Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[Railperf]

On the xx;30 stopping pattern, the 745's have now beaten all the Railway Performance Society Class 90 station to station records between London and Norwich. Just a few of the older Class 86 records north of Ipswich to be beaten. Ipswich to Stowmarket is almost impossible due to the 50 TSR, so 9min10sec the fastest 745 time so far with Class 86 achieved 8min53sec to beat. Stowmarket to Diss is now down to 10min10sec, with 9min50 to beat. I reckon a faster station stop than i have experienced will do it.

And Diss to Norwich - best so far on a 745 is 15min21sec some way behind the best Class 86 time of 14min48. But the log claims the 86 reached speeds of up to 112mph (in 1994) and I'm guessing the approach to Norwich and final stop was much faster than would be allowed now. So that may just be unbeatable!

 

[dk1]

And Diss to Norwich - best so far on a 745 is 15min21sec some way behind the best Class 86 time of 14min48. But the log claims the 86 reached speeds of up to 112mph (in 1994) and I'm guessing the approach to Norwich and final stop was much faster than would be allowed now. So that may just be unbeatable!

As before TPWS & OTMR 86/DBSOs are an unfair comparison really due to the reasons you state. Messroom talk often goes back to 120mph being easily achieved in Flordon dip & I remember tables in the mk2 fleet shaking. Speeding was originally never thoroughly realised in the DBSOs in the very early days of transfer to the GEML due to speedos only reading as far as 100mph.

 

[Railperf]

As before TPWS & OTMR 86/DBSOs are an unfair comparison really due to the reasons you state. Messroom talk often goes back to 120mph being easily achieved in Flordon dip & I remember tables in the mk2 fleet shaking. Speeding was originally never thoroughly realised in the DBSOs in the very early days of transfer to the GEML due to speedos only reading as far as 100mph.

Oh really?? Did the DBSO speedo not move past 100mph - off the clock?
Yes, you are absolutely right about TPWS / OTMR etc - and i accept that. As I say the 86's times are recorded for posterity. It's a shame the 745's and track are limited to 100mph north of Ipswich. They would reach 110 or 125mph in no time and can maintain that for most of the distance - even on a stopping service. But pointless on current sectional timings. It's a shame that even the temporary timetable north of Colchester has not been tweaked to take into account the 745's performance. 5 mins stopping time at Chelmsford, Colchester and Ipswich is now ridiculous! And so few people getting on/off at Diss that the even 30 seconds is enough!

 

[dk1]

Oh really?? Did the DBSO speedo not move past 100mph - off the clock?
Yes, you are absolutely right about TPWS / OTMR etc - and i accept that. As I say the 86's times are recorded for posterity. It's a shame the 745's and track are limited to 100mph north of Ipswich. They would reach 110 or 125mph in no time and can maintain that for most of the distance - even on a stopping service. But pointless on current sectional timings. It's a shame that even the temporary timetable north of Colchester has not been tweaked to take into account the 745's performance. 5 mins stopping time at Chelmsford, Colchester and Ipswich is now ridiculous! And so few people getting on/off at Diss that the even 30 seconds is enough!

The speedos where modified in time to 125mph if my memory serves me correctly. Drivers loved them as Diss to Norwich was your last bit. I was train announcer at the time they where introduced & arriving 8-10 early was commonplace.

 

[Railperf]

The speedos where modified in time to 125mph if my memory serves me correctly. Drivers loved them as Diss to Norwich was your last bit. I was train announcer at the time they where introduced & arriving 8-10 early was commonplace.

Mine arrived almost 6 early at Norwich after a 1 min early departure from Diss. Booked running time of 20 mins is overkill - especially as the outbound run is 16.5min.

 

[dk1]

Mine arrived almost 6 early at Norwich after a 1 min early departure from Diss. Booked running time of 20 mins is overkill - especially as the outbound run is 16.5min.

I can understand it down road for recovery time on the journey end but up could come down by a minute.

 

[Railperf]

I can understand it down road for recovery time on the journey end but up could come down by a minute.

Better if the time were added incrementally along the route rather than a large lump at the end. Fortunately you guys are only too happy to race back, so it is almost irrelevant unless a regional or freight is late running through the swing bridge or through the junctions.

Based on my observations Norwich to Diss booked in 16.5 could go down to 15.5 to 16 min. Diss to Stowmarket booked 11 mins - could be 10 mins unless some pathing time is being allowed for at Haughley Jn. Stowmarket to Ipswich booked 11.5 mins - achievable in 9 - but could add in a minute to allow for late running regionals blocking paths through the layout.
Ipswich to Manningtree booked 9 mins - achievable in 7.5 min. Manningtree to Colchester booked 8.5 mins - easily achievable in 6.5 mins with 2 minute dwell time. Colchester to Chelmsford currently allowed 17 mins - achievable in 15 min.
Hopefully dwell times can be reduced as a result of not having slam door stock.

Chelmsford to Stratford is booked 23 mins - achievable in 20-21 mins. The issue here seems to be the headways and dwell time at Stratford by Southend services. When trains are running just 3 min apart and one of those stops for a minute - the train behind will start to see yellow signals and will slam on the anchors. It is a shame that P9 and P10 can't be used simultaneously to allow the second service to pull up as the first is leaving. If the layout at Stratford were adjusted, platform 10 and 10a could be similarly used for the down services that follow each other closely. In the perfect world you would have an extra platform so two up, two down. Fortunately the layout at Shenfield means the Southends have their own platforms now.

 

[Bald Rick]

. The issue here seems to be the headways and dwell time at Stratford by Southend services. When trains are running just 3 min apart and one of those stops for a minute - the train behind will start to see yellow signals and will slam on the anchors. It is a shame that P9 and P10 can't be used simultaneously to allow the second service to pull up as the first is leaving. If the layout at Stratford were adjusted, platform 10 and 10a could be similarly used for the down services that follow each other closely. In the perfect world you would have an extra platform so two up, two down. Fortunately the layout at Shenfield means the Southends have their own platforms now.

Unless something has changed recently, the layout at Stratford *does* permit an up train to run into 9 or 10 with another service departing the other. Similarly with 10/10a in the down. Without this the morning and evening peak would not work.

 

[Dave1987]

Unless something has changed recently, the layout at Stratford *does* permit an up train to run into 9 or 10 with another service departing the other. Similarly with 10/10a in the down. Without this the morning and evening peak would not work.

It does, sort of. But the signalling headways and overlaps mean it isn't super silky smooth operation. Until the 720's are in and the GE services are speeded up the 745's are always going to be hamstrung and not be able to make use of their acceleration. The 321's are the real issue on the GE at the moment.

 

[dk1]

Better if the time were added incrementally along the route rather than a large lump at the end. Fortunately you guys are only too happy to race back, so it is almost irrelevant unless a regional or freight is late running through the swing bridge or through the junctions.

See now im totally against that personally. A few years ago timings where changed so trains where on time more at intermediate stations. When things go well that means we dwell longer at these stations and so therefore cant get to the final station many minutes early. Best of all was when the last train of the day was set down only.

 

[306024]

It's a shame that even the temporary timetable north of Colchester has not been tweaked to take into account the 745's performance. 5 mins stopping time at Chelmsford, Colchester and Ipswich is now ridiculous! And so few people getting on/off at Diss that the even 30 seconds is enough!

Unfortunately the planners have far more important things to consider just now in simply in getting a revised timetable out, without playing with it which would require further validation. You’ll just have to curb your thirst for speed for a while yet

Unless something has changed recently, the layout at Stratford *does* permit an up train to run into 9 or 10 with another service departing the other. Similarly with 10/10a in the down. Without this the morning and evening peak would not work.

Something has changed relatively recently. It was always possible to run up road to pfm 9 with a train departing up road from pfm 10, but the train up 9 of course runs in on a red if the previous train from pfm 10 crosses straight back to the up main. On the down road a signalling overlap wasn‘t changed when the line through 10a was extended to Maryland. This meant a train on the down road for platform 10 would be bought to a stand London side if Stratford if a train was departing down from pfm 10a. After a lot of pressure it has finally been altered so a train can arrive pfm 10 while one is departing pfm 10a, but again running in on a red. Unfortunately a 12 car from 10a is restricted to 30mph until the rear has cleared the points at the London end of Maryland.

See now im totally against that personally. A few years ago timings where changed so trains where on time more at intermediate stations. When things go well that means we dwell longer at these stations and so therefore cant get to the final station many minutes early. Best of all was when the last train of the day was set down only.

That is how planning will be in future (and already is in the best country for reliability in my experience - Switzerland). Punctuality will be measured throughout the journey, not just at destination. Meanwhile the fastest I’ve travelled on the GEML was 108mph approaching Swainsthorpe on the down. What was remarkable was it was back in the 80s with a Stratford 47. Had to throw every anchor on for Trowse Upper.

 

[dk1]

That is how planning will be in future (and already is in the best country for reliability in my experience - Switzerland). Punctuality will be measured throughout the journey, not just at destination. Meanwhile the fastest I’ve travelled on the GEML was 108mph approaching Swainsthorpe on the down. What was remarkable was it was back in the 80s with a Stratford 47. Had to throw every anchor on for Trowse Upper.

Great days. All too anal for my liking in this day & age but suppose it's safer so can't argue.

 

[DannyMich2018]

It's strange that the relatively straight long section north of Haughley Junction to Norwich in this day and age is still only 100 max mph, unlike East Coast West Coadt, GW and Midland Mainline lines which have many 100 mph plus limits.

 

[dk1]

It's strange that the relatively straight long section north of Haughley Junction to Norwich in this day and age is still only 100 max mph, unlike East Coast West Coadt, GW and Midland Mainline lines which have many 100 mph plus limits.

There are a few farm crossings on that section that may have something to do with things.

 

[306024]

Mine arrived almost 6 early at Norwich after a 1 min early departure from Diss. Booked running time of 20 mins is overkill - especially as the outbound run is 16.5min.

Net running time from Diss to Norwich is 17 minutes. Plus a compulsory [2] minutes recovery time in all schedules.

There is a total of 6 minutes recovery time between Liverpool St and Norwich in all schedules. Network Rail would be reluctant to reduce that, even though it is relatively high compared to other routes for a 115 mile journey, without a wholesale recalculation of the performance metrics. Big money could swing on any changes.

 

[Bald Rick]

On the down road a signalling overlap wasn‘t changed when the line through 10a was extended to Maryland.

I’m astonished at that.

It's strange that the relatively straight long section north of Haughley Junction to Norwich in this day and age is still only 100 max mph, unlike East Coast West Coadt, GW and Midland Mainline lines which have many 100 mph plus limits.

As well as dozens of level crossings, and the OLE, what’s underneath the track is a major problem. The track engineer for the patch once told me that with a lot of work he could probably get it to 125mph, but at the first long spell of dry weather, or wet weather, it would almost certainly be back to 100mph.

Besides the gains would be relatively small - a minute and a half Diss to Norwich, less than a minute Haughley to Diss, with many, many fewer passengers to benefit from the higher speeds on the lines you mention.

 

[306024]

I’m astonished at that.

Join the club. It was always a restricted overlap due to the proximity of the line through 10a joining the down main closer to Stratford before it got extended. Lots of people tried to get the overlap changed, then one night travelling home I was sadly watching things on the open train times signalling map when we ran straight into pfm 10 when a Southend train was leaving 10a. Hey presto it was fixed.

Back on 745s obviously some speed up is possible, but perhaps expectations need to be managed until the ultimate class 720 / 745 GEML re-write.

 

[Bald Rick]

Join the club. It was always a restricted overlap due to the proximity of the line through 10a joining the down main closer to Stratford before it got extended. Lots of people tried to get the overlap changed, then one night travelling home I was sadly watching things on the open train times signalling map when we ran straight into pfm 10 when a Southend train was leaving 10a. Hey presto it was fixed.

Back on 745s obviously some speed up is possible, but perhaps expectations need to be managed until the ultimate class 720 / 745 GEML re-write.

I’ve checked my signalling drawings for the project, and knock me down with a feather, the Reduced Overlap (ROL) for L273 was shown as unchanged (63m), approach released to single yellow when the forward route was set. There was also a new overlap for L273 at 199m, clearly intended to replace it, but the ROL must have just been missed through all of the development. Surprising, given the names on the signed version of the scheme plan. The functional spec for the job doesn’t mention it either.

It would have been one of the things on the list for interlocking changes next time one was due; the data change would have been relatively small on its own and therefore not enough to open up the data for.

 

[306024]

Bang on, but then I wouldn't expect anything less It was a cause of frustration as the timetable didn’t take it into account. But all’s well that ends well now.

 

[Railperf]

Join the club. It was always a restricted overlap due to the proximity of the line through 10a joining the down main closer to Stratford before it got extended. Lots of people tried to get the overlap changed, then one night travelling home I was sadly watching things on the open train times signalling map when we ran straight into pfm 10 when a Southend train was leaving 10a. Hey presto it was fixed.

Back on 745s obviously some speed up is possible, but perhaps expectations need to be managed until the ultimate class 720 / 745 GEML re-write.

Zero expectations for a while here. Just enjoying the rather quick runs that are possible right now. I'm still waiting for the first 720's to appear in service - never mind the last - so I'm not expecting any timetable improvements for 18-24 months now?
In the meantime, its fab for passengers when their trains turn up upto five mins early. It's very amusing listening to drivers and guards almost apologetically informing passengers that the train is not moving because the train is too early.

 

[Railperf]

Bang on, but then I wouldn't expect anything less It was a cause of frustration as the timetable didn’t take it into account. But all’s well that ends well now.

Has the timetable been altered to take into account the removal of Motts Lane LC - which used to cause all the northbound Witham stoppers to enter the platform on a red?

 

[Railperf]

Net running time from Diss to Norwich is 17 minutes. Plus a compulsory [2] minutes recovery time in all schedules.

The net sectional running time allowed is slow even by Class 90 standards. But sometimes - checking the live signalling maps - the route setting seems to be a bit tardy - and signals slow to clear - even when nothing appears to be in the way or causing a conflict. The same seems to apply along the whole route. It seems to be 50/50 as to whether you'll get checked coming into Colchester on the down or up - even when nothing is there and the preceding trains are several blocks away. Had the same issue at Witham on the up yesterday - very slow for the sigs to clear before the loop and through the station despite the preceding train being way ahead.

 

[306024]

Has the timetable been altered to take into account the removal of Motts Lane LC - which used to cause all the northbound Witham stoppers to enter the platform on a red?

It has now but all trains have [1] recovery time approaching Witham so it may not appear to have changed in practice. If you’re on time from Chelmsford with no TSRs you’ll be waiting time at Witham unless the driver crawls along.

There’s a few other points I’ll do my best to explain. Certainly haven’t noticed routes slow to clear under normal ARS operation in the past, but haven’t been near a train for three months. Technicians can make some signals approach controlled, a technique used for slowing trains during the V festivals at Chelmsford in days gone by for example, but not used in normal operation. Live signalling maps are usually instant, but occasionally do lag behind reality.

Is 17 minutes Diss to Norwich particularly slow for a class 90? Maybe on a dry day with a keen driver, but not when you are slipping around. Reliable consistent performance is more important than setting world speed records. Checks coming into Colchester on the up are rare in my experience unless allowed for in the timetable. There was a TSR around Parsons Heath for a while pre-Covid, but much more likely to be checked on the down. One common check that remains is 2 yellows after Shenfield for Ingatestone barriers.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has the timetable been altered to take into account the removal of Motts Lane LC - which used to cause all the northbound Witham stoppers to enter the platform on a red?

You wouldn’t believe how difficult it was to close that crossing, nor how much it cost to run each year!

But sometimes - checking the live signalling maps - the route setting seems to be a bit tardy - and signals slow to clear - even when nothing appears to be in the way or causing a conflict.

Often caused by signaller workload - if the signaller is on a call dealing with (say) a level crossing matter or a line blockage, he/she needs to concentrate on that and not setting routes. No ARS east of Marks Tey either.

 

[DannyMich2018]

I’m astonished at that.



As well as dozens of level crossings, and the OLE, what’s underneath the track is a major problem. The track engineer for the patch once told me that with a lot of work he could probably get it to 125mph, but at the first long spell of dry weather, or wet weather, it would almost certainly be back to 100mph.

Besides the gains would be relatively small - a minute and a half Diss to Norwich, less than a minute Haughley to Diss, with many, many fewer passengers to benefit from the higher speeds on the lines you mention.

Yes I can guess, imagine it's best to try and reduce journey times by taking out any slack due to the better accelleration of the Class 745s, What are line speeds south of Ipswitch like can't see many even 100mph stretches?

 

[dk1]

Yes I can guess, imagine it's best to try and reduce journey times by taking out any slack due to the better accelleration of the Class 745s, What are line speeds south of Ipswitch like can't see many even 100mph stretches?

All 100mph from Ipswich to Chelmsford (apart from 70 through Manningtree & 90mph through Colchester) then a mix of 85/90 to Shenfield, 90 Shenfield to Maryland then 80 to Mile End.

 

[Dave1987]

Yes I can guess, imagine it's best to try and reduce journey times by taking out any slack due to the better accelleration of the Class 745s, What are line speeds south of Ipswitch like can't see many even 100mph stretches?

But you can't because no matter how fast a 745 is at accelerating you still have very sluggish 321's operating the outer suburban services. Once the 720's are in service and the journey times on the outer suburban services are speeded up then the 745's will be able to use their speed as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

But you can't because no matter how fast a 745 is at accelerating you still have very sluggish 321's operating the outer suburban services. Once the 720's are in service and the journey times on the outer suburban services are speeded up then the 745's will be able to use their speed as well.

This is true.

Given that the permanent timetable needs to be confirmed the best part of 6 months before it starts, would anyone like to suggest a timetable start date for when the GA timetables can be amended? The people developing the timetables will need to be absolutely sure that all services proposed to be formed of 720s will be, otherwise the timetable will fall apart rapidly. So they will need a guarantee that the fleet will be fully delivered, and in service, before developing the timetsble that will start after that. When will this be?

 

[43074]

This is true.

Given that the permanent timetable needs to be confirmed the best part of 6 months before it starts, would anyone like to suggest a timetable start date for when the GA timetables can be amended? The people developing the timetables will need to be absolutely sure that all services proposed to be formed of 720s will be, otherwise the timetable will fall apart rapidly. So they will need a guarantee that the fleet will be fully delivered, and in service, before developing the timetsble that will start after that. When will this be?

I certainly wouldn't want to bet any earlier than December 2023 based on your last comment about WAML needing to be done with the ECML recast, but it would allow late deliveries of 720s to not impact the timetable.

 

[Bald Rick]

I certainly wouldn't want to bet any earlier than December 2023 based on your last comment about WAML needing to be done with the ECML recast, but it would allow late deliveries of 720s to not impact the timetable.

The WAML and GEML recasts can be done separately, and ideally will be to spread the workload for everyone.

But I wouldn’t want to be the person advising the stakeholders, or the Secretary of State, that they have to wait 3 1/2 years...