IET's grounded - what would you run?

[HST43257]

Where are the Voyagers coming from? XC not a chance and if you take them from Avanti you screw the WCML too. Are they even cleared for the ECML?

XC existing services with LNER ticket acceptance

 

[Wolfie]

XC existing services with LNER ticket acceptance

That's fine except capacity, particularly with CV restrictions, is likely to be limited.

 

[HST274]

GWR
Turbos on the Cotswold line and remaining IETs on Pad to South Wales. Perhaps it would also make sense (though a LOT of work) to try and match 387 shuttles with other trains so turbos on the other lines could terminated at Didcot/Reading.
Robert

 

[D365]

Let me ask you this question, would you like an airline pilot to fly a plane that you are travelling on when he has not flown that plane in a year and has not looked at any manual on the plane that you flying on in that time? I am guessing that the answer is no. Well, it is much the same for train drivers. Most of the LNER drivers would not have driven a class 43 in over a year. Most people's memory of things that they have done in the last month or how to be using things that they have not used in six months in my experience is usually pretty poor in being able to operate something appropriate.

You are responding to a post that is clearly a joke.

 

[peperami97]

Let me ask you this question, would you like an airline pilot to fly a plane that you are travelling on when he has not flown that plane in a year and has not looked at any manual on the plane that you flying on in that time? I am guessing that the answer is no. Well, it is much the same for train drivers. Most of the LNER drivers would not have driven a class 43 in over a year. Most people's memory of things that they have done in the last month or how to be using things that they have not used in six months in my experience is usually pretty poor in being able to operate something appropriate.

I may surprise you, I would take the view that if the pilot felt able and safe, I would accept his professional judgement.

In terms of driving a train, they would almost certainly have driven a train in that time. They would almost certainly have passed over the line driving the current stock they signed for. Now trains I have no doubt have different performance characteristics and probably different controls. However I would have thought that its like getting in a new car, the fundamental principles of driving are the same. They may have to go a bit slower to ensure stopping distances and to allow themselves to familiarise themselves with the controls. However where a train driver to tell me they didnt feel safe or able I would accept that. As the nearest thing to driving a train I have done is a days driving expierence on a steam train and a bit of simulator time.

You are responding to a post that is clearly a joke.

D365 he wasnt, i am completely serious. I wanted to understand why not and have a professional history of not just accepting because it says so as a reason why something cant be done without understanding and gaining knowledge about why.

 

[C37]

Let me ask you this question, would you like an airline pilot to fly a plane that you are travelling on when he has not flown that plane in a year and has not looked at any manual on the plane that you flying on in that time? I am guessing that the answer is no. Well, it is much the same for train drivers. Most of the LNER drivers would not have driven a class 43 in over a year. Most people's memory of things that they have done in the last month or how to be using things that they have not used in six months in my experience is usually pretty poor in being able to operate something appropriate.

Possibly not a plane.
I can't drive a train, but I can drive a car, whether its a diesel, petrol, electric, estate, saloon or van, manual or automatic, I could jump in any vehicle and drive it.
And I could drive the vehicle on routes that I have never even been on before.
And if for some reason I didn't drive for a year I would be confident that I would still remember where the accellerator, brakes and steering wheel are.
People's memories aren't that bad!

 

[Wolfie]

You are responding to a post that is clearly a joke.

You would certainly hope so. If not it shows precious little respect to train drivers, their professional skills and ability.

 

[peperami97]

Not really. If it is reasonable to say tell people of reduced mobility that they can't travel, it is reasonable to say tell people of able mobility that they can't travel as well. You can't legitimately suspend the PRM requirements.

I dont suggest telling them not to travel, however for a period of time it will be more difficult than currently due to older stock. I have plenty of friends who have traveled by train for a long time before these improvements where introduced. They have been brought in for very good reason but you have to be pragmatic about it and provide the best service for the most number of people.

 

[RobShipway]

I may surprise you, I would take the view that if the pilot felt able and safe, I would accept his professional judgement.

In terms of driving a train, they would almost certainly have driven a train in that time. They would almost certainly have passed over the line driving the current stock they signed for. Now trains I have no doubt have different performance characteristics and probably different controls. However I would have thought that its like getting in a new car, the fundamental principles of driving are the same. They may have to go a bit slower to ensure stopping distances and to allow themselves to familiarise themselves with the controls. However where a train driver to tell me they didnt feel safe or able I would accept that. As the nearest thing to driving a train I have done is a days driving expierence on a steam train and a bit of simulator time.


D365 he wasnt, i am completely serious. I wanted to understand why not and have a professional history of not just accepting because it says so as a reason why something cant be done without understanding and gaining knowledge about why.

Well, I know that airline pilots have to take examinations and fly in a simulator every year within being certified before flying a plane that contains passengers. The same is with train drivers I believe, from documentaries on the likes of First Great Western and forerunners to LNER on the East Coast route.

 

[C37]

You would certainly hope so. If not it shows precious little respect to train drivers, their professional skills and ability.

On the contrary, there are people here that are suggesting that driver's have such little memory capacity that a year after last having driven a HST they would have forgotten how to do so. Just not buying that.

 

[RobShipway]

Possibly not a plane.
I can't drive a train, but I can drive a car, whether its a diesel, petrol, electric, estate, saloon or van, manual or automatic, I could jump in any vehicle and drive it.
And I could drive the vehicle on routes that I have never even been on before.
And if for some reason I didn't drive for a year I would be confident that I would still remember where the accellerator, brakes and steering wheel are.
People's memories aren't that bad!

Driving a car is just putting your life at risk, driving a train or flying a plane is putting hundreds of people's lives at risk, hence the need for certification on a yearly basis.

 

[Puppetfinger]

Any likelihood of GWR using the Sleeper sets to make a day round trip from London to the SW and back to give some extra capacity?

 

[JonathanH]

Any likelihood of GWR using the Sleeper sets to make a day round trip from London to the SW and back to give some extra capacity?

No, there isn't. There are alternative services already available for the majority of the route and the number of seated coaches is very small.

 

[LowLevel]

Any likelihood of GWR using the Sleeper sets to make a day round trip from London to the SW and back to give some extra capacity?

I'd say not - the safety case for the slam doors probably makes the number of staff required prohibitive.

 

[Clansman]

On the contrary, there are people here that are suggesting that driver's have such little memory capacity that a year after last having driven a HST they would have forgotten how to do so. Just not buying that.

So you believe that any driver who last drove a HST in December 2019, should be told in May 2021 to just jump in the cab and operate a passenger service at the first available oppertunity?

 

[AdamWW]

No, there isn't. There are alternative services already available for the majority of the route and the number of seated coaches is very small.

I'm sure you could get several people sitting on the bed at least in the single berth compartments...

 

[C37]

So you believe that any driver who last drove a HST in December 2019, should be told in May 2021 to just jump in the cab and operate a passenger service at the first available oppertunity?

Yes, why not?

 

[popeter45]

Yes, why not?

that may be okay for personal cars but even in the lorry and bus industry such a period of non-use would require retraining/refreshing, the risk of somebody forgetting an old quirk or two brings risk that no insurer or regulator would accept

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, why not?

Well, apart from the fact that it's against all of the rules, who would be legally liable in the event of an incident arising as a result? If any such proposal arose, which it wouldn't as the TOCs would know that they'd be crucified and insurers wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole, ASLEF would doubtless take action due to non-compliance with the Health & Safety at Work Act.

 

[Energy]

Don't the Mid Norfolk Railway have the ex-GA mk3s? Could you use them with hired in 57s and crew trained on the Night Riviera?

 

[adc82140]

Is there any reason why some charter stock, with crew, couldn't be hired in? For example the Blue Pullman, or other rakes from LSL and the like?

 

[popeter45]

Don't Locomotive Services Limited have the ex-GA mk3s? Could you use them with hired in 57s and crew trained on the Night Riviera?

the DVT's wont work with 57's so would need to organise run-arounds all over the place

 

[Energy]

the DVT's wont work with 57's so would need to organise run-arounds all over the place

Could you use 2 57s? One at the front and one at the back?

 

[popeter45]

Could you use 2 57s? One at the front and one at the back?

GWR only have 4 so that would limit you to 2 sets and thats assuming non are out for matinence/breakdown or for night rivera duty

 

[Energy]

GWR only have 4 so that would limit you to 2 sets and thats assuming non are out for matinence/breakdown or for night rivera duty

They have hired in DRS 57s in the past.

 

[CBlue]

Class 88 hauling some 442s?

 

[popeter45]

They have hired in DRS 57s in the past.

DRS only have 8 of the kind with the required ETH and i dont think they would just hire out all 8 at such short notice, 1-2 maybe but not all 8

 

[RobShipway]

Is there any reason why some charter stock, with crew, couldn't be hired in? For example the Blue Pullman, or other rakes from LSL and the like?

GWR crews that know the route, would need re - training on class 43 units to drive the Blue Pullman as many of the drivers have not driven class 43 power cars in years. That would longer than it would take to fix the class 8xxx units.

Class 88 hauling some 442s?

Who would be driving the class 88's? Donald Duck? Besides haven't the class 442's been scrapped?

 

[CBlue]

Yes, why not?

Not something unique to the railway industry, or any other heavily regulated industry for that matter. I've spent several years now working in the medical device industry - throwing in someone who hadn't touched process-critical equipment in over a year never happened unless they recieved refresher training or were monitored. If they made a mistake due to poor recollection and passed out a batch of faulty product - we could have run the risk of killing hundreds of people.

It's exactly the same reason the railways operate as they do.

Who would be driving the class 88's? Donald Duck?

Lord Lucan!

 

[RobShipway]

Not something unique to the railway industry, or any other heavily regulated industry for that matter. I've spent several years now working in the medical device industry - throwing in someone who hadn't touched process-critical equipment in over a year never happened unless they recieved refresher training or were monitored. If they made a mistake due to poor recollection and passed out a batch of faulty product - we could have run the risk of killing hundreds of people.

It's exactly the same reason the railways operate as they do.


Lord Lucan!