SWR Class 458 to be retained

[adc82140]

I'm not sure where this idea of there being a "GBR" livery has come from. SWR is one of the brands (like LNER) that is intended to be non operator specific.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm not sure where this idea of there being a "GBR" livery has come from. SWR is one of the brands (like LNER) that is intended to be non operator specific.

Indeed it was - but firstly, it doesn't have the best reputation so I could see why they would want to rebrand it, and secondly I'm sure new branding which incorporates the double-arrow symbol was mentioned.

I did read somewhere that they were to receive the swr mainline livery, however that was before the gbr announcement.

The establishment of GBR is long enough away that TOCs won't be stopping applying liveries. In any case I don't believe that the plan is to terminate any of the existing agreements early; they'll just be gradually absorbed as and when they run out.

 

[Roger B]

Indeed it was - but firstly, it doesn't have the best reputation so I could see why they would want to rebrand it, and secondly I'm sure new branding which incorporates the double-arrow symbol was mentioned.


The establishment of GBR is long enough away that TOCs won't be stopping applying liveries. In any case I don't believe that the plan is to terminate any of the existing agreements early; they'll just be gradually absorbed as and when they run out.

Be so good to have the BR double-arrow back. So iconic and easily recognisable. Was a masterstroke / masterpiece in its day - and will be again.

 

[spark001uk]

Be so good to have the BR double-arrow back. So iconic and easily recognisable. Was a masterstroke / masterpiece in its day - and will be again.

They said they were modernising it didn't they, let's hope they don't mess it up too much!

 

[nlogax]

They said they were modernising it didn't they, let's hope they don't mess it up too much!

Same here. Not being in the rail industry I don't really have too many opinions about the substance in the reports however the return to double arrows is definitely a plus. Looking forward to it!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Indeed it was - but firstly, it doesn't have the best reputation so I could see why they would want to rebrand it, and secondly I'm sure new branding which incorporates the double-arrow symbol was mentioned.

BR although a well known brand didn’t exactly have a good reputation either!

 

[spark001uk]

It was very different times back then. Anyway that's for another thread.
I'm actually surprisingly looking forward to these conversions, I don't think I've ever done a ton in one. Not that the PDL has much of it.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm not sure where this idea of there being a "GBR" livery has come from. SWR is one of the brands (like LNER) that is intended to be non operator specific.

The government document stated that the current multitude of brands will be replaced by a national one, with regional variations where relevant.

What you're thinking of was under the now-defunct franchising regime where it was intended that brands would transfer to new franchisees. That's now dead.

Anyway, back on topic, given that there's a new two year SWR contract starting on Monday then of course the 458s will receive SWR livery. I can't think of what else they'd be painted in.

 

[Bigfoot]

It was very different times back then. Anyway that's for another thread.
I'm actually surprisingly looking forward to these conversions, I don't think I've ever done a ton in one. Not that the PDL has much of it.

Much of it? Haha

 

[spark001uk]

Much of it? Haha

I think the only bit is from woking to just before Byfleet & New Haw isn't it? (On up fast)

 

[43096]

The government document stated that the current multitude of brands will be replaced by a national one, with regional variations where relevant.

What you're thinking of was under the now-defunct franchising regime where it was intended that brands would transfer to new franchisees. That's now dead.

Anyway, back on topic, given that there's a new two year SWR contract starting on Monday then of course the 458s will receive SWR livery. I can't think of what else they'd be painted in.

You’re getting confused between the franchise agreements (which remain in place even under GBR) and branding. As DfT is in control it can mandate branding to any of the existing franchises. Very much a case of wait and see for what the 458s emerge in.

 

[adc82140]

SWR livery is about as neutral as it gets. Replace the SWR spidery logo thing with BR double arrows, job done.

 

[swt_passenger]

SWR livery is about as neutral as it gets. Replace the SWR spidery logo thing with BR double arrows, job done.

When it was new it did make you wonder, paint from car boot sale near Portsmouth dockyard…

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The traction package is good. It is the Alstom Onyx kit as fitted to pendolino's, LU Northern line and others. Most of the other kit is pretty good also.

Onix is also fitted to Bombardiers voyager and meridian units.

 

[swt_passenger]

The traction package is good. It is the Alstom Onyx kit as fitted to pendolino's, LU Northern line and others. Most of the other kit is pretty good also. What is not good is the Washwood Heath assembly quality, which is as about as bad as it gets. The other Juniper/Coradia fleets suffered the same issues.

Yet why is it I always feel that for interior quality, in comparison to 450s, they just seem an older generation…

 

[spark001uk]

Yet why is it I always feel that for interior quality, in comparison to 450s, they just seem an older generation…

As long as it's a reasonably comfy seating layout, and they sort those disgusting windows (and toilets) out, I think they'll be bearable.

 

[nw1]

From an enthusiast point of view, it will give interesting variety on main-line services.

Plus, as I think others have said, if they are refurbished to 444 standard, it'll give an option of a 12-car formation with express stock, something we haven't seen since 2004 when the CIGs were last running.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From an enthusiast point of view, it will give interesting variety on main-line services.

Plus, as I think others have said, if they are refurbished to 444 standard, it'll give an option of a 12-car formation with express stock, something we haven't seen since 2004 when the CIGs were last running.

To be fair 10x23m is only 10m shorter than 12x20m.

 

[40129]

The government document stated that the current multitude of brands will be replaced by a national one, with regional variations where relevant.

What you're thinking of was under the now-defunct franchising regime where it was intended that brands would transfer to new franchisees. That's now dead.

Anyway, back on topic, given that there's a new two year SWR contract starting on Monday then of course the 458s will receive SWR livery. I can't think of what else they'd be painted in.

Wonder what they'd look like in blue/grey?

(I'll get my coat)

 

[DennisM]

They said they were modernising it didn't they, let's hope they don't mess it up too much!

Maybe they will commission David Hockney to work his magic again as he did with the underground roundel

 

[D6130]

Not that the PDL has much of it.

True....but it does have 90 in both directions between Woking and Guildford and - on the Down line only - between Haslemere and Petersfield and between Ditcham substation and Rowlands Castle.

 

[DelW]

From an enthusiast point of view, it will give interesting variety on main-line services.

Plus, as I think others have said, if they are refurbished to 444 standard, it'll give an option of a 12-car formation with express stock, something we haven't seen since 2004 when the CIGs were last running.

Well they won't match the 444s (or even the 442s) for passenger comfort, since they have doors opening directly into the saloons. That means noisier, draughtier, and at each station, a cold wind entering in the winter and a hot wind entering in the summer.

Unfortunately installing 2+2 seating in a suburban unit, while a welcome improvement on the 3+2 450s, doesn't turn them into proper main line stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well they won't match the 444s (or even the 442s) for passenger comfort, since they have doors opening directly into the saloons. That means noisier, draughtier, and at each station, a cold wind entering in the winter and a hot wind entering in the summer.

Unfortunately installing 2+2 seating in a suburban unit, while a welcome improvement on the 3+2 450s, doesn't turn them into proper main line stock.

Portsmouth is a long distance commuter-type service like the LNR semifast Brums or the Crewe, or the Southern Brightons, and is perfectly suited to 2+2-seated commuter style stock like 350/1s, which this is basically recreating.

It is not a long distance InterCity-style service. SWR only has two of those - Salisbury and Weymouth.

If SWR had some 2+2-seated 450s this wouldn't even be in discussion.

 

[spark001uk]

True....but it does have 90 in both directions between Woking and Guildford and - on the Down line only - between Haslemere and Petersfield and between Ditcham substation and Rowlands Castle.

In fact... what speed have the 458s reached in regular service, either in /0 or /5 form.?

 

[Flange Squeal]

In fact... what speed have the 458s reached in regular service, either in /0 or /5 form.?

As /0s, I’d guess their early days when they ran to Alton they would’ve been able to regularly reach 80-90 on the main east of Woking (particularly when put on the fast as non-stop between Woking and Surbiton then from memory, pre-2004 timetable shake up). Not sure how often they worked to Basingstoke?

As /5s, with their ‘Windsor side’ stomping ground being 70mph max, their stint booked on the 2153 Alton for a while might be their most regular 75mph jaunt in passenger service?

 

[DelW]

Portsmouth is a long distance commuter-type service like the LNR semifast Brums or the Crewe, or the Southern Brightons, and is perfectly suited to 2+2-seated commuter style stock like 350/1s, which this is basically recreating.

It is not a long distance InterCity-style service. SWR only has two of those - Salisbury and Weymouth.

If SWR had some 2+2-seated 450s this wouldn't even be in discussion.

Portsmouth is only 8 miles closer to Waterloo than Salisbury is, and has a population five times larger, as well as acting as a railhead for Gosport and the eastern Isle of Wight. So I can't work out how you see Salisbury as intercity but not Portsmouth. As for the comparison with LNR local services, Portsmouth doesn't have fast Pendolinos as an alternative.

I object to your constant assertions that suburban commuter stock is good enough for the Direct when you live nowhere near it, but rather on a line that has proper long distance trains available. Would you be happy if someone from elsewhere in the country continually promoted Avanti services being withdrawn from Milton Keynes on the basis that LNR 350s were good enough for its residents?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Portsmouth is only 8 miles closer to Waterloo than Salisbury is, and has a population five times larger, as well as acting as a railhead for Gosport and the eastern Isle of Wight. So I can't work out how you see Salisbury as intercity but not Portsmouth. As for the comparison with LNR local services, Portsmouth doesn't have fast Pendolinos as an alternative.

Perhaps I should have said Exeter. But the patterns are different - they don't carry as many people on shorter journeys.

It's referred to as the "Pompey Direct" which implies it's some sort of non-stop IC service, but it's not, it's a regional express.

I object to your constant assertions that suburban commuter stock is good enough for the Direct when you live nowhere near it, but rather on a line that has proper long distance trains available. Would you be happy if someone from elsewhere in the country continually promoted Avanti services being withdrawn from Milton Keynes on the basis that LNR 350s were good enough for its residents?

390s serve Milton Keynes because they originate from London, and if London were not there they could not be justified (I've said the same on the last thread that was whining about it being unfair that Northampton doesn't have Pendolino services). Their primary purpose is to carry long distance passengers. Post-HS2 it is indeed my view that a more integrated regional type service operated using doors-at-thirds 110mph EMUs is likely to be preferable.

SWR is not really any different from Southern, and Southern does fine with a uniform-ish fleet of doors-at-thirds 20m EMUs.

Sure, 444s are nice, but 350/1s would do the job just as well.

 

[DelW]

Perhaps I should have said Exeter. But the patterns are different - they don't carry as many people on shorter journeys.

Of course, Exeter also has lots of fast services using main line stock, albeit via a different route...

It's referred to as the "Pompey Direct" which implies it's some sort of non-stop IC service, but it's not, it's a regional express.

Well, at least that's a step up from being a long distance commuter service.

My point was really that Portsmouth isn't a small town that happens to be at the end of a commuter route, like say Uckfield is, but is a significant trip generator in its own right. In normal times the Direct has plenty of end to end traffic all day long, so is much more than a commuter line. ("Direct" is of course an historic name, the LSWR having served Portsmouth only via Eastleigh before it was built).

I'll accept regional express as a fair description, though.

Sure, 444s are nice, but 350/1s would do the job just as well.

Except that we're actually getting 458s, a second rebuild of a not very successful, poorly built, cheap as chips, 20 year old suburban fleet. Which means they are likely to be noisier, draughtier, and less well insulated from the weather than 444s; which is where I came in ...

 

[43096]

Except that we're actually getting 458s, a second rebuild of a not very successful, poorly built, cheap as chips, 20 year old suburban fleet. Which means they are likely to be noisier, draughtier, and less well insulated from the weather than 444s; which is where I came in ...

I’ll do you a deal, then. The Pompey line whingers can have our 701s (2+2 seating, 100mph - that’s what you want, right?) and us Reading line punters can keep the 458s.

 

[spark001uk]

I’ll do you a deal, then. The Pompey line whingers can have our 701s (2+2 seating, 100mph - that’s what you want, right?) and us Reading line punters can keep the 458s.

Idea of 458s on PDL being that they could run 12 car. But then again some of them moan about a 12.450 and want all 10.444s instead. Can't win!