Do protests threaten our efforts at reducing the virus

[MCSHF007]

If a certain body of people must be allowed to break the law, then surely everybody must be allowed to break the law.
And is it just the law on gatherings everyone must be allowed to break, or other laws as well ?

Well said.

 

[ashkeba]

Please remember this is a protest against how the government is handling coronavirus too.

It's a protest against the lack of interest of the non-black prime minister in the higher mortality of BAME people

It's a protest against the non-black health minister failing to get to the bottom of tales of white nurses being given PPE in preference to BAME nurses.

And so much more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a protest against the lack of interest of the non-black prime minister in the higher mortality of BAME people

???

This is being discussed and researched.

It's a protest against the non-black health minister failing to get to the bottom of tales of white nurses being given PPE in preference to BAME nurses.

I hadn't heard this one.

 

[Butts]

???

This is being discussed and researched.



I hadn't heard this one.

Probably because close investigation will find it's horse dung !!

 

[Smethwickian]

Please remember this is a protest against how the government is handling coronavirus too.

It's a protest against the lack of interest of the non-black prime minister in the higher mortality of BAME people

It's a protest against the non-black health minister failing to get to the bottom of tales of white nurses being given PPE in preference to BAME nurses.

And so much more.

Eh? So the logical thing to do is to put themselves at greater risk by defying coronavirus restrictions and social distancing? And put NHS staff, including the BAME staff apparently at greater risk, under even more pressure?

As for equality, that surely also means everyone obeying the same laws, including coronavirus regulations - not being given some dispensation due to ethnicity to selectively ignore laws they just don't feel like obeying.

'Interest' in the differing effects of the virus is there among scientists worldwide who are frantically studying what is still a relatively novel virus - there are no magic wands and no overnight solutions, hence a vaccine is still some way off and why we still have no definitive answer as to whether people have immunity, or for how long, after catching it. To suggest no-one is looking into all aspects of this virus and its effects on all sorts of people worldwide is rather insulting to the scientists, researchers and academics across the globe who are working hard to get the answers.

As for who is getting PPE when, perhaps if you have any actual facts, evidence, dates or locations rather than - quote - "tales" - unquote - you should draw them to the attention of the relevant authority. As I understand it, the supply of PPE across the NHS and care sector has been far from ideal, regardless of individual issues.

 

[ashkeba]

Eh? So the logical thing to do is to put themselves at greater

The percentage of BAME respondents who had been asked to reuse single-use PPE was 11 per cent higher than their white British colleagues.


The RCN found that more than half of its BAME members surveyed had been asked to reuse PPE intended for one use only.


Dame Donna Kinnair, Chief Executive and General Secretary of the RCN, said: "It is simply unacceptable that we are in a situation where BAME nursing staff are less protected than other nursing staff."


by defying coronavirus restrictions and social distancing? And put NHS staff, including the BAME staff apparently at greater risk, under even more pressure?

Most of the protests were distanced. Even in cities where idiot authorities cynically forced protests into areas too small to maintain distance, there were often other well-spaced protests too.

As for equality, that surely also means everyone obeying the same laws, including coronavirus regulations - not being given some dispensation due to ethnicity to selectively ignore laws they just don't feel like obeying.

Indeed. The non-black Cummings and beach-goers can ignore them, so so can we! (I didn't go to a big protest because I didn't want to ride trains for it.)

To suggest no-one is looking into all aspects of this virus and its effects on all sorts of people worldwide is rather insulting to the scientists, researchers and academics across the globe who are working hard to get the answers.

I did not do that. I said Mr "watermelon smiles" wasn't taking it seriously. Let us see today how much he exploits a few bits of disorder to avoid the main issue of the protests.

As for who is getting PPE when, perhaps if you have any actual facts, evidence, dates or locations rather than - quote - "tales" - unquote - you should draw them to the attention of the relevant authority. As I understand it, the supply of PPE across the NHS and care sector has been far from ideal, regardless of individual issues.

I am surprised but not very surprised that all the news stories about this were not remembered. Example:

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-05-28...rotected-with-issues-around-ppe-survey-finds/

The percentage of BAME respondents who had been asked to reuse single-use PPE was 11 per cent higher than their white British colleagues.

The RCN found that more than half of its BAME members surveyed had been asked to reuse PPE intended for one use only.

Dame Donna Kinnair, Chief Executive and General Secretary of the RCN, said: "It is simply unacceptable that we are in a situation where BAME nursing staff are less protected than other nursing staff."

 

[yorkie]

... a few bits of disorder ...

Will you join me in condemning the disorder? If you are involved in these protests, will you pledge to deter those participating in the protests from carrying out disorder?

Do you agree that the last thing we want right now is some sort of race war, or any other acts that give a platform to the far-right?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed. The non-black Cummings and beach-goers can ignore them, so so can we! (I didn't go to a big protest because I didn't want to ride trains for it.)

Could you please explain why you keep referring to the ethnicities of senior Government figures? What matters is surely what they are doing and their competency or otherwise to do their jobs, not their ethnicities.

Interestingly

I am surprised but not very surprised that all the news stories about this were not remembered. Example:

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-05-28...rotected-with-issues-around-ppe-survey-finds/

Not remembered? My social media boxes have been full of stuff about this issue. It's been repeatedly brought up in connection with the current demonstrations.

The question is... is it an example of racism, and the article gives no indication of that because it doesn't investigate the reasons for the disparity. If it was a case of, someone deliberately supplying PPE preferentiallly to white nurses then that would be awful (and very strongly racist). That would also seem somewhat unlikely simply because, if that was what was happening, you'd expect certain media outlets that are usually keen to report racism issues - such as the Guardian - to be onto it like a shot, and it's noticeable that nothing along those lines has emerged.

If on the other hand it's something to do with supplies being more constrained in areas where more BAME nurses happen to work (perhaps because those areas are inner cities and therefore poorer, or because they have been more badly impacted by Covid, therefore putting a greater strain on supplies), then it's very concerning but nothing to do with racism. In general, I'd say it's wrong to make assumptions before have that data - but the latter explanation so far seems more plausible.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

How incredibly lucky it was that some protesters in Bristol yesterday just happened to have some strong ropes with them, capable of pulling down a statue. Or could it be that people with different agendas are using the cover of an unrelated mass-gatherings to attack the police, commit arson etc, all whilst covering their faces under the pretext of protecting others?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This is being discussed and researched.

Indeed. Interesting to compare with the fact that, ever since Covid came to light, men have been dying from it at significantly greater rates than women. It's very noticeable that this has attracted almost no attention outside the World of those scientists and researchers who are trying to figure out what the risk factors are and how to deal with the disease. No-one is complaining about the Government's lack of action on this, or making allegations of gender-bias on the strength of it.

I'm not particularly complaining here. Even though I am male myself, I understand that there is lots we don't yet know, and the priority is really to save lives - any lives. But there does seem to be some double standard amongst those who are seeking to turn the higher risk to BAME people into a political issue of race while at the same time completely ignoring the higher risk to men.

 

[BJames]

Most of the protests were distanced. Even in cities where idiot authorities cynically forced protests into areas too small to maintain distance, there were often other well-spaced protests too.

Cities like London? I saw minimal evidence of social distancing from livestreams and videos on twitter and other socials. Some cities had some well-spaced protests but I wouldn't say that most protests were distanced.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Most of the protests were distanced. Even in cities where idiot authorities cynically forced protests into areas too small to maintain distance, there were often other well-spaced protests too.

This looks to me like an unsubstantiated allegation. Do you have any evidence that authorities anywhere were deliberately doing this?

Do consider that, it's virtually impossible to tell upfront how many protesters are going to arrive in any given location, and there is a substantial cost/inconvenience to other people in allocating streets to protesters and thereby forcing buses to divert, preventing other people from going about their business, etc. And in the end, if you arrive at a location and discover it's too crowded to maintain social distancing, then it's really your responsibility to turn back and be safe - it's hardly the local authority's responsibility to close off some more streets at 10 minute's notice so you can demonstrate.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I cannot see any logic whatsoever by people in Britain taking part in these riots (its certainly not a peaceful protest, as a peaceful protest doesn't have idiots lobbing pushbikes at police horses or toppling and then vandalising a statue). This George Floyd is no martyr as these protesters are making out - you wouldn't point a loaded weapon towards a pregnant woman and demand cash and drugs. If he didn't do that in the first place then he'd still be alive along with the copper.

If the R number rises then I personally think that all cities where these riots have taken place should be locked down again and more stricter many thanks to these pillocks who have completely ruined it for the law abiding citizens, whilst everywhere else can go back to normal.

 

[ashkeba]

Will you join me in condemning the disorder?

Yes. Will you join me in condemning racism?

If you are involved in these protests, will you pledge to deter those participating in the protests from carrying out disorder?

I am not directly involved in these protests yet, as mentioned. Awful discussions like this are a big motivation to become more involved. Will you pledge to deter those participating in the discussion from distracting from racism?

Do you agree that the last thing we want right now is some sort of race war, or any other acts that give a platform to the far-right?

I agree but there are so many acts going on which give a platform to the far right which is part of why there are these protests now.

 

[westv]

This George Floyd is no martyr as these protesters are making out - you wouldn't point a loaded weapon towards a pregnant woman and demand cash and drugs. If he didn't do that in the first place then he'd still be alive along with the copper.

Where does it say he did that?

 

[ashkeba]

Could you please explain why you keep referring to the ethnicities of senior Government figures? What matters is surely what they are doing and their competency or otherwise to do their jobs, not their ethnicities.

I was just copying what seems to be normal in this country except when people are white. Could you please explain why news media keep calling people "black doctor" or similar?

Example https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52922046

Public Health England announced the inquiry, which investigated the impact of the virus on different ethnic groups, would be led by black doctor Prof Kevin Fenton.

The question is... is it an example of racism, and the article gives no indication of that because it doesn't investigate the reasons for the disparity. If it was a case of, someone deliberately supplying PPE preferentiallly to white nurses then that would be awful (and very strongly racist). That would also seem somewhat unlikely simply because, if that was what was happening, you'd expect certain media outlets that are usually keen to report racism issues - such as the Guardian - to be onto it like a shot, and it's noticeable that nothing along those lines has emerged.

It did appear in The Guardian but in a moderate form. The Human Rights Commission is investigating right now and I think no-one except itv who blew the whistle first want to be accused of prejudicing the investigation.

I will not be surprised if any strongly racist suppliers have made sure that there is a perfect believable alternative legal explanation. There ususally is. And at what point does a disproportionalite alone become evidence that some sort of racism is probably inside the system? Is it relevant that it is not deliberate by participants but is set in the rules of the system?

 

[ashkeba]

Cities like London? I saw minimal evidence of social distancing from livestreams and videos on twitter and other socials. Some cities had some well-spaced protests but I wouldn't say that most protests were distanced.

Cities like Cambridge or Peterborough or Wolverhampton. Of course I cannot comment on what twitter bots are showing you, because they are probably showing me other things, but that is now even more of a carnival mirror than the online news media.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Where does it say he did that?

Try this. It doesn't say anything about the woman being pregnant, but the other details match. I know it's the Mail, but on this occasion it does seem to be accurate - shows official documents confirming the story.

The final straw for Floyd came after serving five years in prison in 2009 for aggravated assault stemming from a robbery in 2007 where he entered a woman’s home, pressed a gun into her stomach and searched the home for drugs and money, according to court records.

Floyd pleaded guilty to the robbery where another suspect posed as a worker for the local water department, wearing a blue uniform in an attempt to gain access to the woman’s home, according to the charging document.

But when the woman opened the door, she realized he was not with the water department and attempted to close the door, leading to a struggle.

At that time, a Ford Explorer pulled up to the home and five other males exited the car and went up to the front door.

The report states the largest of the group, who the victim later identified as Floyd, ‘forced his way inside the residence, placed a pistol against the complainant’s abdomen, and forced her into the living room area of the residence.

‘This large suspect then proceeded to search the residence while another armed suspect guarded the complainant, who was struck in the head and sides by this second armed suspect with his pistol while she screamed for help.’

Not finding any drugs or money at the house, the men took jewelry and the woman’s cell phone and fled in their car. A neighbor who witnessed the robbery took down the car’s license plate number.

Later, police tracked down the car and found Floyd behind the wheel. He was later identified by the woman as the large suspect who placed a gun against her stomach and forced her into her living room, the document states.

 

[ashkeba]

This looks to me like an unsubstantiated allegation. Do you have any evidence that authorities anywhere were deliberately doing this?

For example, it looked on TV news that there was a police line at the back of the Norwich BBC protest, confining the protest to Millenium Square and not allowing it to spread into the adjacent St Peters Square - and there are no shops on St Peters Square, no bus routes and its only occupants are City Hall (closed on a Sunday) and a war memorial. The Norwich Eaton protest by the former American Football fields was not confined and appeared to be well-spaced. I suspect local politicians had told protestors not to protest in the city centre outside the BBC and government buildings and to go out to Eaton where they can be ignored more easily so it was policed more harshly.

Do consider that, it's virtually impossible to tell upfront how many protesters are going to arrive in any given location, and there is a substantial cost/inconvenience to other people in allocating streets to protesters and thereby forcing buses to divert, preventing other people from going about their business, etc. And in the end, if you arrive at a location and discover it's too crowded to maintain social distancing, then it's really your responsibility to turn back and be safe - it's hardly the local authority's responsibility to close off some more streets at 10 minute's notice so you can demonstrate.

How can people turn back when they are blocked in? Are you really expecting them to walk up to the police line and ask to pass and be allowed to, after the trigger for these protests and the scenes already seen from London of riot police running towards the crowd?

 

[Tetchytyke]

This George Floyd is no martyr as these protesters are making out - you wouldn't point a loaded weapon towards a pregnant woman and demand cash and drugs. If he didn't do that in the first place then he'd still be alive along with the copper.

I'm sure he was a criminal, but what that has to do with anything is quite beyond me. Unless you're actually trying to advocate in favour of police carrying out extra-judicial executions of black robbers?

 

[jumble]

Will you join me in condemning the disorder? If you are involved in these protests, will you pledge to deter those participating in the protests from carrying out disorder?

Do you agree that the last thing we want right now is some sort of race war, or any other acts that give a platform to the far-right?

I really hope that the police track down those who commit violence against them and the courts make a serious example of these thugs.
( Like the looters last time around being traced later getting their doors smashed down and then being locked up for 6 months which stopped the looting in it's tracks)

 

[greyman42]

Try this. It doesn't say anything about the woman being pregnant, but the other details match. I know it's the Mail, but on this occasion it does seem to be accurate - shows official documents confirming the story.

That's a bit of an eye-opener.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's very noticeable that this has attracted almost no attention

Apart from all the attention it has attracted, you mean? Men have been affected more because men are more likely to have the riskiest underlying health conditions- heart trouble and diabetes. BAME men are more likely to have these conditions than white men, FWIW.

If the R number rises then I personally think that all cities where these riots have taken place should be locked down again and more stricter

"I disagree with anti-racist protesters and think they should be punished for daring to protest. I don't give a toss about white people going to the beach though".

This looks to me like an unsubstantiated allegation. Do you have any evidence that authorities anywhere were deliberately doing this?

Kettling is the default police tactic when dealing with protesters. As for "just go home", try and ask a baton-wielding riot officer if you could just nip past plskthnx and let me know how you get on.

If on the other hand it's something to do with supplies being more constrained in areas where more BAME nurses happen to work (perhaps because those areas are inner cities and therefore poorer, or because they have been more badly impacted by Covid, therefore putting a greater strain on supplies), then it's very concerning but nothing to do with racism.

BAME medical staff in areas with high BAME populations can't get PPE, but it's nothing to do with race. Hmm.

Of course racism isn't always overt. You don't openly say "no blacks no Irish" anymore.

In fairness, it's also very rarely even deliberate. Systemic racism is difficult to unravel because so much of it is hidden away behind layers and layers of reasoning and rationales that superficially appear reasonable. Why are BAME areas usually poor? Why are poor areas usually under-resourced? Why are BAME staff usually placed in poor and under-resourced areas?

 

[sheff1]

Do consider that, it's virtually impossible to tell upfront how many protesters are going to arrive in any given location, and there is a substantial cost/inconvenience to other people in allocating streets to protesters

if these law breakers were not intent on breaking the law there would be no need to do anything. A gathering of more than 6 people (in England) is unlawful.

Mind you, Boris Johnson has now said a certain body of people have a "right" to break the law. In which case, why did he allow his minister to sign off legislation containing no such exemption ?

 

[yorkie]

Yes. Will you join me in condemning racism?

Thank you Yes, absolutely; this is something I am very passionate about (you may have seen my post at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-the-wider-consequences.205106/#post-4612054 )

I am not directly involved in these protests yet, as mentioned. Awful discussions like this are a big motivation to become more involved. Will you pledge to deter those participating in the discussion from distracting from racism?

Unfortunately if anyone engages in acts of violence, vandalism, intimidation or incitement towards others, it will distract from their message. Those who organise protests do have a responsibility, in my opinion, to do so responsibly and to encourage participants to act responsibly.

I agree but there are so many acts going on which give a platform to the far right which is part of why there are these protests now.

I see no larger platform than the acts of violence, vandalism and intimidation by a minority of individuals which occurred last weekend.

The hatred of the so-called 'far-left' and 'far-right' are very unwelcome as far as I'm concerned. We do not want extremists on any 'side' trying to incite a race war in this country. It would do no-one any good.

https://twitter.com/rakibehsan/status/1269964928649134081

I cannot express to you how much of a gift the protests are for far-right organisations. Far-left protestors defacing the statue of Sir Winston Churchill, attempting to burn the Union Jack on the Cenotaph, and willing British police officers to go on their knees. Very worrying.

https://twitter.com/rakibehsan/status/1269967337253490690

The protests have been criticised by members of the moderate-left, mainstream conservatives, and non-ideological people. Question here is how the protests may be exploited by organisations which are not interested in social cohesion.

There is also the fact that organising protests during a pandemic is causing some people to become very upset; people having been making comparisons such as being unable to attend funerals while people were involved in mass protests without social distancing.

As I said before, there was no alternative but to allow the protests to take place, but those organising them need to take more responsibility, in my opinion.

 

[MikeWM]

This appears to be an unfortunate combination of a very good cause that people rightly feel passionate about, with the usual troublemakers/agent provocateurs who try to hijack any such protest. Then mix in deep frustration with the confusion of the past few months, and a population that has had most 'release' mechanisms and group activities taken away (work, pubs, sports, nightclubs, casual hookups, religious activities) and the only surprise about things getting somewhat overheated is that anyone is surprised by it.

I fear we'll see a lot more and a lot worse in the coming months as the furlough scheme ends and we end up with millions unemployed. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[Scrotnig]

If the R number rises then I personally think that all cities where these riots have taken place should be locked down again and more stricter

Yep that's the way to do it...use 'lockdown' as a punishment. And a collective punishment at that. let's punish innocent people who had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

What is it with so many people desperate to impose every stricter lockdown measures on as many people as possible for as long as possible? What is this supposed to achieve?

If anyone is that terrified of the virus, by all means lock yourself up forever, just don't expect the government to keep paying you to do so.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is also the fact that organising protests during a pandemic is causing some people to become very upset; people having been making comparisons such as being unable to attend funerals while people were involved in mass protests without social distancing.

That's an important point. And, getting to the topic of this thread , I can see the protests having a side effect of making more people think, 'If the protesters can do that, why I should I obey the lockdown?' In other words, they will add to the bad effect of Dominc Cummings' actions (which I'm going to hazard a guess would have been roundly condemned by many of those on the left who are now trying to defend the protests).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I was just copying what seems to be normal in this country except when people are white. Could you please explain why news media keep calling people "black doctor" or similar?

Example https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52922046

That's actually an interesting point. I'm going to hazard a guess that maybe the BBC article referred to the person's ethnicity because it was felt relevant in the specific context of a person being appointed to investigate the impact on the virus on BAME groups. Whether you should comment on someone's ethnicity is an area that I think calls for some judgement - because on the whole, for almost all jobs, your ethnicity is and should be irrelevant. I took objection to your use of the term non-black because the context seemed to suggest that you were trying to subtly imply there was something wrong with a Prime Minister not being black.

I would personally see it as fine to mention a person's ethnicity either when there is a clear relevance to whatever you're talking about (which is pretty rare if you're talking about professional stuff), or if the information is being added purely for interest in a context where it is completely value-neutral (probably quite common). I would see it as not OK to mention it if you are doing so in order to denigrate a person or imply there is something wrong with them because of their ethnicity.

 

[philosopher]

That's an important point. And, getting to the topic of this thread , I can see the protests having a side effect of making more people think, 'If the protesters can do that, why I should I obey the lockdown?' In other words, they will add to the bad effect of Dominc Cummings' actions (which I'm going to hazard a guess would have been roundly condemned by many of those on the left who are now trying to defend the protests).

Last weekend will have been the third weekend in a row where flouting of the lockdown has been the one of the main news stories. Two weekends ago it was the Dominic Cumming Scandal, one weekend ago it was the crowded beaches and last weekend it was the protests. Even the most law abiding people will start to question whether they are mugs for obeying the lockdown in such circumstances.