. Yes it caused some of them severe inconvenience and meant they had to alter their plans. But was their life "destroyed"? I don't think so.

 

[edwin_m]

Plenty of reasons, off the top of my head:

- a benign and stable democracy;
- a well established legal system (that has
been copied around the world);
- freedom of speech, and respect for individual liberty, you won’t “disappear” if you criticise the government;
- a temperate climate;
- access to world class universities and education;
- access to jobs in a range of fields.

The advantages of living in the U.K. over and above many, many other countries in the world should be obvious! It’s a shame that so many indigenous Brits have grown so used to these advantages that, like spoilt children, they have become blind to them and don’t realise how lucky they are.

If the UK was so awful we wouldn’t have hundreds of thousands of people moving here from abroad every year.

All of which are under threat to some degree from:

• The stated intention to limit the power of the courts do intervene in what is considered government business
• The way the government has ridden roughshod on Brexit
• The probability that pledges on combatting climate change will be forgotten
• The loss of creative interaction with other European countries due to restrictions on free movement and the fact that much of Europe now sees Britain as closed to new people and ideas
• Damage to employment due to loss of inward investment

I'm not saying all those reasons will disappear tomorrow, but the indications are they will head in the wrong direction.

 

[radamfi]

UK people did retire abroad before the EU.

Why do people still come out with this stuff? For the last time, before the EU, immigration was much less strictly controlled. So it is not a valid comparison.

 

[radamfi]

- a benign and stable democracy;

It is obviously not a democracy! FPTP is not democratic, therefore the UK is not a democracy.

 

[furnessvale]

The protests that were in London say a lot. I also do hope the woman who wished Boris Johnson a horrible death gets her (non-horrible death) comeuppance even if it is just that she has made herself unemployable

Given her chosen employment, I sincerely hope so!

 

[notlob.divad]

Really? People need to become a little more robust then because if membership of the EU is so vital to your very being you need to change.

If some employers decides that without EU market access they need to downsize their UK operations, then yes a lot of people who might already be 'just about managing' might find themselves in the middle of a perfect storm.
Equally people in the contracting and services proffesions who can currentky work in every EU country, but may need seperate work permits for every clieny in every country. The administrative burdon placed on them might make their business untenable.

 

[43066]

It is obviously not a democracy! FPTP is not democratic, therefore the UK is not a democracy.

Yes it is, according to any ordinary definition of the word.

FPTP is one system of democracy, AV/PR are other systems, all with their own advantages and disadvantages. You should remember that AV was also rejected by the U.K. electorate a few years ago in favour of retaining FPTP, so hardly undemocratic.

Of course the Brexit referendum itself was nothing to do with first past the post - it was a single issue vote - the purest form of direct democracy!

 

[43066]

All of which are under threat to some degree from:

• The stated intention to limit the power of the courts do intervene in what is considered government business
• The way the government has ridden roughshod on Brexit
• The probability that pledges on combatting climate change will be forgotten
• The loss of creative interaction with other European countries due to restrictions on free movement and the fact that much of Europe now sees Britain as closed to new people and ideas
• Damage to employment due to loss of inward investment

I'm not saying all those reasons will disappear tomorrow, but the indications are they will head in the wrong direction.

I’m not sure it’s right to say any government has “ridden roughshod on Brexit” - the previous government was prevented from implementing their version of brexit by Parliament. The new government has been returned with a majority after promising to implement Brexit.

Re the other things you point out, the courts certainly should not be interfering in government business. The Supreme Court judgement declaring the prorogation of unlawful Parliament sailed pretty close to the wind, in this respect.

I would argue that Brexit does not make the UK closed by any means. If people in Europe want to interpret it like that, that’s up to them.

It’s down to the current government, and future governments, to ensure that the U.K. remains attractive to businesses to ensure that inward investment continues.

As for the climate change bandwagon, that should also be the subject of domestic policy set by own government, not imposed from abroad. If the UK government wishes to deviate from the EU’s approach to that issue (or any other), why is that a bad thing?

 

[radamfi]

Yes it is, according to any ordinary definition of the word.

325 seats: Conservative 50%, Labour 1%, Lib Dem 49%
325 seats: Labour 50%, Conservative 1%, Lib Dem 49%

Share of the vote (assuming equal population in each seat):
Lib Dem 49%
Conservative 25.5%
Labour 25.5%

Total seats
Conservative 325
Labour 325
Lib Dem 0

 

[edwin_m]

I’m not sure it’s right to say any government has “ridden roughshod on Brexit” - the previous government was prevented from implementing their version of brexit by Parliament. The new government has been returned with a majority after promising to implement Brexit.

Re the other things you point out, the courts certainly should not be interfering in government business. The Supreme Court judgement declaring the prorogation of unlawful Parliament sailed pretty close to the wind, in this respect.

I would argue that Brexit does not make the UK closed by any means. If people in Europe want to interpret it like that, that’s up to them.

No point in continuing this discussion. Another one where we're never going to agree.

 

[notlob.divad]

Plenty of reasons, off the top of my head:

- a benign and stable democracy;
- a well established legal system (that has
been copied around the world);
- freedom of speech, and respect for individual liberty, you won’t “disappear” if you criticise the government;
- a temperate climate;
- access to world class universities and education;
- access to jobs in a range of fields.

The advantages of living in the U.K. over and above many, many other countries in the world should be obvious! It’s a shame that so many indigenous Brits have grown so used to these advantages that, like spoilt children, they have become blind to them and don’t realise how lucky they are.

If the UK was so awful we wouldn’t have hundreds of thousands of people moving here from abroad every year.

- a benign and stable democracy; - Johnson has already begun undermining the foundations of that. The Supreme Court, the independece of the Media, and Gerymandering the voting system have all been anounced. - Plus todays announcement that certain sections of the workforce are going to have their right to withhold labour removed. Combined with democratic illigitamcy of 43% of the vote winning 56% of the seats. I question that assumption. The UK certainly does not meet the full seperation of powers given the Legislator and the Executive are effectively one and the same once the Prime Minister has a big enough majority. Several times the UK has been described as an elected dictatorship because of the over-riding power held by the Prime Minister on behalf of the Monach.

- a well established legal system (that has been copied around the world); Copied and improved upon. Once again, as above you seem to be on the verge of loosing this. You might personally realise how lucky you are, but do enough people realise to do something about it as the pillars start getting eroded. - You also soon won't have the backup of the European Union to hold your government to account, as they have attempted to do with Hungary and Poland.

- freedom of speech, and respect for individual liberty, you won’t “disappear” if you criticise the government; - Once again for how long, The BBC and Channel 4 are already in the crosshairs. Experts, Liberals, remainers and socialists are all being targetted. And I am not sure everyone would agree that you won't 'disappear', It may not be as widespread as in some places, but there are certainly instances where suspision around deaths is very close to the establishment and security services.


- a temperate climate;
- access to world class universities and education;
- access to jobs in a range of fields.

- All available in many other European / Western countries, without the aformentioned slide towards dictatorship.

 

[notlob.divad]

I suspect if it's proposed by Farage it will be another little Englander stitch-up disguised as a great democratic reform. Tories won't support PR - chlorinated Turkeys voting for Christmas - but if Labour moves back to the centre then it ought to.

Agreed, I suspect it would be a stich up and we will have to watch him very carefully over the coming years. Labour should back it either way, the left is too fragmented and has been for years. They should be leading a coalition for electoral reform, but whenever they get a majority they have banked it and defended FPTP, it is a ridiculous situation.

 

[notlob.divad]

All of which are under threat to some degree from:

• The stated intention to limit the power of the courts do intervene in what is considered government business
• The way the government has ridden roughshod on Brexit
• The probability that pledges on combatting climate change will be forgotten
• The loss of creative interaction with other European countries due to restrictions on free movement and the fact that much of Europe now sees Britain as closed to new people and ideas
• Damage to employment due to loss of inward investment

I'm not saying all those reasons will disappear tomorrow, but the indications are they will head in the wrong direction.

Attempted to answer this myself. You have done a much better job. I defer my answer above to yours.

 

[notlob.divad]

Yes it is, according to any ordinary definition of the word.

FPTP is one system of democracy, AV/PR are other systems, all with their own advantages and disadvantages. You should remember that AV was also rejected by the U.K. electorate a few years ago in favour of retaining FPTP, so hardly undemocratic.

Of course the Brexit referendum itself was nothing to do with first past the post - it was a single issue vote - the purest form of direct democracy!

You have a very warped view of democracy. Democracy is not a vote. Democracy is not the system of counting those votes. Democracy is the entire system; the seperation of powers, the checks and balances, the oversight of the decision making process, and the consent of the people. If the consent of the people leads to the undermining of the other systems, it doesn't mean you still have a democracy because the people voted as such. The UK is already a damaged democracy as the relationship between the executive and the legislator is too close, the revising chamber and the head of state are unelected. 80% of the print media is in the control of a handfull of foreign businessmen, once the courts and the broadcast media have been dismantled, and the constituency boundries jiggled to ensure one party politics, the transformation will be complete. Without a written constitution there is no serious way of restricting the power that can be consentrated in a few hands.

The UK may currently be a democracy, but there is plenty of signs that you might not be able to describe it as such in a few years time.

 

[Esker-pades]

Your life has not been ruined or destroyed. You're being excessively melodramatic. You've simply got to amend your plans. As mentioned, people have to do that all the time. It's called life. People whose lives have been ruined include those that have lost limbs or been otherwise seriously injured in accidents. Any one of them would be more than pleased to live the rest of their lives with good health as you probably enjoy, wherever they happened to be. In any case, it might well be that whatever arrangements the EU and the UK come to in the coming months and years may well include facilities for you to do as you'd planned. UK people did retire abroad before the EU. If not you'll have to think of something else.

It is very unwise to tell people you don't know what will or will not happen to their lives. Don't do it.

Also, 'not ruining lives' is a fantastically low bar to set.

 

[ainsworth74]

Also, 'not ruining lives' is a fantastically low bar to set.

Bit of a goal post move for Brexit that! From overwhelming positives to at least it won't ruin lives!

 

[Peter Kelford]

There is many a fragile life that is going to be destroy by Brexit over the coming years.

If there was a like button, I'd press it.

Plenty of reasons, off the top of my head:

- a benign and stable democracy;
- a well established legal system (that has
been copied around the world);
- freedom of speech, and respect for individual liberty, you won’t “disappear” if you criticise the government;
- a temperate climate;
- access to world class universities and education;
- access to jobs in a range of fields.

The advantages of living in the U.K. over and above many, many other countries in the world should be obvious! It’s a shame that so many indigenous Brits have grown so used to these advantages that, like spoilt children, they have become blind to them and don’t realise how lucky they are.

If the UK was so awful we wouldn’t have hundreds of thousands of people moving here from abroad every year.

A benign and stable democracy: Stable does not suggest a perpetually changing government. Equally, disproportionate representation and an intention to further emphasise this with constituency 'reforms' also isn't democratic. Even worse, a change to 'electoral law' that the pro-Conservative The Times is saying is to 'eye 10 years in no.10'. The same article suggests 'wider constitutional reform'. The New Statesman's headline reads 'The Conservatives will use their triumph to ruthlessly reshape British democracy'. Unfortunately, the last major country to do this was China, where the president changed the constitution to presidential terms lasting 'until death or retirement'.

A Well Established legal system: Common law has been copied around the world from our colonial era. Frankly, many fledgeling nations have had other things to think about in its founding days and didn't change the legal system. These days, it would be too hard to change. Many countries have made significant changes to it to suit their needs. I also make reference to @notlob.divad and his response and say that the EU does hold governments to account.

Freedom of speech, respect for liberty and not being 'disappearing': You are free to speak, however, our laws related to freedom of expression are extremely strict. A lot cannot be said for seemingly reasonable reasons. Others, however, are not so reasonable. For instance, a picture of a child taken by a proud teacher (with verbal consent from the parents and/or child) saying (for example) 'My pupil Jack Smith just got an A* for his GCSEs at St. Joe's School' gets the teacher suspended.

Equally, in the land for Liberty, Equality and Unity, far-right commentators are admitted onto TV to say things like 'you are not French, because you have an African-sounding name', or even 'When General Bugeaud arrived in Algeria, he started to massacre the Muslims and even some Jews. Today, I am on his side.' Both are rough translations of M. Eric Zemmour on French terrestrial TV. Admittedly, he was investigated by the prosecutor for the second.

Looking at the BBC, they already are generally inclined to favour the government of the day. Furthermore, Boris Johnson has threatened to cut funding of the company (TV License decriminalisation) and therefore make the BBC more vulnerable to the whims of the government.

Looking at 'disappearances' you may or may not realise that key opposition leaders (think Alexei Navalny) don't generally go missing. Some get prosecuted through public channels but they don't go missing. The British media also has a habit of silencing minority groups. Think about the airtime each leader got this debate, and afterwards. Not a word either on the Lib Dem leadership, just the Labour one (through the lens of division in the Labour party). The SNP has had little mention except as the disruptive party.

A temperate climate: hardly the top of one's priorities, and in any case, other places like us exist. Not forgetting that we only have a real advantage from June to August and climate change is diminishing that even.

Access to world-class universities and education: only if you are rich. Free universities exist elsewhere in Europe, even Scotland. Don't forget that it's even more expensive for non-EU citizens.

Access to jobs in a range of fields: almost all countries offer this, especially in the developed world.