Availability of on-board catering facilities

[Purple Orange]

Is there anyone who can add a poll in to the thread? It would be good to canvass opinion (on admittedly a very Rail centric audience).

I think the answer sits with who we think will be providing long-distance rail services 15-20 years from now. HS2, NPR, Midlands Engine, a GWR equivalent and legacy services on the WCML and ECML (making a lot of stops along the way).

In the decades to come, long distance rail travel will be completely revolutionised, purely down to the speed of HS2, and it will be HS2 that will be the standard bearer for the rest of the U.K. rail industry. A 200m 8-car train, consisting of both standard and 1st class, may likely only have a shop, with 1st class having complimentary drinks and light food such as savoury and sweet pastries.

Of all the HS2 services, only 4 Euston service and 2 Birmingham services will be significantly longer than 90 minutes (roughly 25% of all HS2 trains per hour). 50% of HS2 tph will be 1 hour or less. Therefore will the DfT or a ToC be happy to provide full service catering for the 25%? I can’t see that scenario bearing fruit and whoever is operating those long-distance services in the future will want a uniform offering, resulting in a uniform cost base for running the services.

Then we will have NPR, which is essentially TPE and part of XC, who are already offering just a trolley service.

We will also have Midlands Engine that have signified their long distance routes from Bristol to Nottingham via New Street. What will they do that is drastically different from XC?

The GWR market remains relatively untouched by it all, so if anything, it could be Paddington long-distance services that retain anything that resembles what we see today.

We will then have the long-distance WCML & ECML services, which will probably be closer in operation to London Northwestern than Avanti or LNER. The rump of the 1st class market will be with HS2 and given that these services may be limited to 110 mph on the WCML, would it not be a class 350 equivalent plus a catering trolley?

 

[AshBod]

I believe EMR are doing the breakfast service in 1st class now.

I'm hoping things return more generally in 1st as I would like to so my next 1st class ALR in the spring.

There's no breakfast service in 1st or standard on EMR. First class have a complimentary AM or PM pre packed bag which contains items like a biscuit, muffin, breakfast bar, juice carton and a bottle of water

 

[MCSHF007]

A major positive of the disappearance of most onboard catering could be a reduction in the constant piffle over the PA as regards the availability (or non-availability as appropriate) of same.

 

[greatvoyager]

I understand the requirement for a shop or trolley on long journeys. Personally, I’ve never been too bothered about the presence of catering. It’s easier to bring food and drink purchased beforehand, which also covers in case the shop or trolley is not available for any reason.

 

[4REP]

With stations such as Plymouth having zero shops open at present to buy refreshments, the sooner a decent level of catering on trains is restored the better.

Why not buy from local shops like sainsburys or tesco before traveling which is what I always do. You can get decent sandwiches etc at reasonable cheeper prices. I usually pop into my sainsbury on Leeds Station and stock up before travelling.
It's better and cheaper and I know I've got something for the journey. I think compass group who run or ran outlets on stations will not be around for much longer and also 5000 redundancies have been announced by compass group who run outlets like Upper crust etc. This is just the Start. And not to mention the pub on Leeds Station is still closed(The Beer House) and probably other rail stations too like Waterloo etc.
Compass group run all pubs and most outlets on rail stations apart from wetherspoons off course. As for on board Catering its always hit and miss and think its truly gone ro rack and ruin and down the kermit anyway. Best go to a local shop or supermarket.

 

[westv]

There's no breakfast service in 1st or standard on EMR. First class have a complimentary AM or PM pre packed bag which contains items like a biscuit, muffin, breakfast bar, juice carton and a bottle of water

Wow! Who needs silver service dining when you can have that?

 

[4REP]

Wow! Who needs silver service dining when you can have that?

Woolworths are coming back and introducing pic N mix on 1st Class catering!!

 

[urbophile]

I was lucky to find bargain-priced Advance First Class tickets for Liverpool to Euston last week (undercutting the cheapest standard class fares). It was mid-day and there was a choice of hot snacks (focaccia/ sausage roll), crisps/biscuits and alcoholic drinks as well as tea/coffee. I don't know if the regular offering is any better than this but it was a pleasant surprise. It appears that the cooked breakfast option is also provided at appropriate times; and the shop/buffet was open as well. Congratulations Avanti!

 

[Taunton]

you're absolutely right that in more recent times, many (especially First Class long distance) carriages have become extensions of the office. That's actually one of the reasons that I particularly dislike complimentary at-seat dining, and the fact that it tends to be dumped on the passenger in parsimonious portions at times to suit the operator and/or staff, rather than the time of day or passenger preferences.

Well for our company nobody uses first class. In fact, from observation it would be empty nowadays were it not filled with those on advances, priced higher than standard advances but paying only a fraction of me and my colleagues on Anytime tickets in standard.

Back in standard, the seats have been progressively squeezed up so much that I find I can't open my laptop adequately to work on it now. Hey, on a recent 5.30pm Manchester to Euston departure, full and standing, in the window seat I couldn't even get my (Anytime) ticket out of my pockets without the man sat next to me half standing into the aisle. And I'm not gross!

Business visitors to our office from the Midlands etc have given up using Cross Country through Reading because of the inability to get a seat there (and sometimes down from Birmingham as well).

 

[FQTV]

Well for our company nobody uses first class. In fact, from observation it would be empty nowadays were it not filled with those on advances, priced higher than standard advances but paying only a fraction of me and my colleagues on Anytime tickets in standard.

Back in standard, the seats have been progressively squeezed up so much that I find I can't open my laptop adequately to work on it now. Hey, on a recent 5.30pm Manchester to Euston departure, full and standing, in the window seat I couldn't even get my (Anytime) ticket out of my pockets without the man sat next to me half standing into the aisle. And I'm not gross!

Business visitors to our office from the Midlands etc have given up using Cross Country through Reading because of the inability to get a seat there (and sometimes down from Birmingham as well).

It completely depends on the company policy, of course and, anecdotally, even where the employee is based (perhaps unexpectedly).

I see far more London-based companies still using Anytimes to travel to provincial appointments, but more provincial companies using Advances to travel to London/SE ones. In the latter case, we're still talking about c£270 Advance Return for something like York > King's Cross in First. Further, throttling of Advance availability in First since Azumas have been introduced into squadron service means that more folks (pre-Covid) have been forced into Off Peak and Anytime Firsts.

However, it's also observable from my specific vantage point that from London, there's a higher propensity for staff at lower grades to travel long distance by train, whereas from the provinces, the profile tends to be more skewed towards the senior staff - and therefore more in First. Perhaps this is a function of higher car ownership outside of London, and particularly company car provision in more provincial areas, compared to those closer to central London. Or it could be the function of other structural nuances and centres of commercial gravity.

Cross Country and Avanti use the same seats on Pendolino and Voyager services, of course, and their Standard Class seats are completely unsuitable for any kind of work, not least because of their postage stamp sized seat back tray tables. This has at least been addressed to a certain extent with IEP trains on GWR, LNER, Transpennine and Hull Trains.

All only vaguely relevant to catering, however, and how provision of facilities might develop to reflect any new patterns and demands post Covid.

 

[GB71]

It completely depends on the company policy, of course and, anecdotally, even where the employee is based (perhaps unexpectedly).

I see far more London-based companies still using Anytimes to travel to provincial appointments, but more provincial companies using Advances to travel to London/SE ones. In the latter case, we're still talking about c£270 Advance Return for something like York > King's Cross in First. Further, throttling of Advance availability in First since Azumas have been introduced into squadron service means that more folks (pre-Covid) have been forced into Off Peak and Anytime Firsts.

However, it's also observable from my specific vantage point that from London, there's a higher propensity for staff at lower grades to travel long distance by train, whereas from the provinces, the profile tends to be more skewed towards the senior staff - and therefore more in First. Perhaps this is a function of higher car ownership outside of London, and particularly company car provision in more provincial areas, compared to those closer to central London. Or it could be the function of other structural nuances and centres of commercial gravity.

Cross Country and Avanti use the same seats on Pendolino and Voyager services, of course, and their Standard Class seats are completely unsuitable for any kind of work, not least because of their postage stamp sized seat back tray tables. This has at least been addressed to a certain extent with IEP trains on GWR, LNER, Transpennine and Hull Trains.

All only vaguely relevant to catering, however, and how provision of facilities might develop to reflect any new patterns and demands post Covid.

Some good points and to get back on to the topic of catering I genuinely don't believe that post COVID catering will be used to re-stimulate demand. I would expect some clever pricing "gimmicks" and maybe even Cross Country coming back into the real world on some of their first class pricing - one can always hope - but I think most people accept catering is now what t is on trains and much as I get misty eyed for the past glories of proper InterCity restaurant cars I just don't see it. What I think will regrettably happen is the focus will be on headline fare price and that "austerity" will be implemented elsewhere to balance the books.

Even the GWR quote further up - whilst I don't dispute is a great service it's on half a dozen trains.

 

[Andy Pacer]

There's no breakfast service in 1st or standard on EMR. First class have a complimentary AM or PM pre packed bag which contains items like a biscuit, muffin, breakfast bar, juice carton and a bottle of water

Interesting. Thanks for the further clarity.

 

[6Gman]

Why not buy from local shops like sainsburys or tesco before traveling which is what I always do. You can get decent sandwiches etc at reasonable cheeper prices. I usually pop into my sainsbury on Leeds Station and stock up before travelling.
It's better and cheaper and I know I've got something for the journey. I think compass group who run or ran outlets on stations will not be around for much longer and also 5000 redundancies have been announced by compass group who run outlets like Upper crust etc. This is just the Start. And not to mention the pub on Leeds Station is still closed(The Beer House) and probably other rail stations too like Waterloo etc.
Compass group run all pubs and most outlets on rail stations apart from wetherspoons off course. As for on board Catering its always hit and miss and think its truly gone ro rack and ruin and down the kermit anyway. Best go to a local shop or supermarket.

Two problems:

1. There isn't always a suitable local shop.
2. Boarding a train can be challenging enough (crowds, luggage etc) without also carrying hot drinks.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Two problems:

1. There isn't always a suitable local shop.
2. Boarding a train can be challenging enough (crowds, luggage etc) without also carrying hot drinks.

Or of course people may have made a mad dash to get the train and not had time on the way for drinks/queuing etc, or just didnt fancy one until they were on board.

 

[williamn]

If I go in the train I have to wear a mask continuously. That feels unpleasant.

If I go by car I don't. Much nicer. The virus is caught from other people. In my car there aren't any.

The railway really is between a rock and a hard place.

There may not be other people in your car, but driving remains much more dangerous than taking the train, even factoring in Covid.

 

[Andy Pacer]

There may not be other people in your car, but driving remains much more dangerous than taking the train, even factoring in Covid.

Especially if you're drinking a hot drink that you couldn't get if you went on the train!

 

[Taunton]

It completely depends on the company policy, of course and, anecdotally, even where the employee is based (perhaps unexpectedly).

I see far more London-based companies still using Anytimes to travel to provincial appointments, but more provincial companies using Advances to travel to London/SE ones. In the latter case, we're still talking about c£270 Advance Return for something like York > King's Cross in First. Further, throttling of Advance availability in First since Azumas have been introduced into squadron service means that more folks (pre-Covid) have been forced into Off Peak and Anytime Firsts.

However, it's also observable from my specific vantage point that from London, there's a higher propensity for staff at lower grades to travel long distance by train, whereas from the provinces, the profile tends to be more skewed towards the senior staff - and therefore more in First. Perhaps this is a function of higher car ownership outside of London, and particularly company car provision in more provincial areas, compared to those closer to central London. Or it could be the function of other structural nuances and centres of commercial gravity.

Cross Country and Avanti use the same seats on Pendolino and Voyager services, of course, and their Standard Class seats are completely unsuitable for any kind of work, not least because of their postage stamp sized seat back tray tables. This has at least been addressed to a certain extent with IEP trains on GWR, LNER, Transpennine and Hull Trains.

All only vaguely relevant to catering, however, and how provision of facilities might develop to reflect any new patterns and demands post Covid.

This is an interesting point, and true. Living and being based in inner London, I think I'm just more "rail minded" (notwithstanding my past knowledge) than those from the provinces, particularly outside the major cities, who sometimes find me travelling there by train a bit of a novelty.

We use Anytimes because commonly Advances etc are not offered on the eg 08.00 departures from London. If I go to Cardiff, say, the train is packed with Reading commuters, then very empty beyond. But, also, this is a business trip. I've no idea when the meeting may finish. Knowing the "old days" when trains just had seats at almost all times, and nobody really thought of booking, it just seems inappropriate that the railway is happy for the person next to me to have paid £30 while I have paid £300 for exactly the same service.

The competition is going by car, when I can leave and arrive just when convenient, at no different price (especially since Mayor Khan made the congestion charge 16x7, so coming home late in the evening I still get hit now).

I do find it inappropriate for the railway to have gone for virtual Metro-style frequencies, such as every 20 minutes from Manchester, but then have an expectation for me to either know what specific departure I can choose, or pay through the nose for an Anytime - particularly when I find I have to stand because far too many seats have been given away to Advances, even on peak period trains. Having to stand on a full Birmingham-Euston 5pm train (which I did not long ago, with many people on midday-departing cheap Edinburgh-London "the long way round" tickets, sold to score one on the ECML operator, is just inappropriate.

 

[4REP]

Two problems:

1. There isn't always a suitable local shop.
2. Boarding a train can be challenging enough (crowds, luggage etc) without also carrying hot drinks.

1.I was referring to Plymouth his station as I know Plymouth there are plenty of places nearby particularly Co op and spa which do Nice Danish etc.
2.if you think boarding a train is challenging because of crowds they would not have time or space for a catering trolley etc. Anyway the point was about his station Plymouth concourse Shops shut during Covid19 you have not completely understood my answer or me at all have you? I were trying to help someone suggest another way as I know plymouth and give him an idea. My reply does not refer to someone who uses another part of the rail network other than Plymouth. You were defensive. Plymouth Station shops are shut because of low passenger use so there will be no crowds like you suggest. So think carefully before you give me short abrupt defensive replies.
It's All about Plymouth!
Thank you

 

[Taunton]

I'm not sure why so many station retail facilities are shut when most outside now are not, but it may be something to do with the rental terms. Does anyone know? Something like if you close no rent is payable but if you open it's the full amount.

 

[4REP]

I'm not sure why so many station retail facilities are shut when most outside now are not, but it may be something to do with the rental terms. Does anyone know? Something like if you close no rent is payable but if you open it's the full amount.

Yes definitely as I stated earlier today 5000 redundancies have been announced by compass group who run them and probably more to follow as low rail usage.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2020 ==

The redundancies were announced over 2 months ago. I know a few people who work for compass is how I have the source of information

 

[Scotrail314209]

I do wonder what Avanti will do for the catering post-COVID.

I wonder if it'll be the current box meal things they have ongoing currently... it would make sense as it'll make HS2 (when/if it comes along) seem all the more fancier and nicer. Also it is First Group, you just need to look at the current First Class offering on GWR.

 

[4REP]

I do wonder what Avanti will do for the catering post-COVID.

I wonder if it'll be the current box meal things they have ongoing currently... it would make sense as it'll make HS2 (when/if it comes along) seem all the more fancier and nicer. Also it is First Group, you just need to look at the current First Class offering on GWR.

Well I can also say that Travelodge and other Hotel organisations are doing box breakfasts. It's a shame that this could possibly be the way forward for many organisations

 

[FQTV]

Well I can also say that Travelodge and other Hotel organisations are doing box breakfasts. It's a shame that this could possibly be the way forward for many organisations

It won’t be. Breakfast is by far and away the most profitable meal service for full-service hotels. As soon as the demand and resource starts to return, hotels can’t wait to get back in the full breakfast business.

 

[irish_rail]

1.I was referring to Plymouth his station as I know Plymouth there are plenty of places nearby particularly Co op and spa which do Nice Danish etc.
2.if you think boarding a train is challenging because of crowds they would not have time or space for a catering trolley etc. Anyway the point was about his station Plymouth concourse Shops shut during Covid19 you have not completely understood my answer or me at all have you? I were trying to help someone suggest another way as I know plymouth and give him an idea. My reply does not refer to someone who uses another part of the rail network other than Plymouth. You were defensive. Plymouth Station shops are shut because of low passenger use so there will be no crowds like you suggest. So think carefully before you give me short abrupt defensive replies.
It's All about Plymouth!
Thank you

As someone based at Plymouth I also know the area very well. I dont know of any co OP near the station. There is a very small spar shop down the hill and across a very busy road in pennycomequick, I think that is what you refer to, but not a good location and absolutely tiny, not sure if they even do sandwiches.
There is a sainsbury about 10 minute walk from the station that involves a steep hill first, so not much good with luggage, but when even exeter has a Starbucks, smiths and a Costa at the station or within 30nsecs walk, I dont think it is fair to say plymouths surrounding retail offerings are upto it.
Even a place just to get a coffee would be nice, but i guess the station redevelopment will put pay to any Hope's of that.

 

[6Gman]

1.I was referring to Plymouth his station as I know Plymouth there are plenty of places nearby particularly Co op and spa which do Nice Danish etc.
2.if you think boarding a train is challenging because of crowds they would not have time or space for a catering trolley etc. Anyway the point was about his station Plymouth concourse Shops shut during Covid19 you have not completely understood my answer or me at all have you? I were trying to help someone suggest another way as I know plymouth and give him an idea. My reply does not refer to someone who uses another part of the rail network other than Plymouth. You were defensive. Plymouth Station shops are shut because of low passenger use so there will be no crowds like you suggest. So think carefully before you give me short abrupt defensive replies.
It's All about Plymouth!
Thank you

Well, that's me told!

Curiously you mentioned Leeds in your post rather than Plymouth, though you did make up for it by mentioning Plymouth seven times in your response!

The crowds I was mentioning were those waiting to board the train, not those on the train itself. If there are half a dozen people boarding at your door and you've got a suitcase a hot drink really isn't a help. Much better to mooch down to the buffet during the journey.

(Oh, and though it's a few years since I visited Plymouth, I don't recall Co op or Spa (sic) near North Road. Irish_rail seems to agree.)

 

[Butts]

I was lucky to find bargain-priced Advance First Class tickets for Liverpool to Euston last week (undercutting the cheapest standard class fares). It was mid-day and there was a choice of hot snacks (focaccia/ sausage roll), crisps/biscuits and alcoholic drinks as well as tea/coffee. I don't know if the regular offering is any better than this but it was a pleasant surprise. It appears that the cooked breakfast option is also provided at appropriate times; and the shop/buffet was open as well. Congratulations Avanti!

That's good to hear - time the tightwads at LNER followed suit.

Was it "freeflow" ?

 

[gaillark]

Interesting comments so far.

One thing is for certain ... business travellers will NOT be popping into Coop, Spar, Sainsburys and others to buy a sandwich and drink before boarding a train when the fare paid for the journey is close to a monthly mortgage payment.
As Irish Rail /dk1 implied (professional railwaymen) and Others, decent catering offer on-board is still important. For those who advocate get rid of catering I don't think you would be pleased when you experience a lengthy delay or air conditioning fault only to find you can't get a drink because the facility has been removed. Some delays are 2+ hours OR there is a trolley but not in your portion and not being able to access it because of these silly 5 car units or if you find a trolley it hasn't got any stock.
When HST's dominated (very sadly missed) staff operating the buffet had surprisingly large number of queries from customers ranging anything from ticket validities, connections and most importantly being a 'friendly face' of the railway and a meeting hub. The railway is missing a big trick here in not seeing a decent on-board catering provision as a real customer service asset rather than a burden judged by profit/loss. A trolley service on long distance services just doesn't cut the mustard.

For those who remember privatisation of the railway back in 1994 the newly formed train operating companies saw a value in catering especially in first class. GNER increased their full restaurant service available to all ticket holders whilst National Express Midland Main Line were the first company to offer free tea/coffee to all passengers from the buffet. This continued until the end of their franchise. No train company today offers free refreshments to all customers. What a shame. Such a fantastic marketing tool. Prior to this British Rail was not bad as some claim.

Train companies should look at enhancing the customer experience like Midland Main Line did which was highly successful. Avanti West Coast Business Class will be interesting. Perhaps modelled on Chiltern Railways Silver Train service experience before catering was culled by Arriva.

Transport for Wales Premier Service is the standard that the railway should be providing. Comfortable seating, quality food whether restaurant or from buffet counter, good quality rolling stock and helpful staff. This obsession to Airline standards is only accelerating the rot which Virgin began and others followed. The railway is not an airline nor should it be a low budget coach style operation. If you want that there are plenty of coach operators.


I'll just make a brief comment on Advance tickets: Too many being sold and should be restricted to the most lightly loaded trains whereas sensibly priced flexible tickets should be encouraged.

 

[4REP]

Well, that's me told!

Curiously you mentioned Leeds in your post rather than Plymouth, though you did make up for it by mentioning Plymouth seven times in your response!

The crowds I was mentioning were those waiting to board the train, not those on the train itself. If there are half a dozen people boarding at your door and you've got a suitcase a hot drink really isn't a help. Much better to mooch down to the buffet during the journey.As where hot drinks are concerned I pack a flask in a rucksack.

(Oh, and though it's a few years since I visited Plymouth, I don't recall Co op or Spa (sic) near North Road. Irish_rail seems to agree.)

Leeds is my local LNER station as I make regular journeys to Southampton via London KX and also Any GWR destinations. In Leeds Station there is hardly any Compass outlets left so I use sainsbury on the station or around the clock shop in the city centre which do reasonably tasty affordable sandwiches. I've given up relying on on board catering in 1st class so I rely on another source. I used to do the same in Plymouth on a day out from Truro when visiting Cornwall. The spa and Co op provided a small bakery with Danish sausage rolls etc and even sandwiches. Much better and cheaper than buying from railway outlets and not relying on topsy turvy on board catering. At least I knew I had something solid for the journey(mainly Leeds - KX)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2020 ==

Well, that's me told!

Curiously you mentioned Leeds in your post rather than Plymouth, though you did make up for it by mentioning Plymouth seven times in your response!

The crowds I was mentioning were those waiting to board the train, not those on the train itself. If there are half a dozen people boarding at your door and you've got a suitcase a hot drink really isn't a help. Much better to mooch down to the buffet during the journey.

(Oh, and though it's a few years since I visited Plymouth, I don't recall Co op or Spa (sic) near North Road. Irish_rail seems to agree.)

Leeds is my local LNER station as I make regular journeys to Southampton via London KX and also Any GWR destinations. In Leeds Station there is hardly any Compass outlets left so I use sainsbury on the station or around the clock shop in the city centre which do reasonably tasty affordable sandwiches. I've given up relying on on board catering in 1st class so I rely on another source. I used to do the same in Plymouth on a day out from Truro when visiting Cornwall. The spa and Co op provided a small bakery with Danish sausage rolls etc and even sandwiches. Much better and cheaper than buying from railway outlets and not relying on topsy turvy on board catering. At least I knew I had something solid for the journey(mainly Leeds - KX)usually for hot drinks I pack a flask in a rucksack

 

[basfordlad]

had the breakfast option yesterday and returning today to Glasgow, very lightly loaded, breakfast option isnt the full plated version, but porridge, grill in a box, potato hash or bacon, decent effort tbf
i counted about 4 people in first class from glasgow this morning

 

[Robertj21a]

had the breakfast option yesterday and returning today to Glasgow, very lightly loaded, breakfast option isnt the full plated version, but porridge, grill in a box, potato hash or bacon, decent effort tbf
i counted about 4 people in first class from glasgow this morning

Sounds a bit grim to be honest.