National express West Midlands

[carlberry]

Indeed Carl - there was an investigation into the purchase of SB Holdings (Strathclyde Buses) by First Group by the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. As a consequence of a subsequent investigation, there were various stipulations imposed and these were later expanded when they got the Scotrail franchise. However, as they had managed to fundamentally mismanage large parts of the business (e.g. East Lothian, Borders etc) and so lost much of their potential monopoly, and lost Scotrail, they were able to go to the MMC's successor (CMA) and successfully argue that they be released from those undertakings.

We shall prove, in this very court, that our management team already poses more of a threat to our business than any potential competitor!

 

[Robertj21a]

and long may NXWM continue to have such a service for the West Midlands.

Quite. A good example of how a near-monopoly works well for all concerned.

 

[tbtc]

I think there were some issues with the scottish purchases, certainly whewas n they also got Scotrail, however they were covered by various undertakings. The point with the west midlands is that, monoploy or not, that was how it was when the time came of tit to be set up as an arms length company and, therefore, could be sold off as such and the competition authorities couldn't effect that as it wasn't sold off to a group with any other local interests (coaches are assumed to be separate from the bus market). There have always been companies competing with it however none have got anywhere really and the majority haven't gone for quality when doing so! The quality contract which, I believe, covers most of central Birmingham now managed to move most of the remaining ones out because of the need to improve vehicle specs.

Indeed Carl - there was an investigation into the purchase of SB Holdings (Strathclyde Buses) by First Group by the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. As a consequence of a subsequent investigation, there were various stipulations imposed and these were later expanded when they got the Scotrail franchise. However, as they had managed to fundamentally mismanage large parts of the business (e.g. East Lothian, Borders etc) and so lost much of their potential monopoly, and lost Scotrail, they were able to go to the MMC's successor (CMA) and successfully argue that they be released from those undertakings.

Interesting - cheers - I'd remembered the "stipulations" as only kicking in once they started running ScotRail (maybe worth mentioning, since this is a thread about National Express and "monopolies" that the coach operator had to sell the "Caledonian Express" operations when they were awarded the ScotRail franchise in the mid '90s).

But any restrictions in the central belt can't have been as big as, say, Arriva having to sell one depot of operations in Liverpool (to Stagecoach)? Liverpool is a bigger market than the central belt?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting - cheers - I'd remembered the "stipulations" as only kicking in once they started running ScotRail (maybe worth mentioning, since this is a thread about National Express and "monopolies" that the coach operator had to sell the "Caledonian Express" operations when they were awarded the ScotRail franchise in the mid '90s).

But any restrictions in the central belt can't have been as big as, say, Arriva having to sell one depot of operations in Liverpool (to Stagecoach)? Liverpool is a bigger market than the central belt?

It is perhaps a little inconsistent. Perhaps it was that there was Lothian in Edinburgh and Stagecoach in Glasgow so competition did exist whilst Arriva WAS the competition to MTL.

Perhaps more interesting was the treatment of Stagecoach, doubtless as a result of the bad press of Darlington (which Souter has subsequently acknowledged did them no favours though they had numerous other instances of sharp practice that also probably didn't endear them). Stagecoach bought 20% of Mainline but were obliged to divest this, IIRC. Similarly, as mentioned earlier, Stagecoach bought CHL Group (aka MK Citybus, Cambus and Viscount) but were also obliged to divest the Huntingdon and Milton Keynes operations. The former was particularly odd as they have subsequently reacquired it with no issues!!

As Neil in Bletchley right notes, the view now would be that MK may well have done well in having Stagecoach as its operator rather than Status Group or Arriva. Perhaps a sign of its (partial) rehabilitation in some quarters.

 

[Statto]

It is perhaps a little inconsistent. Perhaps it was that there was Lothian in Edinburgh and Stagecoach in Glasgow so competition did exist whilst Arriva WAS the competition to MTL.

Perhaps more interesting was the treatment of Stagecoach, doubtless as a result of the bad press of Darlington (which Souter has subsequently acknowledged did them no favours though they had numerous other instances of sharp practice that also probably didn't endear them). Stagecoach bought 20% of Mainline but were obliged to divest this, IIRC. Similarly, as mentioned earlier, Stagecoach bought CHL Group (aka MK Citybus, Cambus and Viscount) but were also obliged to divest the Huntingdon and Milton Keynes operations. The former was particularly odd as they have subsequently reacquired it with no issues!!

As Neil in Bletchley right notes, the view now would be that MK may well have done well in having Stagecoach as its operator rather than Status Group or Arriva. Perhaps a sign of its (partial) rehabilitation in some quarters.

Speaking of Arriva/MTL, Arriva were forced to sell Gillmoss depot in Liverpool after they brought MTL, as Arriva were deemed too dominant, Gillmoss went to an independent company Glenvale Transport Limited[GTL] GTL were an horrific company all the vehicles were second hand, new vehicles were ones they acquired after buying CMT, that were new to CMT, GTL had half the fleet ordered of the road at one point they were so unroadworthy. GTL were brought by Stagecoach who still use the GTL trading name.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As Neil in Bletchley right notes, the view now would be that MK may well have done well in having Stagecoach as its operator rather than Status Group or Arriva. Perhaps a sign of its (partial) rehabilitation in some quarters.

I believe Stagey planned a completely new fleet (still minibuses, but that was a product of its time) under the Street Shuttle brand...of course, once forced to divest, they took their buses home with them and Status Group carried on with all sorts of second hand kit which was generally well looked-after and was run with a well-meaning attitude and a nice local feel[1], but all somewhat underfunded.

[1] It very much had the feel of a municipal - and when Arriva bought it out some people actually thought it was being privatised at that point, including if I recall a number of stories in the press stating incorrectly that "Arriva had got the contract" and the likes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I believe Stagey planned a completely new fleet (still minibuses, but that was a product of its time) under the Street Shuttle brand...of course, once forced to divest, they took their buses home with them and Status Group carried on with all sorts of second hand kit which was generally well looked-after and was run with a well-meaning attitude and a nice local feel[1], but all somewhat underfunded.

[1] It very much had the feel of a municipal - and when Arriva bought it out some people actually thought it was being privatised at that point, including if I recall a number of stories in the press stating incorrectly that "Arriva had got the contract" and the likes.

There is someone who used to work for MK Metro who also contributed onto this board (but not seen them for a while). I also had a bit of insight with them and...

When it was CHL, the operation was really quite weak. Lots of elderly Merc minibuses including rebodying some of them!!! Then they bought a couple of local firms and they were equipped with Bristol REs and VRs. Stagecoach came in but with the OFT/MMC referral, most of the plans went on hold until the outcome. Hence when it was divested to Status Group, it was even more moribund!

To be fair to Julian Peddle, he did a decent job in sorting out the fleet. There were quite a few Varios tbh, but also Darts and early Solos so they did update the fleet and sort out the routes etc. They also vacated the Winterhill site which was a really dive by that time.

 

[higthomas]

I find the whole idea of bus monopolies very strange. To most passengers who use just the one route, I'd guess about 90% of cases they face a monopoly. They don't care that there happens to be another operator on the other side of town breaking up the theoretical monopoly.

 

[Robertj21a]

There is someone who used to work for MK Metro who also contributed onto this board (but not seen them for a while). I also had a bit of insight with them and...

When it was CHL, the operation was really quite weak. Lots of elderly Merc minibuses including rebodying some of them!!! Then they bought a couple of local firms and they were equipped with Bristol REs and VRs. Stagecoach came in but with the OFT/MMC referral, most of the plans went on hold until the outcome. Hence when it was divested to Status Group, it was even more moribund!

To be fair to Julian Peddle, he did a decent job in sorting out the fleet. There were quite a few Varios tbh, but also Darts and early Solos so they did update the fleet and sort out the routes etc. They also vacated the Winterhill site which was a really dive by that time.

At least Julian has always had enough common sense to see where he needs to get to in any business he operates. Today's Centrebus/High Peak/D&G/Midland Classic/Select etc etc owe a good deal to his business acumen when faced with operations that may have borderline finances.

 

[Statto]

I find the whole idea of bus monopolies very strange. To most passengers who use just the one route, I'd guess about 90% of cases they face a monopoly. They don't care that there happens to be another operator on the other side of town breaking up the theoretical monopoly.

Plenty of areas don't lend themselves to competition though, demographics of the population, or size of the town/city or both, on Merseyside in particular the Arriva/Stagecoach has now morphed into more sensible quality bus partnership were they operate over common routes, tickets issued by one operator is valid on the other, also even frequencies so you don't get one behind the other then a long wait for the next service, although traffic conditions can alter things.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Speaking of Arriva/MTL, Arriva were forced to sell Gillmoss depot in Liverpool after they brought MTL, as Arriva were deemed too dominant, Gillmoss went to an independent company Glenvale Transport Limited[GTL] GTL were an horrific company all the vehicles were second hand, new vehicles were ones they acquired after buying CMT, that were new to CMT, GTL had half the fleet ordered of the road at one point they were so unroadworthy. GTL were brought by Stagecoach who still use the GTL trading name.

Weren't they the company who at one point were buying pretty much every Leyland Titan and MCW Metrobus coming out of London (buses which had already done 20+ years of graft in the capital), and then replacing these with hundreds of dirt cheap Volvo B6s and early Darts (which were dirt cheap because no-one wanted them)? I vaguely remember a fawning write-up of GTL in a Buses issue in 2004.

 

[Mwanesh]

You can go back to Trent's actions vs Camms during the Hucknall Bus War, Trent's fare to Hucknall was around 85 pence, Camm's come along and Trent dropped the price to 20 pence, they then ran buses for free! The law states you can only price match not undercut. It is also illegal under the 1985 Transport act to run loss making services, which wellglade did to Premiere with its Bargain bus and Kinchbus 9 running to Loughborough for £5 a week!

What of Rotala when they Wessex undercut First Bristol and then First went all guns blazing and ran them off the road .Every bus firm has had issues .

 

[Statto]

Weren't they the company who at one point were buying pretty much every Leyland Titan and MCW Metrobus coming out of London (buses which had already done 20+ years of graft in the capital), and then replacing these with hundreds of dirt cheap Volvo B6s and early Darts (which were dirt cheap because no-one wanted them)? I vaguely remember a fawning write-up of GTL in a Buses issue in 2004.

It was more Arriva left GTL with ex London stock Titans & Metrobuses, some[not all] GTL drivers were thieving from GTL, taking money from the cash box & all that, GTL couldn't afford to repair one of the ex CMT Volvos, GTL had a whiff of cowboy operator, apparently Go Ahead were in to buy GTL, but got outbid at the last minute by Stagecoach

 

[carlberry]

What of Rotala when they Wessex undercut First Bristol and then First went all guns blazing and ran them off the road .Every bus firm has had issues .

That'll be the Wessex that slowly lost all it's contracts to other operators then decided to give up completely and flog what remained to Stagecoach?

 

[TUC]

More importantly, they have a long standing (pre dereg) single operator travelcard with a huge take up, making it well nigh impossible for any other operator to successfully break into the market.

Although if I were the CMA, I’d be looking at requiring NXWM to open up the travel card to other operators. That would help reduce market dominance.

 

[carlberry]

Although if I were the CMA, I’d be looking at requiring NXWM to open up the travel card to other operators. That would help reduce market dominance.

As there's no takeovers involved the CMA could only get involved if there was evidence that the local bus network wasn't working properly in some way. The area is fairly stable and theres a range of multi operator tickets available anyway, the major issue appears to be the major operators policy of renumbering routes towards some goal of having every bus service with the number 1 so I cant see the CMA getting involved any time soon.

 

[Robertj21a]

Although if I were the CMA, I’d be looking at requiring NXWM to open up the travel card to other operators. That would help reduce market dominance.

Surely, there's already a Network ticket covering all operators anyway ?

 

[Statto]

Not realy a major issue where a route in Birmingham and a route in Wolverhampton or Walsall have the same number. At least not as big as it is made out to be. Most passengers in Birmingham wouldn't know the other route exists, same for the other way round.

Sutton Coldfield could have been fun with the 905 renumbering as they already have a 5 Sutton Coldfield-West Bromwich [renumbered from 405], but they renumbered it to X5.
13 Walsall-Dudley was renumbered to 11A[was 313] to avoid confusion with another 13 in the Sandwell & Dudley area, although the 13/A/B doesn't go near Dudley[forgotten what they were renumbered from]

 

[Pat1105]

News that Bordesley garage is to close in October. Vehicles & routes being relocated to other garages:
8A/C - Perry Barr
17 - Acocks Green
55 - Birmingham Central

 

[317 forever]

News that Bordesley garage is to close in October. Vehicles & routes being relocated to other garages:
8A/C - Perry Barr
17 - Acocks Green
55 - Birmingham Central

Ironically these seem to have reached Bordesley from other closed garages Hockley, Lea Hall and Washwood Heath respectively. Route 8a/c had been Birmingham Central, and IIRC only moved to HY because space was needed at BC for routes from Quinton, another garage that closed.

 

[WM Bus]

Ironically these seem to have reached Bordesley from other closed garages Hockley, Lea Hall and Washwood Heath respectively. Route 8a/c had been Birmingham Central, and IIRC only moved to HY because space was needed at BC for routes from Quinton, another garage that closed.

55 moved to Lea Hall following Washwood Heath Closure, following Lea Hall closure it moved to Birmingham Central for a short time (so that has also been at Birmingham Central before) and moved to Bordesley in 2011.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Sutton Coldfield could have been fun with the 905 renumbering as they already have a 5 Sutton Coldfield-West Bromwich [renumbered from 405], but they renumbered it to X5.
13 Walsall-Dudley was renumbered to 11A[was 313] to avoid confusion with another 13 in the Sandwell & Dudley area, although the 13/A/B doesn't go near Dudley[forgotten what they were renumbered from]

128/129 was it?

 

[adrock1976]

Ironically these seem to have reached Bordesley from other closed garages Hockley, Lea Hall and Washwood Heath respectively. Route 8a/c had been Birmingham Central, and IIRC only moved to HY because space was needed at BC for routes from Quinton, another garage that closed.

Regarding Quinton, I remember that they took on some routes from Dudley and most from Harts Hill when they closed in 1993. Practically, if I remember right, it was mainly the routes that served Halesowen and Stourbridge, with the remaining routes being revised and transferred to Wolverhampton and West Bromwich.

Although my memory may be patchy as it was so long ago and as I left the West Midlands in 1998, this is my possible recollection of 1993.

Dudley routes:
126 transferred to Wolverhampton
140/241 went to Quinton
120 and 88 went to Hockley (the only ones to do so at the time)
87 went to West Bromwich, also 247/248 for a short while until transferred to Quinton
282/283/285 was revised to run as 226 between Merry Hill Centre and Bilston, interworking with a route revised 138 Merry Hill Centre - Birmingham via Blackheath and Brandhall. Dudley - Sedgley section covered by revised 541. Transferred to Wolverhampton
257 transferred to Wolverhampton
243 transferred to Wolverhampton, interworked with every second journey of the 558. 243 was later withdrawn daytime but was operated by Stephensons of Uttoxeter for a short while

Harts Hill routes:
137 transferred to Quinton
261/264/265 transferred to Wolverhampton
9 transferred to Quinton
291/2/3/4/5/8/9 transferred to Quinton
245/6 transferred to Walsall, then became incorporated with the 311/313
242 Cradley Heath - Kinver transferred to West Bromwich
240 Stourbridge - Cradley Heath transferred to West Bromwich

Just before I left the West Midlands in 1998, Quinton closed with the Brierley Hill, Halesowen, and Stourbridge routes transferring to Pensnett (as WMT's sister company at the time Travel Merry Hill (formerly Merry Hill Buses) had the garage there), and the Birmingham routes going to Birmingham Central. The 21 Birmingham - Bangham Pit via QE Hospital and the 29 Birmingham - Northfield (The Bell) via Harborne and Weoley Castle went to Yardley Wood.

I don't know if anyone in those parts of the West Midlands can fill in some missing blanks or not.

 

[317 forever]

Oh yes, the closure of Hartshill and even Dudley thicken the plot a bit.

West Midlands Travel and National Express West Midlands have certainly consolidated their operations into fewer depots over the years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Oh yes, the closure of Hartshill and even Dudley thicken the plot a bit.

West Midlands Travel and National Express West Midlands have certainly consolidated their operations into fewer depots over the years.

I guess when you've got space in existing depots and relatively small distances, it makes sense although I do miss some of those large imposing depot sites like Hockley and Quinton.

Though it was before my time, Dudley was a bit cramped (?) and on the relief road alignment so it made sense to go but always thought Harts Hill was perhaps unlucky to go as the last major depot in the area.

 

[DavidGrain]

I don't know where else to put this comment but yesterday I saw an NXWM bus running on the 002 route (Weoley Castle to Merry Hill) which is a Diamond route. It passed a Diamond bus going in the opposite direction.

 

[WM Bus]

I don't know where else to put this comment but yesterday I saw an NXWM bus running on the 002 route (Weoley Castle to Merry Hill) which is a Diamond route. It passed a Diamond bus going in the opposite direction.

Are you sure it wasn't just a red west midlands buses branded diamond bus - one of the ones that Diamond use on the 31/32 or 42/43?
As NXWM don't have any journeys on that route.

 

[Pat1105]

I don't know where else to put this comment but yesterday I saw an NXWM bus running on the 002 route (Weoley Castle to Merry Hill) which is a Diamond route. It passed a Diamond bus going in the opposite direction.

Nope, not an NX bus. It was 30923 which has West Midlands Bus 31/32 branding.

 

[DavidGrain]

Nope, not an NX bus. It was 30923 which has West Midlands Bus 31/32 branding.

Well it certainly fooled me.
Photo SV Transport Photography on Flickr

 

[M60lad]

How many West Midlands garages are still standing whether in use by them or in use by another company?

Whereabouts were the closed Depots as love to know whats there now on Google Streetview?