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HS2 service if Phase 2 is scrapped

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si404

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Its unlikely Manchester will have 3tph on HS2 from 2028 opening. Old Oak Common will not have sufficient capacity for all the phase 1 and 2a services. Its likely at least one WCML Pendolino Manchester - Euston service will be needed until Euston HS2 opens in 2031.
Indeed - the plan is, until Euston opens (with or without phase 2a):

3 OOC-Birmingham Interchange-Birmingham Curzon Street
1 OOC-Crewe-Runcorn-Liverpool
1 OOC-Warrington Bank Quay-Wigan North Western-Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow
1 OOC-Wilmslow-Stockport-Manchester
 
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HSTEd

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As regards the capacity of OOC for terminating services, I think the example of Fenchurch street is instructive.
 

Chester1

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Indeed - the plan is, until Euston opens (with or without phase 2a):

3 OOC-Birmingham Interchange-Birmingham Curzon Street
1 OOC-Crewe-Runcorn-Liverpool
1 OOC-Warrington Bank Quay-Wigan North Western-Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow
1 OOC-Wilmslow-Stockport-Manchester

That will mean both Pendolino Stoke services staying until 2031?
 

JonathanH

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As regards the capacity of OOC for terminating services, I think the example of Fenchurch street is instructive.
Fenchurch Street (and Charing Cross for that matter) have tracks designed for the intensity of their service and passenger loading characteristics unlike that of the long-distance railway. There is no way that Old Oak Common could be set up in the same manner.
 

mmh

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Fenchurch Street (and Charing Cross for that matter) have tracks designed for the intensity of their service and passenger loading characteristics unlike that of the long-distance railway. There is no way that Old Oak Common could be set up in the same manner.

That's rather overstating it. Both of them are traditional terminuses and their layouts are far from optimised for a high service level. You wouldn't build Charing Cross bridge as it is today, and there's no reason OOC needs to be built the same - it won't be.
 

HSTEd

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Fenchurch Street (and Charing Cross for that matter) have tracks designed for the intensity of their service and passenger loading characteristics unlike that of the long-distance railway. There is no way that Old Oak Common could be set up in the same manner.

If this is a long distance railway that ends just north of Birmingham, then it is unlikely that the bulk of the services using it will be the conventional "Intercity" kind.
We can turn it into a quasi Metropolitan line using only two or three platforms, and run a rump intercity service with the other three.

EDIT:

It's certainly more tenable than leaving an extraordinarily expensive main line essentially vacant so you can preserve an "all intercity railway".
That's exactly the sort of position that would make ever getting Phase 2 politically impossible.
 
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si404

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As regards the capacity of OOC for terminating services, I think the example of Fenchurch street is instructive.
I'm not sure it is - dwell time is going to be longer due to the stock being set up for comfortable long journeys, rather than capacity for commuters. Door positions, expectations wrt luggage and so on...

Even though Euston-Crewe (on HS2) is quicker than Euston Square-Chesham (on a stopper), quasi Metropolitan line is not going to cut it. Pretty much everyone on HS2 will be traveling for 40+ minutes, rather than most people spending less than 20 minutes on the Met - and so removing seats for standees as the Met did isn't viable!
It's certainly more tenable than leaving an extraordinarily expensive main line essentially vacant so you can preserve an "all intercity railway".
That's exactly the sort of position that would make ever getting Phase 2 politically impossible.
If you can terminate a load of trains at Old Oak Common, then - as many anti-HS2 people have suggested - why not just terminate it there, save a load of controversial construction and a good few billion to boot? Without Euston being needed for Phase 1, Phase 2 becomes more politically difficult than it would with just the negative a couple of years where a reduced service is run on a line not-yet complete...

Effectively the initial service from OOC is about getting some form of 'preview service' open without having to wait for Euston to open. It's like the Jubilee line running Stratford-North Greenwich, or the Elizabeth line's original plan to have a period where they ran Heathrow - Paddington (high level), Paddington (low level) - Abbey Wood and Liverpool Street (high level) - Shenfield all disconnected. Except it's a couple of years, rather than a couple of months.
That will mean both Pendolino Stoke services staying until 2031?
Certainly there would be at least 2 (if not the current 3) tph on the WCML between Euston and Manchester until HS2 reaches Euston.

I'd imagine the WCML would stay pretty much same when OOC-Birmingham/Crewe opens, with the major recast happening when Euston opens. But that Manchester service might be a diversion, and I guess if Liverpool has a second tph before HS2 phase 1a opens, I'd imagine that would also be a diversion.
 

JonathanH

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Certainly there would be at least 2 (if not the current 3) tph on the WCML between Euston and Manchester until HS2 reaches Euston.
Surely it won't be possible to have an extra path into Manchester Piccadilly to have both classic and HS2 services operating so a HS2 train must reduce the number of Classic services - eg the xx55 will go to Old Oak Common and the xx15 and xx35 go to Euston.

I'd imagine the WCML would stay pretty much same when OOC-Birmingham/Crewe opens, with the major recast happening when Euston opens. But that Manchester service might be a diversion, and I guess if Liverpool has a second tph before HS2 phase 1a opens, I'd imagine that would also be a diversion.
It would be interesting to know what can be done with the xx07 and xx40 path from Euston - possibly extra Watford stops in the Chester and Scotland via Birmingham services.
 

CW2

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Maybe I can be permitted to re-frame the question, for the sake of some clarity?
Assuming the following service patterns (as quoted by Si404 above and Wikipedia):

Phase 1 startup services from Old Oak Common

3 OOC-Birmingham Interchange-Birmingham Curzon Street
1 OOC-Wilmslow-Stockport-Manchester
1 OOC-Warrington Bank Quay-Wigan North Western-Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow
1 OOC-Crewe-Runcorn-Liverpool

Phase 1 services from Euston

3 Eus-OOC-Birmingham Interchange-Birmingham Curzon Street
3 Eus-OOC-Wilmslow*-Stockport-Manchester (*Only 1tph calls Wilmslow)
1 Eus-OOC-Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow
1 Eus-OOC-Stafford-Runcorn-Liverpool
1 Eus-OOC-Crewe-Runcorn-Liverpool
1 Eus-OOC-Crewe-Warrington BQ-Wigan NW-Preston-Lancaster

Phase 2A services from Euston

3 Eus-OOC-Birmingham Interchange-Birmingham Curzon Street
3 Eus-OOC-Wilmslow*-Stockport-Manchester (*Only 1tph calls Wilmslow)
1 Eus-OOC-Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow
1 Eus-OOC-Crewe-Runcorn-Liverpool
1 Eus-OOC-Crewe (DIVIDE) A:Runcorn-Liverpool; B:Warrington BQ-Wigan NW-Preston-Lancaster
1 Eus-OOC-Stafford-Stoke-Macclesfield

I can't see any note in the current plans for running trains HS2 from Birmingham to the North until the entire Phase 2 network is completed.
So, my question is:
Given the service patterns outlined above, what changes could / should / must be made to the existing network, both to accommodate the HS2 services passing over the classic network and also to make best use of the released capacity?
There is probably no singular "right" answer, but please try to justify your answer with something a bit more than "I want more trains to stop at my local station."
 

London Trains

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Given the service patterns outlined above, what changes could / should / must be made to the existing network, both to accommodate the HS2 services passing over the classic network and also to make best use of the released capacity?

For the Phase 1 startup, the only changes I think would happen would be the removal of the Euston to Manchester via Wilmslow service and the removal of any peak time Liverpool services at xx:33 from Euston.

Once Phase 1 reaches Euston, I would assume the WCML timetable would be revamped to have 2tph to Birmingham (both calling MK and Rugby), 2tph to Manchester both via Stoke (both calling MK and Macclesfield), 1tph as now to Chester / North Wales (no change to MK call) and the complete removal of all Liverpool and Glasgow services.

Phase 2a would likely then see the removal of one of the classic Manchester services since Stoke gets a HS2 service.
 

HSTEd

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I'm not sure it is - dwell time is going to be longer due to the stock being set up for comfortable long journeys, rather than capacity for commuters. Door positions, expectations wrt luggage and so on...

Door positions are not an immutable characteristic of high speed stock?
And most people travelling on HS2 will not be travelling with lots of luggage......

In the situation where Phase 2 gets axed, there will be no market for all these intercity trains.
We will have to fill Phase 1 however we can.

If you can terminate a load of trains at Old Oak Common, then - as many anti-HS2 people have suggested - why not just terminate it there, save a load of controversial construction and a good few billion to boot?
Because optimally we would have longer turnaround times and less intensive operation?

I'm talking about getting the most out of the rump scheme we are now likely to end up with.
 

The Ham

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I suspect that at least all the WCML oriented parts of HS2 would be built, why? Due to the passenger growth seen. Therefore any such discussion about the canceling of Phase 2 is a little premature.

The rest of this post provides some of the training behind this statement (so feel to skip over it if you're not interested).

Based on 2.5% growth year on year the opening of Phase 1 (2026) would have reached 152 passengers for every 100 in 2009.

By 2018/19 this had reached 175.

That's virtually the figure for the opening of Phase 2 (2036) 177.

Screenshot_20200414-102620.png

Only there's a problem, the business case from 2013 is based on passenger growth of 2.2% from 2010 onwards. This drops the phase two opening (2032) to 165 of the 2009 figure. As such all opening year predictions have been exceeded.

That's before any growth from faster trains or extra capacity.

With that sort of passenger growth already set the overall likelihood of phase 2 bit being built is going to be fairly low.

Now obviously future use can't be relied upon based on past data. With the being much said about working from home reducing overall travel.

However, this is where looking at that in isolation causes a few problems.

Firstly there comes a point where cars are too costly to run for the limited number of miles which they are used for.

Therefore if you were doing 10,000 miles a year and you then do all your work from home, your miles per year could well fall by 6,000 miles a year (~13 miles each way to work).

That's potentially going to change the cost per mile of your car significantly, making it less viable to run. Especially if you then cut a load more miles by getting more if you're shopping online. As if it previously cost 25p/mile you'd have to be quite a long way from the supermarket to recoup the cost of the delivery slot. However at 53p/mile that's going to be a much closer call, even if it's not cheaper the inconvenience of going out is going to factor (staying in isn't as you'll be doing that for work anyway, so lunchtime delivery slot wouldn't be a problem).

Quite a bit of the remaining <4,000 miles is likely to be shorter than 3 miles, so very suitable for walking/cycling, especially if aided by the use of an e-bike.

Some may well still be undertaken by car (either taxi or hire car), but fairly easily 1,500 miles could be done by rail.

If we saw a 6.25% shift from road to rail that would increase the use of rail by 50% of that seen in 2019.

That compares to a maximum of a 25% fall in rail use (as 25% of people would look to work from home). The reason that's a maximum, is that for that to be the case that would require:
100% of rail travel to be related to work, and it's not. WCML is about half.
0 days in the office a year, it's highly likely that most people would still be required in an office 23 days a year (the equivalent of 1/10 days) or more frequently than that.

Therefore even is we assume a 10% drop in rail passengers then all that would do is drop those 175 passengers seen in 2018 to 157, which so isn't that far off the 165 of the opening of Phase 2, and still ahead of the opening of Phase 1.

Even if there's no growth until Phase 1 opens, then there's likely to be an increase in passenger numbers again due to the reduced journey times.

All this excludes any impact of Covid-19 on air travel and any further limits placed on car travel to reduce our carbon emissions.

On carbon emissions, the current rail network averages 0.59 tonnes of CO2e emissions per 10,000 miles per passenger of traction emissions whilst EV's create 0.60 tonnes on the same basis.

Whist that may assist a tiny amount there's a few key things to beat in mind:

EV's can only reduce their emissions by greening the grid, rail can do that and reduce the number of miles traveled by diesel trains (2023 is likely to be much lower with the removal of 221's from Avanti services and the revival of 222's from EMT before then).

Not all travel by car is possible by rail, as it's hard to travel a mile or two by rail, as such 10,000 miles by car is likely to be less than this distance by rail if you have to your car and went by rail everywhere. Not least because of the extra distances often traveled just to park.

The maintenance, per route mile, is lower for rail over the strategic road network. Network Rail (9,800 miles) have a baseline of 300,000 tonnes, which they are bettering (I believe last year this was by 17%), this compares with a minimum from the last 5 years of 330,000 tonnes (total for the 5 years was 2,100,000 tonnes) for the strategic road network (4,800 miles).

Therefore, of we are going to reach our net carbon emissions rail is likely to need to take a bigger role, even if overall miles decrease.

As such, unless rail use plummets, then I suspect that any discussion about what might happen in phase 2 is cancelled is a bit of a waste of time.

If course if anyone has any evidence or a theory as to why rail use would fall, then feel free to share it here.
 

HSTEd

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If course if anyone has any evidence or a theory as to why rail use would fall, then feel free to share it here.

The current economic collapse, the cause of which is being discussed in detail on a different part of those forum?
 

Ianno87

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Door positions are not an immutable characteristic of high speed stock?
And most people travelling on HS2 will not be travelling with lots of luggage......

In the situation where Phase 2 gets axed, there will be no market for all these intercity trains.
We will have to fill Phase 1 however we can.


Because optimally we would have longer turnaround times and less intensive operation?

I'm talking about getting the most out of the rump scheme we are now likely to end up with.

Long turnround times are also a source of resilience.

For that reason, Old Oak could never be worked like Fenchurch St or Charing Cross - the trains have come in distance terms much further.

Plus it will depend on the track layout available at Old Oak Common station.

For example on HS1, Stratford doesn't have nearly the same turnback capability that St Pancras does.
 

The Ham

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The current economic collapse, the cause of which is being discussed in detail on a different part of those forum?

Whilst that's likely to impact rail use, it's also likely to impact road use more, due to the high upfront costs associated with car ownership.

Let's say that there's a 20% fall in rail use because of an economic crash, well there's also likely to be a 20% fall in car use too, but due to the amount that we drive that's a lot more.

To put into numbers, if all the traveling we do as a country is 1,000 then road usage is 800 and rail about 100.

A 20% fall in rail use = 20
A 20% fall in road use = 160

Therefore is just 12.5% of that fall in road use switched to rail trail would remain level.

Any fall in road use is likely to made up a lot by the getting rid of second cars, as such there'll certainly be some times when when there's a need for travel and so rail could be the option used.

Population growth is likely to limit some of the impact of the fall too.

Anyway infrastructure projects are very useful tools for rebuilding the economy, making the cancellation of HS2 less likely still.

Then there's the airlines, many routes are likely to see reduced services and any that remain are likely to have higher prices. As such some air passengers would also need to (or find it as cheap to) go by rail.

Whilst the ticket price may not be cheaper by the time you've got to/from the airport at each end then the cost can be quite a bit higher.
 

si404

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I'm talking about getting the most out of the rump scheme we are now likely to end up with.
If they stop building Euston, which they are already currently constructing, then some post-hoc reworking of OOC to enable it to turn round more (say a Marylebone level - similarly 8tph off-peak as Fenchurch St, but nowhere near as much peak) would make sense.

But planning now to turn round more at OOC in the period while Euston is still under construction will help turn the scheme into a rump - because you are making Euston less important, you risk losing it.

You won't get the best out of a Y-line if you build just part of the \, that much should be obvious. HS2 phase 1(+2a) has 10tph, phase 2b west (into Manchester/around Warrington) ups the London service by 1tph, phase 2b east ups the London service by 6tph. You can make OOC have the ability to turn around a full 17tph, but other than Birmingham, there's no room for them to go. I highly doubt that, in a world where rail travel is down, you'd want to run umpteen tph to Birmingham just because you can.

Also worth pointing out that the split is at best 40-60 in OOC's favour. If HS2 doesn't reach Euston, you won't need frequent services as a lot of people will much prefer arriving at Euston via the classic line (cf the lobbying to have CR2 not remove Waterloo services from Kingston, etc).
 

Ianno87

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If they stop building Euston, which they are already currently constructing, then some post-hoc reworking of OOC to enable it to turn round more (say a Marylebone level - similarly 8tph off-peak as Fenchurch St, but nowhere near as much peak) would make sense.

But planning now to turn round more at OOC in the period while Euston is still under construction will help turn the scheme into a rump - because you are making Euston less important, you risk losing it.

You won't get the best out of a Y-line if you build just part of the \, that much should be obvious. HS2 phase 1(+2a) has 10tph, phase 2b west (into Manchester/around Warrington) ups the London service by 1tph, phase 2b east ups the London service by 6tph. You can make OOC have the ability to turn around a full 17tph, but other than Birmingham, there's no room for them to go. I highly doubt that, in a world where rail travel is down, you'd want to run umpteen tph to Birmingham just because you can.

Also worth pointing out that the split is at best 40-60 in OOC's favour. If HS2 doesn't reach Euston, you won't need frequent services as a lot of people will much prefer arriving at Euston via the classic line (cf the lobbying to have CR2 not remove Waterloo services from Kingston, etc).

And indeed, decisions made for short-term reasons now will hamstring the scheme forever. Let's build it properly, now!
 

CW2

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The idea that OOC could be a long term solution is a false one. The site is heavily constrained and HS2 have shoe-horned in as much as possible within the available space. If you make it any larger you risk compromising the depot entrance lines for Crossrail, or the GWML, or Kensal Green Cemetery, or housing. It will be difficult enough to operate even a minimalist service in the intervening years. There simply isn't the room to add much more in the way of pointwork or station infrastructure. Euston is the (only) long-term answer. As Ianno87 said: "Let's build it properly, now!"
 

HSTEd

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You won't get the best out of a Y-line if you build just part of the \, that much should be obvious. HS2 phase 1(+2a) has 10tph, phase 2b west (into Manchester/around Warrington) ups the London service by 1tph, phase 2b east ups the London service by 6tph. You can make OOC have the ability to turn around a full 17tph, but other than Birmingham, there's no room for them to go. I highly doubt that, in a world where rail travel is down, you'd want to run umpteen tph to Birmingham just because you can.

The cost of running the extra trains to secondary destinations will be very small, considering the paths are spare.
Essentially a lot of minor services that now terminate in Birmingham would run to London instead.
 

si404

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Essentially a lot of minor services that now terminate in Birmingham would run to London instead.
How do you get them onto HS2 though? Join at Handsacre and reverse at Curzon Street?

Also minor services? So we're looking at filling paths with short-and-slow trains going to pokey places. After all, you talk of a very small cost, so we're not going to get the bespoke classic-compatible high-speed trains...

You seem hell bent on trying to stop a half-built HS2 being a white elephant, not by expanding out its potential by finishing the job, but by doing everything you can to stop further phases being built and turning the line into a pink elephant (a drunken vision).
 

HSTEd

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How do you get them onto HS2 though? Join at Handsacre and reverse at Curzon Street?
Or split a Birmingham/London portion north of Handsacre and run straight through.

The reverse at Curzon option is probably preferable, whilst capacity at Curzon street remains available.

Also minor services? So we're looking at filling paths with short-and-slow trains going to pokey places. After all, you talk of a very small cost, so we're not going to get the bespoke classic-compatible high-speed trains...
The cost of the rolling stock is negligible.

You seem hell bent on trying to stop a half-built HS2 being a white elephant, not by expanding out its potential by finishing the job, but by doing everything you can to stop further phases being built and turning the line into a pink elephant (a drunken vision).
Because the scheme is probably undeliverable.
Closing by eyes, stuffing my fingers in my ears and humming will not change the fact that the momentum is against the scheme, the risk register shows a red for the scheme and the cost just keeps balooning.
 
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si404

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Closing by eyes, stuffing my fingers in my ears and humming will not change the fact that the momentum is against the scheme
Closing your eyes, stuffing your fingers in your ears and humming will not change the fact that your proposals will increase the momentum against the scheme.

The Big Bad Wolf is huffing and puffing at a house being built - your plan to stop it winning is to:
1) not build most of the walls because the Big Bad Wolf told you not to
2) using the materials from those walls to put flammable cladding and fancy artwork on the half-wall that will be built - because a cladded and fancy wall will provide better protection, rather than making something pretty useless more expensive
3) waving flaming torches at anyone suggesting that the best policy to fight the BBW is to build the house as it was originally designed rather than a useless, ignoring that it would just destroy what got built.

If Euston is at risk of not being built, and you want it built, the solution is not to go "oh well, lets remake OOC so we won't need Euston", the solution is to make the case for Euston. And then, only if you've lost, patch OOC. If Phase 2b is at risk of not being built, and you want it built, the solution is not to go "oh well, let's run a load of noddy trains to nowhere, even though that will mean stopping phase 2b from ever happening", it's to make the case for Phase 2b.

You seem to be a cuckoo in the nest - pretending to want HS2 to be a success but campaigning for ideas to make it a failure.
 

mmh

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Surely it won't be possible to have an extra path into Manchester Piccadilly to have both classic and HS2 services operating so a HS2 train must reduce the number of Classic services - eg the xx55 will go to Old Oak Common and the xx15 and xx35 go to Euston.


It would be interesting to know what can be done with the xx07 and xx40 path from Euston - possibly extra Watford stops in the Chester and Scotland via Birmingham services.

I'd like to see the post-HS2 service be more novel than what's gone before. In particular, there seems to be little thought as to what happens to the fast lines north of Rugby. It feels ripe for improving services between the North West and the lower midlands. I'd like to see somewhere between Milton Keynes and Watford (re)gain fast line platforms. Perhaps Leighton Buzzard. A regular stopping pattern for the both the fast and slow lines would give the increased commuter capacity to London so often mentioned, as well as improving northbound connectivity. Ideally the many journeys which currently involve a double back via Euston would largely disappear.
 

HSTEd

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Closing your eyes, stuffing your fingers in your ears and humming will not change the fact that your proposals will increase the momentum against the scheme.
If the scheme is in a position where one random person posting on a web forum, even one as intimately entwined with the industry as this one is, measurably changes the chances of success of the scheme, we are well and truly stuffed.

If Euston is at risk of not being built, and you want it built, the solution is not to go "oh well, lets remake OOC so we won't need Euston", the solution is to make the case for Euston. And then, only if you've lost, patch OOC. If Phase 2b is at risk of not being built, and you want it built, the solution is not to go "oh well, let's run a load of noddy trains to nowhere, even though that will mean stopping phase 2b from ever happening", it's to make the case for Phase 2b.

You seem to be a cuckoo in the nest - pretending to want HS2 to be a success but campaigning for ideas to make it a failure.

The entire premise of the thread is that the schemes gets heavily curtailed?
 

London Trains

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The entire premise of the thread is that the schemes gets heavily curtailed?

Not really. Not bothering to build Euston has many more problems than not building the eastern branch. Phase 1 is very important for relieving the WCML, and not building it to Euston would mean a lot of people wouldnt use HS2 and would carry on using the classic services. Nowhere on this thread have I suggested not building Euston.
 

mmh

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Yes, and it shows what a terrible outcome that would be.

It does however mean less interaction with and alteration of existing services and timetables. Given how difficult such changes are to some, we should perhaps curtail HS2 to be standalone Birmingham to London only.
 

si404

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If the scheme is in a position where one random person posting on a web forum, even one as intimately entwined with the industry as this one is, measurably changes the chances of success of the scheme, we are well and truly stuffed.
I meant if you pink elephant ideas happened - they are like that 'restoration' of that medieval painting that not only failed to do what it wanted, but made it all worse.

As for "random person posting on a web forum", it's amazing how much armchair stuff from the internet was picked up by those trying to come up with ways to stop phase 1 from happening. And as you are "intimately entwined with the industry", you aren't even a 'random person', but an 'industry expert' with a load of weight.
The entire premise of the thread is that the schemes gets heavily curtailed?
Sure, but if HS2 phase 2 is scrapped, per the premise of the thread, then you still don't destroy a lot of the usefulness of phase 1 (especially not getting to Euston - which is part of phase 1 - as you've decided) and kill any possibility of phase 2 in the future by turning it into a commuter-style line with services to minor destinations.

A 10tph intercity line out of London is not that empty (it's busier than HS1) and is perfectly fine. Leave it as-is. There's no need to throw on a load more services just because we can.
 

HSTEd

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As for "random person posting on a web forum", it's amazing how much armchair stuff from the internet was picked up by those trying to come up with ways to stop phase 1 from happening. And as you are "intimately entwined with the industry", you aren't even a 'random person', but an 'industry expert' with a load of weight.

I meant the forum, not me.
I am not entwined with the industry.
A 10tph intercity line out of London is not that empty (it's busier than HS1) and is perfectly fine. Leave it as-is. There's no need to throw on a load more services just because we can.
The line running at half capacity would forever destroy the case for high speed rail in the UK.
HS1 partial failure has already hurt it.
 

cle

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Are the traditional WCML plans all locked in regarding stopping patterns?

It seemed like a big win for MKC (expected) - but not as much for Watford Junction (as busy and deserving) and Rugby which is admittedly a bit smaller.

Hourlies to Manchester and Birmingham are obvious. Chester journey times being preserved makes sense too. But I’d expect a few more Lancs or a slower Liverpool service in there too.
 
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