England & Wales Tracing App to be released Sept 24th

[Bletchleyite]

Is this it?

Yep. Just stick your home address in and pick "other" for what type of venue it is.

 

[py_megapixel]

Yep. Just stick your home address in and pick "other" for what type of venue it is.

Is that allowed?

Also, why doesn't the app have a "check out" button?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that allowed?

Well, I got a poster. I don't see how they can prevent me having one!

(No, I won't be sharing it! )

Also, why doesn't the app have a "check out" button?

Presumably so people don't just scan in then immediately press it. However, a facility to scan out of where you are would make sense.

 

[birchesgreen]

Done my first check-in today!

I also did something else that someone else suggested to reduce the risk of an incorrect contact trace due to someone who came in hours later. Get a poster for your home address, and scan that when you leave the venue and head home.

I'm also told that (due to a bug in the app) rescanning the code for the place you are in and pressing "cancel checkout" also works to end a checkin.

That's an interesting idea, i was wondering about "checking out".

 

[py_megapixel]

Well, I got a poster. I don't see how they can prevent me having one!

I guess if lots of people started doing it then they could start deactivating codes that referred to residential properties, but that would probably have to be done manually to avoid false positives (i.e. someone actually typing each address into Google Maps (other mapping software is available) and seeing if it's a house)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess if lots of people started doing it then they could start deactivating codes that referred to residential properties, but that would probably have to be done manually to avoid false positives (i.e. someone actually typing each address into Google Maps (other mapping software is available) and seeing if it's a house)

I don't see as it's really an issue so long as you only do it once you've left the venue concerned. I'm not carrying it around, I'm just scanning it when I get home.

 

[The_Train]

Work is probably a big reason.
For some of us who can work from home or who actually work for decent companies, 2 weeks at home isn't that bad.
But if you can't work from home and your employer just relies on SSP - it can be brutal getting your wage slashed for those two weeks.

As an example - my partner works for a large pub chain who we shall not mention the name of. If she has to self isolate, she'll end up with only about half of the pay she would otherwise get. We are lucky that I have been working from home so I'll still be able to continue working in that situation, which will more than pay the bills, but you can imagine if both of us were in similar position of losing money, how one or both of us may not listen to the advice, even if we agree with it and want to follow it.

I know they have added in a small payment for if you do have to self isolate, but you are only eligible for that if you are already in receipt of UC I believe, so it doesn't go far enough at all.

I absolutely see your point (and fully agree with it) and I'm sure you are correct that losing wages (or worse their job) is the biggest concern for the vast majority of people right now.

Based on what you have said here, can I be nosey and ask if you have downloaded the app or intend to do so?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I absolutely see your point (and fully agree with it) and I'm sure you are correct that losing wages (or worse their job) is the biggest concern for the vast majority of people right now.

Based on what you have said here, can I be nosey and ask if you have downloaded the app or intend to do so?

I have, and my partner is going to, and we do intend to follow the advice if we get asked to isolate.
However as I said that is mainly because I am able to work from home and my salary is enough to pay the bills.
I really can't answer what we would do if we weren't in that fortunate position.

 

[thejuggler]

World beating?

https://twitter.com/NHSCOVID19app/status/1309446092057202689

Its about a third of tests that can't be linked to the app.

 

[jfollows]

BBC is reporting that anyone using the app who had previously booked a test (prior to using the app) is unable to report a negative test result and terminate the self-isolation countdown. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54307526

Doesn't exactly look as if the people testing the app properly thought through the test cases.

People who test negative for Covid-19 are unable to share the result with the new NHS app for England and Wales if they did not book the test through the app in the first place.
The app asks for a code to register a test result but a code is only received if the test is positive.
Those who enter that they have symptoms without entering a result find a self-isolation countdown begins.
The Department for Health and Social Care said the app would be updated.
People who have been using the app since its launch on Thursday, and who had already booked tests before downloading it, have found that they are unable to stop the self-isolation countdown after reporting symptoms if they then get a negative result, because it does not come with a code they can share.
"That's so confusing as the app doesn't tell you that can't enter negative test booked outside it," said Prof Deborah Ryan, who originally contacted the BBC.
"And the app still tells you to quarantine if you entered symptoms. So this means I can't turn off the self-isolation alert in the app?"
The self-isolation alert cannot be de-activated in this situation.
In addition, tests taken as a result of the Office for National Statistics surveys, and those taken in an NHS Hospital or Public Health England lab, cannot be shared on the app regardless of the result, according to a tweet from the app's official account.
It is not clear how many test results would be affected by this.
Ifan Evans, health director for digital technology and transformation in Wales, tweeted that Welsh lab test results did come with notification tokens for the app.
The Department of Health said that using the app is "entirely voluntary" and advice to get a test or self-isolate cannot be enforced.
Tests booked via the app will have the results automatically shared with it, it said.
According to the data analyst App Annie the NHS Covid-19 app has been downloaded around 4m times so far.
"By downloading this app you are helping protect yourself and others. If you book your test via the app then the results will be automatically recorded in the app and the isolation countdown will be updated," said a DHSC spokesman.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

Work is probably a big reason.
For some of us who can work from home or who actually work for decent companies, 2 weeks at home isn't that bad.
But if you can't work from home and your employer just relies on SSP - it can be brutal getting your wage slashed for those two weeks.

As an example - my partner works for a large pub chain who we shall not mention the name of. If she has to self isolate, she'll end up with only about half of the pay she would otherwise get. We are lucky that I have been working from home so I'll still be able to continue working in that situation, which will more than pay the bills, but you can imagine if both of us were in similar position of losing money, how one or both of us may not listen to the advice, even if we agree with it and want to follow it.

I know they have added in a small payment for if you do have to self isolate, but you are only eligible for that if you are already in receipt of UC I believe, so it doesn't go far enough at all.

It's worse for the self employed - we are not entitled to SSP at all. A ping from the app or Test and Protect can mean 100% loss of income for 2 weeks plus additional costs if we have to sub someone in to cover planned work at short notice
There are some that simply can't afford that just now and will have to work regardless

 

[Bantamzen]

BBC is reporting that anyone using the app who had previously booked a test (prior to using the app) is unable to report a negative test result and terminate the self-isolation countdown. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54307526

Doesn't exactly look as if the people testing the app properly thought through the test cases.

Clearly people don't realise that they can stop the countdown. Simply delete the app.

 

[Trackman]

Just flashed up on my phone... more woes.

Coronavirus: NHS tracing app problem that left tens of thousands of tests unlogged has been fixed, government says

The issue had appeared to undermine the app, which warns people when they have come into contact with anyone who tests positive.

news.sky.com

Clearly people don't realise that they can stop the countdown. Simply delete the app.

I wonder if the app sends the ID of your phone or something to the servers to stop you doing this.

 

[py_megapixel]

I wonder if the app sends the ID of your phone or something to the servers to stop you doing this.

This section of the privacy policy seems to imply it doesn't:

You can delete the app at any time and/or turn off notifications. If you choose to delete the app, you will not receive any notifications (alerts) from the app about coronavirus (COVID-19) and the data stored by the app on your phone will be deleted. If you decide to install the app again, you will need to provide the requested information again.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just flashed up on my phone... more woes.

Coronavirus: NHS tracing app problem that left tens of thousands of tests unlogged has been fixed, government says

The issue had appeared to undermine the app, which warns people when they have come into contact with anyone who tests positive.

news.sky.com

I wonder if the app sends the ID of your phone or something to the servers to stop you doing this.

It definitely doesn't, the only time the app sends data sends data is when you report a positive covid test.

 

[185143]

I've just been refused eat in service at a fast food takeaway in Manchester as I didn't have the app and have no intentions of downloading it.

Just another way of controlling us and imposing de-facto restrictions to anyone who doesn't blindly obey Herr Johnson's orders as far as I'm concerned.

I opted to take away as I'm on break at work so couldn't venture too far away. I then had to sit(!) And wait for my food to be prepared for 10 minutes.

 

[jfollows]

I've just been refused eat in service at a fast food takeaway in Manchester as I didn't have the app and have no intentions of downloading it.

That sounds stupid.
Enabling the use of the app with a scannable QR code makes sense.
Requiring the use of the app doesn't make sense.

 

[py_megapixel]

I've just been refused eat in service at a fast food takeaway in Manchester as I didn't have the app and have no intentions of downloading it.

Just another way of controlling us and imposing de-facto restrictions to anyone who doesn't blindly obey Herr Johnson's orders as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't be so cynical.
Most likely that particular establishment has simply deemed the business from those without the app is worth less than the administrative costs of dealing with T+T data for themselves.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

I've just been refused eat in service at a fast food takeaway in Manchester as I didn't have the app and have no intentions of downloading it.

Just another way of controlling us and imposing de-facto restrictions to anyone who doesn't blindly obey Herr Johnson's orders as far as I'm concerned.

I opted to take away as I'm on break at work so couldn't venture too far away. I then had to sit(!) And wait for my food to be prepared for 10 minutes.

That is directly against the government guidance on collection of data for T&T in England - "Venues must not make the specific use of the NHS QR code a precondition of entry"

From: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/maintai...rs-and-visitors-to-support-nhs-test-and-trace

Information to collect

Venues must ask every customer and visitor for the following details (unless they have ‘checked in’ using the NHS COVID-19 app):

the name of the customer or visitor. If there is more than one person, then you can record the name of the ‘lead member’ of the group (of up to 6 people) and the number of people in theat group
a contact phone number for each customer or visitor, or for the lead member of a group of people. If a phone number is not available, you should ask for their email address instead, or if neither are available, then postal address
date of visit, arrival time and, where possible, departure time
the name of the assigned staff member, if a customer or visitor will interact with only one member of staff (for example, a hairdresser). This should be recorded alongside the name of the customer or visitor

Recording both arrival and departure times (or estimated departure times) will help reduce the number of customers or staff needing to be contacted by NHS Test and Trace. We recognise, however, that recording departure times will not always be practicable and this is not required by law.

All designated venues must also keep a record of all staff working on the premises on a given day, the time of their shift, and their contact details. This covers anyone providing a service or activity including volunteers.

No additional data should be collected for this purpose.

In England, you do not have to request details from people who check in with the official NHS QR poster, and venues should not ask them to do both. Venues must not make the specific use of the NHS QR code a precondition of entry (as the individual has the right to choose to provide their contact details if they prefer). Should someone choose to check in with the official NHS QR poster, a venue should check their phone screen to ensure they have successfully checked in.

 

[bengley]

That is directly against the government guidance on collection of data for T&T in England - "Venues must not make the specific use of the NHS QR code a precondition of entry"

From: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/maintai...rs-and-visitors-to-support-nhs-test-and-trace

Information to collect

Venues must ask every customer and visitor for the following details (unless they have ‘checked in’ using the NHS COVID-19 app):

the name of the customer or visitor. If there is more than one person, then you can record the name of the ‘lead member’ of the group (of up to 6 people) and the number of people in theat group
a contact phone number for each customer or visitor, or for the lead member of a group of people. If a phone number is not available, you should ask for their email address instead, or if neither are available, then postal address
date of visit, arrival time and, where possible, departure time
the name of the assigned staff member, if a customer or visitor will interact with only one member of staff (for example, a hairdresser). This should be recorded alongside the name of the customer or visitor

Recording both arrival and departure times (or estimated departure times) will help reduce the number of customers or staff needing to be contacted by NHS Test and Trace. We recognise, however, that recording departure times will not always be practicable and this is not required by law.

All designated venues must also keep a record of all staff working on the premises on a given day, the time of their shift, and their contact details. This covers anyone providing a service or activity including volunteers.

No additional data should be collected for this purpose.

In England, you do not have to request details from people who check in with the official NHS QR poster, and venues should not ask them to do both. Venues must not make the specific use of the NHS QR code a precondition of entry (as the individual has the right to choose to provide their contact details if they prefer). Should someone choose to check in with the official NHS QR poster, a venue should check their phone screen to ensure they have successfully checked in.

This is good to know. I might start carrying a printed version of this around with me, with the relevant bits highlighted. Thanks.

 

[py_megapixel]

This is good to know. I might start carrying a printed version of this around with me, with the relevant bits highlighted. Thanks.

Won't help you if - as I suspect is the case - the business in question simply does not have the means to record your details any other way.

 

[DB]

That is directly against the government guidance on collection of data for T&T in England - "Venues must not make the specific use of the NHS QR code a precondition of entry"

From: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/maintai...rs-and-visitors-to-support-nhs-test-and-trace

Information to collect

Venues must ask every customer and visitor for the following details (unless they have ‘checked in’ using the NHS COVID-19 app):

the name of the customer or visitor. If there is more than one person, then you can record the name of the ‘lead member’ of the group (of up to 6 people) and the number of people in theat group
a contact phone number for each customer or visitor, or for the lead member of a group of people. If a phone number is not available, you should ask for their email address instead, or if neither are available, then postal address
date of visit, arrival time and, where possible, departure time
the name of the assigned staff member, if a customer or visitor will interact with only one member of staff (for example, a hairdresser). This should be recorded alongside the name of the customer or visitor

Recording both arrival and departure times (or estimated departure times) will help reduce the number of customers or staff needing to be contacted by NHS Test and Trace. We recognise, however, that recording departure times will not always be practicable and this is not required by law.

All designated venues must also keep a record of all staff working on the premises on a given day, the time of their shift, and their contact details. This covers anyone providing a service or activity including volunteers.

No additional data should be collected for this purpose.

In England, you do not have to request details from people who check in with the official NHS QR poster, and venues should not ask them to do both. Venues must not make the specific use of the NHS QR code a precondition of entry (as the individual has the right to choose to provide their contact details if they prefer). Should someone choose to check in with the official NHS QR poster, a venue should check their phone screen to ensure they have successfully checked in.

No doubt it will be widely ignored, just like the guidance about not asking exempt people for 'proof' is.

I wonder if these businesses have considered the risks of alienating long term customers who may now stop visiting and never return?

 

[py_megapixel]

No doubt it will be widely ignored, just like the guidance about not asking exempt people for 'proof' is.

I wonder if these businesses have considered the risks of alienating long term customers who may now stop visiting and never return?

I for one can say that if I felt that I could not wear a mask for health reasons, and someone asked for "proof" of this, I would ensure the business in question did not have my custom again.

I am, personally, perfectly capable of wearing a mask, and believe that doing so is largely a reasonable measure - but those who can't should not have to be challenged on it.

 

[stevetay3]

Which fast food outlet, so we can all boycott them.

 

[py_megapixel]

Which fast food outlet, so we can all boycott them.

Seems a little disproportinate, don't you think, to boycott an entire fast food chain (we presume) because of one account from a forum user of a bad policy at one location...?

 

[DelayRepay]

I wouldn't be so cynical.
Most likely that particular establishment has simply deemed the business from those without the app is worth less than the administrative costs of dealing with T+T data for themselves.

But the administrative costs amount to nothing more than a few sheets of paper and pens, and a few minutes each day to shred the details from three weeks ago that are no longer required.

They must have had this until Thursday, because it was a requirement and there was no App.

More likely that they have either not read the rules, or management haven't explained the rules to the staff properly.

 

[py_megapixel]

But the administrative costs amount to nothing more than a few sheets of paper and pens, and a few minutes each day to shred the details from three weeks ago that are no longer required.

But they also have the risk that they have to trawl through all the data if asked to by T+T.
With the app, everything is handled automatically.

I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but I can see why they've done it.

 

[DelayRepay]

But they also have the risk that they have to trawl through all the data if asked to by T+T.
I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but I can see why they've done it.

That's not a huge amount of work either, just get the sheet for the day in question and pass it on. Given the venue will probably be temporarily closed while staff wait for test results anyway it's not going to be a big issue.

I prefer my theory that it's just a misunderstanding of the rules by the staff.

 

[MalaiseForever]

In reference to the discussion about how to check out from a venue, you are automatically reset at midnight each night.

 

[DB]

In reference to the discussion about how to check out from a venue, you are automatically reset at midnight each night.

Which is pretty crap if you are only in there for 20 minutes from 8am!