Will pre-9.30 AM free concessionary travel become permanent?

[Robertj21a]

Twirly = too early. It’s the merging of the two words. They get on at say 9.27 and say “am I too early?”

But those concessionary passes weren't available back in the 70s and 80s......

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I guess that, to many of the elderly, 9.30am is really a bit late in the day. Many will be up and about any time after 6am, so it's not surprising that they get on the first available bus once their pass is valid. Even so, the 9.30 am start is probably a good balance with the peak rush hour loads (if we ever see them again) out of the way.

This may seem harsh but ENCTS pass holders are getting something for free so find it hard to have too much sympathy that there's a time limit.

The morning peak is because a substantial number of workers still work a 0900-1700 day whilst a substantial number of schools are still of the 0900-1530 so the morning peak is more concentrated. Even in a new world, those relative factors will continue to be in play.

 

[Pat1105]

This may seem harsh but ENCTS pass holders are getting something for free so find it hard to have too much sympathy that there's a time limit.

Exactly! I think some pass holders take the scheme for granted. I know that people, especially the elderly like their routine, but why pay and not use your pass that the taxpayer funds to its full potential when you can travel for free a little later?

 

[Pat1105]

If they are paying to go out earlier and purchasing a ticket like anyone else can, I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
That's there personal choice I think.

There’s nothing wrong with it, but why have a pass in the first place if you want to pay? It’s just a bit of a waste that pensioners have such an asset that they aren’t using.

 

[delt1c]

Twirly = too early. It’s the merging of the two words. They get on at say 9.27 and say “am I too early?”

You got it in one. Used to here that from 09.20 in the morning. And the same beat the end of the evening peak.

 

[richw]

The problem for many bus operators in England is that 9.30am is now the ‘rush hour’ when all of the concessionary pass holders descend on the bus because they ‘have to’ go shopping at that time, or they have booked an early doctors appointment because they ‘can’t’ go any later.

cornwall council removed time restrictions for this reason and have been valid 24/7 for over a year now

 

[Geordie driver]

You got it in one. Used to here that from 09.20 in the morning. And the same beat the end of the evening peak.

9 20! More like 9!

Seriously, I just used to say get on, bus would be almost empty so why make them wait?

If an inspector got on, ( quite possible as they only seemed interested in checking quiet runs) I would just say they had an appointment with the hospital.

 

[delt1c]

9 20! More like 9!

Seriously, I just used to say get on, bus would be almost empty so why make them wait?

If an inspector got on, ( quite possible as they only seemed interested in checking quiet runs) I would just say they had an appointment with the hospital.

Should have been working the 253 in North London was a 3 bell load most of the regardless of concession passes

 

[Pat1105]

9 20! More like 9!

Seriously, I just used to say get on, bus would be almost empty so why make them wait?

If an inspector got on, ( quite possible as they only seemed interested in checking quiet runs) I would just say they had an appointment with the hospital.

I suppose on low frequency routes, this would be acceptable. I’ve seen them try to chance it on every 7 minute frequency services at 20 past 9. And of course, the drivers say no! They know they can’t get on, so why they continue to do it puzzles me.

 

[Geordie driver]

I suppose on low frequency routes, this would be acceptable. I’ve seen them try to chance it on every 7 minute frequency services at 20 past 9. And of course, the drivers say no! They know they can’t get on, so why they continue to do it puzzles me.

Before this lockdown started our village had 1 bus an hour, but the times are very irregular, you can actually see on the time table where the driver takes his breaks, we live rurally. I had a look and the first bus a pensioner could use free in one direction is 10 40! Only 2 buses a day now and no one on them most of the time.

 

[AM9]

There’s nothing wrong with it, but why have a pass in the first place if you want to pay? It’s just a bit of a waste that pensioners have such an asset that they aren’t using.

They are paying because they need to travel earlier than their pass allows. Any other journey that they might make would probably be during the hours that their ENCTS pass is valid. I can't understand why you would think that as "a bit of a waste".

 

[Robertj21a]

There’s nothing wrong with it, but why have a pass in the first place if you want to pay? It’s just a bit of a waste that pensioners have such an asset that they aren’t using.

They pay before 9.30am and use the pass for the return trip.

 

[Pat1105]

They are paying because they need to travel earlier than their pass allows. Any other journey that they might make would probably be during the hours that their ENCTS pass is valid. I can't understand why you would think that as "a bit of a waste".

Yes, some OAPs do need to travel before 9.30 for whatever reason. However, from what I see, most pensioners that travel before 9.30 are doing so for shopping etc. The reason why I see it as a bit of a waste is that they have a pass that allows them to travel for free after a certain time, but they choose not to do this - instead paying to travel earlier because of preference. I often catch the 8.40 bus from where I live, and that carries many OAPs going into Wolverhampton for shopping. As I said earlier, OAPs have most of the day to use their pass for free. If they make other journeys during the day when their pass allows them to for free, fair enough it isn’t a waste at all and is being used for its full purpose. However, most OAPs just make the one return journey a day which can often be before 9.30. In certain areas where there are limited services, people may have no choice but to pay and I understand that, but in areas where there are frequent services, then I don’t see why they can’t wait until after 9.30 to use their pass for free.

 

[Robertj21a]

Those I see before 9.30am appear to be going to hospital appointments.

 

[Typhoon]

The problem with that is many elderly people rely on the bus service to go about their daily lives. They need it for shopping, appointments etc.

At least two surgeries have closed near to where I live, in each case part of the justification was that older passengers could use their pass to catch the bus.

 

[Pat1105]

At least two surgeries have closed near to where I live, in each case part of the justification was that older passengers could use their pass to catch the bus.

I suppose there are both positive and negative outlooks on this. The good thing is that it encourages pass holders to use their pass, some have a pass but never use it. However, there may be some who aren’t fit or healthy enough to use the bus.

 

[Typhoon]

However, do many pass holders avail themselves of this? Why pay to travel at 0830 when they can wait an hour and pay nothing at 0930?

Might depend on the area. If your next bus after the 09:10 is the 11:45, you might think it is worth it. But where there is a regular service there will probably be few takers. I suppose it also might be worth catching the 08:30 if you are guaranteed a seat to yourself (and a Metro), but are likely to end up standing on the 09:30, especially if the town is a distance away?

 

[Typhoon]

However, there may be some who aren’t fit or healthy enough to use the bus.

They have an answer to that - volunteer drivers (but it can soon add up - £5 at least).

 

[Pat1105]

They have an answer to that - volunteer drivers (but it can soon add up - £5 at least).

Community transport is another scheme that I support, it is vital for those that can’t use normal public transport or who have no service at all. However, some companies charge for OAPs (Walsall Community Transport charge £1 per journey on their weekly shopper services) whether some don’t on account of a valid concessionary pass.

 

[delt1c]

But those concessionary passes weren't available back in the 70s and 80s......

They were in London, I know as I worked for LT

 

[Robertj21a]

They were in London, I know as I worked for LT

Ah, you must be talking of a much earlier scheme, not the current one.

 

[delt1c]

Ah, you must be talking of a much earlier scheme, not the current one.

Current comes from past experience, very little in this world is new , usually an adaption of something existing.

 

[CD]

Maybe those OAP's going shopping like to go early for some reason?
Maybe the shops are quieter at 08:00-08:30 in the morning or they like to be back early to do something else later in the day?
I expect most will use the free pass on the return journey as well.
Not sure how its a problem though.

Currently during the Pandemic some supermarkets have early opening for elderly and disabled people, that is why the 0930 rule has been suspended. Eventually when this is all over I expect it will be reintroduced. The problem with it is there is a big difference in bus usage between cities and rural areas in the so called peak times. I live in Yeovil and the main Firstbus town route (51) operates a 30 minute frequency in the "peak" times, but every 20 minutes 1000-1630. This is due to people commuting to work drive rather than catch a slow infrequent bus service.So before 0930 the buses just carry fresh air.

 

[Pat1105]

Maybe those OAP's going shopping like to go early for some reason?
Maybe the shops are quieter at 08:00-08:30 in the morning or they like to be back early to do something else later in the day?
I expect most will use the free pass on the return journey as well.
Not sure how its a problem though.

Yes, that’s the whole point. OAPs are using the bus at an early time because of preference, not because they always need to. If they want to pay to use the bus before 9.30 and return before 9.30 then why should they have a pass in the first place when they don’t always use the ‘free’ part of it? It doesn’t make sense to me why you wouldn’t just go out a little later and have both journeys for free! I know that some operators issue pre 9.30 tickets for pass holders, but why should they? They should pay the full fare like everyone else, as they’ve got the option (apart from certain circumstances e.g hospital appointments) to travel for free later on in the morning. As pointed out earlier, buses are busy at 8 or so in the morning with people going to work who need to travel then. Pass holders don’t necessarily need to travel so early and may be better for them to travel at the time when their pass kicks in where many services are quieter.

 

[Robertj21a]

Current comes from past experience, very little in this world is new , usually an adaption of something existing.

Nobody has said otherwise - but we are talking about the current ENCTS scheme, not what London had in the 1970s.

 

[Pat1105]

While true, its only an extra 2 or 3 people getting on from what I've seen. So I don't think it makes a massive difference.
And they can use there passes on equally as busy PM journeys as well at 16:00/17:00

I suppose it depends on the route and area. From what I’ve seen, I don’t tend to see many OAPs on the buses in the afternoon/evening peak. It tends to be schoolchildren and people returning home from work. Maybe the schoolchildren scare them off?

 

[Stan Drews]

Unless card holders made more journeys if the time restriction was relaxed, then the funding argument is a bit of a red herring. The main issue would be capacity, but as has already been said, it seems to work in 3 out of the 4 UK nations. I’m not aware of any evidence that there was a significant surge in usage when restrictions were lifted in Scotland and Wales.

 

[AM9]

Unless card holders made more journeys if the time restriction was relaxed, then the funding argument is a bit of a red herring. The main issue would be capacity, but as has already been said, it seems to work in 3 out of the 4 UK nations. I’m not aware of any evidence that there was a significant surge in usage when restrictions were lifted in Scotland and Wales.

As with railways, commuters usage pattern causes the buses to be full in the peak hours. The incidence of ENCTS users making the loading of buses significantly worse is far from the norm, (excepting those who use their passes to go to work). There have been comments on posts in RUK over the years that intimate that rail commuters are the saviours of trains services and have a higher entitlement to use them than anybody who isn't a commuter. This thread seems to be leading to the same conclusions as far as buses are concerned. As Stan Drews says, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that the seats will fill up with wrinklies if NCTS passes are usable earlier in the morning. If the buses are so awfully crowded in the peak, why would older retired passengers want to travel in such poor conditions?

 

[Busaholic]

As with railways, commuters usage pattern causes the buses to be full in the peak hours. The incidence of ENCTS users making the loading of buses significantly worse is far from the norm, (excepting those who use their passes to go to work). There have been comments on posts in RUK over the years that intimate that rail commuters are the saviours of trains services and have a higher entitlement to use them than anybody who isn't a commuter. This thread seems to be leading to the same conclusions as far as buses are concerned. As Stan Drews says, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that the seats will fill up with wrinklies if NCTS passes are usable earlier in the morning. If the buses are so awfully crowded in the peak, why would older retired passengers want to travel in such poor conditions?

Please don't bring reason into this discussion, as you may find it offends. If I have an appointment at my nearest general hospital before 11.15a.m., which is quite common, I will have to catch a direct bus which leaves before 9.30 a.m., perhaps considerably earlier. I therefore travel by car when I can, but it's not always possible or desirable. I don't live out in the sticks, but in the centre of a medium-sized town.

 

[Pat1105]

As with railways, commuters usage pattern causes the buses to be full in the peak hours. The incidence of ENCTS users making the loading of buses significantly worse is far from the norm, (excepting those who use their passes to go to work). There have been comments on posts in RUK over the years that intimate that rail commuters are the saviours of trains services and have a higher entitlement to use them than anybody who isn't a commuter. This thread seems to be leading to the same conclusions as far as buses are concerned. As Stan Drews says, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that the seats will fill up with wrinklies if NCTS passes are usable earlier in the morning. If the buses are so awfully crowded in the peak, why would older retired passengers want to travel in such poor conditions?

Please don't bring reason into this discussion, as you may find it offends. If I have an appointment at my nearest general hospital before 11.15a.m., which is quite common, I will have to catch a direct bus which leaves before 9.30 a.m., perhaps considerably earlier. I therefore travel by car when I can, but it's not always possible or desirable. I don't live out in the sticks, but in the centre of a medium-sized town.

As i’m sure you’ll understand, I’m not suggesting that OAPs aren’t entitled to use peak time services. I just don’t understand why those who are lucky enough to have the gift of free travel don’t use it to its full potential, instead wishing to travel earlier and pay for the privilege when they can wait until their pass entitles them to travel free of charge. I completely understand that there are certain circumstances where people have to travel at an earlier time than 9.30, such as those that @Busaholic mentions above. I’m only speaking about what I’ve seen in my area where there are some OAPs that get on pre 9.30 for shopping (they’re pushing shopping trollies so I presume that’s what they’re doing). Maybe it’s different in other areas? The ENCTS scheme is a great scheme that not only encourages the elderly to get out and about, but also combats a variety of social issues as well, such as tackling loneliness which is becoming an ever increasing issue. I just don’t want to see it pulled altogether because of cuts to funding, so the more people who use it fully and for what it was designed for, to allow the elderly to travel for free, the better.