SWR Class 458 to be retained

[swt_passenger]

Although that said, putting 444s on the Poole stoppers (xx39) and Portsmouth via Eastleigh (xx09), is perhaps a bit of a waste as they cannot be considered 'express' services. I always wondered why in recent years there were many cases of 450s on Portsmouth Direct '81' fasts with 444s on the Poole/Portsmouth via Eastleigh services when the opposite would mean that express units were used on express services. Certainly in the later days of slammers and 442s (early SWT era), the Portsmouth fasts were always 442s or CIGs while the Portsmouth via Eastleigh was as often as not VEP.

Perhaps 10.444 would not provide the required capacity on Portsmouth peak fast services so a small number of them have to be 450?

Exactly that, and it has always been well documented.The seating capacity alone of a 12.450 is higher than a 10.444, which is higher than an 8.450, then it’s 5.444, then 4.450. There have been numerous cases of transfers of stock types route to route, leading (for example) to 10.444s on Altons. The allocation since 2007 has had very little connection to people’s perceptions of route types as express or otherwise, it’s all about total seat numbers.

 

[janahan]

No, one of the main reasons the aircon fails is that it's not fit for purpose. 350s and 450s operate in those conditions with roof-mounted aircon units and the aircon is highly reliable, and it's generally OK on Turbostars and Electrostars too.

I am not sure if this is entirely true. I remember hearing from a friend who knew someone working in SWT management back int he day (2000 etc).

When the 458s (and the 460s) were orginially specced By SWT, they were designed as Long Distance EMUs of the 442 type (hence why they came in white colours, not suburban blue). They were speced to run mainly on fast lines with relatively infrequent stops. Also and most importantly it was designed to work WITH the Electricity current limitations of the time. As such the A/C units were probably a compromise design for low power requiements that relied on the non stop nature of the services they were designed for. the 450s and 444s required a SINIFICANT current uprate for them to work. Its the same thing with the 460s, they were non stop trains that ran between two points.

Neither were designed for the intensive suburban/metro style service they are employed in now, and things are likely to show up.

One of the main reason the aircon fails is the frequency of the stops and frequency of the doors opening and closing on suburban services, coupled with low speeds between stations not giving the airflow to move the heat from the roof.

Indeed.

Living in Feltham for the last 10 years, I rarely seen any issues with the 458 A/C prior to their rebuild. I only saw the issues starting when they were used on slower stopping services, after their rebuild. So maybe when they are reverted back to their semi fast/fasts on the PDL, they may be a lot more reliable.

 

[swt_passenger]

I am not sure if this is entirely true. I remember hearing from a friend who knew someone working in SWT management back int he day (2000 etc).

When the 458s (and the 460s) were orginially specced By SWT, they were designed as Long Distance EMUs of the 442 type (hence why they came in white colours, not suburban blue). They were speced to run mainly on fast lines with relatively infrequent stops. Also and most importantly it was designed to work WITH the Electricity current limitations of the time. As such the A/C units were probably a compromise design for low power requiements that relied on the non stop nature of the services they were designed for. the 450s and 444s required a SINIFICANT current uprate for them to work. Its the same thing with the 460s, they were non stop trains that ran between two points.

Neither were designed for the intensive suburban/metro style service they are employed in now, and things are likely to show up.

I always understood the 458s came in the white scheme purely because SWT were yet to decide on the blue and red liveries, it had nothing to do with their intended role. Using the presence of the white colour scheme to justify them being used wrongly is just not true.

 

[43096]

I always understood the 458s came in the white scheme purely because SWT were yet to decide on the blue and red liveries, it had nothing to do with their intended role. Using the presence of the white colour scheme to justify them being used wrongly is just not true.

Agreed. That’s what I understood, too.

Further, with 2+3 seats they were not intended as long distance units. They were outer suburban VEP replacement type, aimed at Waterloo-Alton/Basingstoke/Reading type services.

 

[Goldfish62]

I always understood the 458s came in the white scheme purely because SWT were yet to decide on the blue and red liveries, it had nothing to do with their intended role. Using the presence of the white colour scheme to justify them being used wrongly is just not true.

I agree. The artists impression when the trains were ordered showed a unit in the original Stagecoach stripes livery (and also a much more stylish front end design).

 

[spark001uk]

So once the swt stagecoach stripes livery faded away, how did the third livery come about? I always thought there were 2 initially, ie red for suburban and blue/white long distance. And then there was the all blue of the 450s - and later the 458/5, I assume to denote medium distance / outer suburban?

 

[janahan]

I always understood the 458s came in the white scheme purely because SWT were yet to decide on the blue and red liveries, it had nothing to do with their intended role. Using the presence of the white colour scheme to justify them being used wrongly is just not true.

Apologies, I interpreted the colours from information on the "458 history" page of the Southern railway group web site (still on line). However, quite a few different sources (including above mentioned site) stated the intended use case to be either outer suburban or mainline. It appears they were not intended for metro/stopping (despite having 3+2 seating), again, possibiliy giving credence to what my "friend" said regarding that the A/C units of the class were a bit of a compromise in other to fit with the lower Current requirements, required a more faster/less stopping service than the typical metro suburban.

Wonder if there is any current tech/engineers who might be able to confirm this?

 

[Goldfish62]

Apologies, I interpreted the colours from information on the "458 history" page of the Southern railway group web site (still on line). However, quite a few different sources (including above mentioned site) stated the intended use case to be either outer suburban or mainline. It appears they were not intended for metro/stopping (despite having 3+2 seating), again, possibiliy giving credence to what my "friend" said regarding that the A/C units of the class were a bit of a compromise in other to fit with the lower Current requirements, required a more faster/less stopping service than the typical metro suburban.

Wonder if there is any current tech/engineers who might be able to confirm this?

When they were ordered all media reports stated that they were intended for the Reading line, ie outer suburban.

 

[LUYMun]

As an occasional traveller on the 458s, when these units are converted to long-distance running, I sometimes think that these become 'the Pacers of the South' because the ones I travel on give a squeaky and bouncy ride.

 

[southern442]

Whilst some of this may have been tongue in cheek, the main thing about having 2+2 seating is the intercity style layout and comfort. So suggestions that PDL passengers can have 701s etc is sort of missing the point.

As far as end doors go, I really think that people get too hung up on this. Being a frequent traveler from Hampshire to London I often travel by Southern for price reasons, and I'll usually get a seat in the 2+2 area, and I find this to be a perfectly acceptable ambience. It's not bare minimum or just satisfactory, it's actually very nice, and I'd happily do London to Edinburgh on a 2+2 377 as well. The lack of end doors does make it feel slightly less like an intercity service, but not by much, and indeed the large windows and very soft lighting even make them feel more quality than some longer distance units.

And if people really hate the idea of a totally open layout, then why not have partition doors at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing? A similar thing is managed on the 745s with success, so I don't see why the end doors are really needed at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst some of this may have been tongue in cheek, the main thing about having 2+2 seating is the intercity style layout and comfort. So suggestions that PDL passengers can have 701s etc is sort of missing the point.

As far as end doors go, I really think that people get too hung up on this. Being a frequent traveler from Hampshire to London I often travel by Southern for price reasons, and I'll usually get a seat in the 2+2 area, and I find this to be a perfectly acceptable ambience. It's not bare minimum or just satisfactory, it's actually very nice, and I'd happily do London to Edinburgh on a 2+2 377 as well. The lack of end doors does make it feel slightly less like an intercity service, but not by much, and indeed the large windows and very soft lighting even make them feel more quality than some longer distance units.

And if people really hate the idea of a totally open layout, then why not have partition doors at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing? A similar thing is managed on the 745s with success, so I don't see why the end doors are really needed at all.

There are upsides to three short saloons - more private, less noise for two - some of the advantages of classic compartment stock without the personal safety issue those posed. I agree that partition doors might help but I don't see the massive issues that others do with open doors at thirds arrangements provided the doors have automatic closing on a timer. I'd be perfectly happy with wide doors at thirds on long 24m vehicles for everything, to be honest. Indeed, I find (as an example) that the ScotRail Class 380s have a curiously InterCity feel about them, and using another similar example the only real faults with 185s as a long distance unit are that they are 2 vehicles too short and have a slightly silly layout with regard to the position of 1st.

So to me how suitable these are depends on how decent a refurb it is, really, and if they fix major faults like leaky windows and aircon failures.

As for 444s, great though they are, not all the doors are at the ends!

 

[Wolfie]

As someone who also lives in Portsmouth...

450s are okay, but are quite uncomfortable on anything over an hour. 444s are lovely. 458s are not ideal, even if they can make them as nice internally as 444s, however what should have happened in my opinion is the following.

350/2s converted to 2+2 DC units with the desk rebuilt to match existing desiros. I understand that the lease cost is why this didn’t happen, as the rebuild cost would probably be equal to or cheaper than the 458 conversion project.

if you want a ton on a 458 you’ll have to get one of the early services from Southampton or the 2105 Poole service basing it exactly on the 442 diagrams.

You do realise l assume that 350/2s are pretty much identical to 450s?

 

[pompeyfan]

You do realise l assume that 350/2s are pretty much identical to 450s?

i do indeed but the intention would be to convert the 350/2s to 2+2 seating. I’m sorry I didn’t make this clear.

 

[Wolfie]

i do indeed but the intention would be to convert the 350/2s to 2+2 seating. I’m sorry I didn’t make this clear.

Perhaps l wasn't clear myself either. 350/1s are somewhat more comfortable than 350/2s but still use the same seat type albeit with slightly greater seat spacing and seat arms. I would amazed if any conversion didn't look basically like a 350/1. An obvious question, l would suggest, is why the extant 450s couldn't be modified in the way that you advocate.

 

[southern442]

i do indeed but the intention would be to convert the 350/2s to 2+2 seating. I’m sorry I didn’t make this clear.

Out of interest what's the reason why you think converted 350s would be better than converted 458s? Is it just a case of preferring the desiros personally?

 

[Wolfie]

Out of interest what's the reason why you think converted 350s would be better than converted 458s? Is it just a case of preferring the desiros personally?

One benefit l guess is that SWR would have a more consistent fleet

 

[Journeyman]

One benefit l guess is that SWR would have a more consistent fleet

But they already have the 458s, and staff that know how to maintain them. The 450s are maintained under contract to Siemens, and there's no spare capacity to take on more units that way. The 350s would also need DC modifications, which obviously the 458s don't.

An obvious question, l would suggest, is why the extant 450s couldn't be modified in the way that you advocate.

Because you'd need separate 2+2 and 3+2 units and diagrams, which is potentially complicated. Easier to have a specific captive fleet for the Portsmouth services.

 

[spark001uk]

... The 350s would also need DC modifications, which obviously the 458s don't...

Also as was said upthread, the DC wiring in them has been significantly butchered.

 

[Journeyman]

Also as was said upthread, the DC wiring in them has been significantly butchered.

The ones becoming available have never been dual voltage units.

 

[Nym]

It's really not that hard to shove some cables in if the will to lease something is there.

 

[southern442]

It's really not that hard to shove some cables in if the will to lease something is there.

Forgive me if I am wrong but I feel as though the practicality of this hasn't actually been discussed. Some are basing their suggestions on the assumption that re-wiring a unit to DC is very easy and not much could go wrong. Others are basing their ideas on the exact opposite, assuming it could go just as badly as the 442 conversion. I'm very confused as to where the truth about converting a unit to DC operation actually lies...

 

[Journeyman]

Forgive me if I am wrong but I feel as though the practicality of this hasn't actually been discussed. Some are basing their suggestions on the assumption that re-wiring a unit to DC is very easy and not much could go wrong. Others are basing their ideas on the exact opposite, assuming it could go just as badly as the 442 conversion. I'm very confused as to where the truth about converting a unit to DC operation actually lies...

Why is there still an obsession with leasing 350s, which SWR obviously aren't going to do?

 

[D365]

Why is there still an obsession with leasing 350s, which SWR obviously aren't going to do?

Some on the forums always think they have a better answer to non-existent problems!

 

[Bigfoot]

Some on the forums always think they have a better answer to non-existent problems!

No different to the obsession to keep 442s in traffic at whatever cost.

 

[Wolfie]

Forgive me if I am wrong but I feel as though the practicality of this hasn't actually been discussed. Some are basing their suggestions on the assumption that re-wiring a unit to DC is very easy and not much could go wrong. Others are basing their ideas on the exact opposite, assuming it could go just as badly as the 442 conversion. I'm very confused as to where the truth about converting a unit to DC operation actually lies...

I thought that most (believe the 460s were an exception) modern stock was built to facilitate this. Of course, capability and actually implementing it are two different things.

 

[Journeyman]

No different to the obsession to keep 442s in traffic at whatever cost.

Absolutely. SWR's commitment was to bring back 2+2 seating, not pander to enthusiasts who love 442s. They chose 442s initially because they seemed like an easy solution, but there’s been a lot of water under the bridge since then.

 

[Nym]

Forgive me if I am wrong but I feel as though the practicality of this hasn't actually been discussed. Some are basing their suggestions on the assumption that re-wiring a unit to DC is very easy and not much could go wrong. Others are basing their ideas on the exact opposite, assuming it could go just as badly as the 442 conversion. I'm very confused as to where the truth about converting a unit to DC operation actually lies...

The way the power systems of a Class 350 work makes it "relatively" simple to do if the motivation is there. Perticularly if combined with other major reworks that Porterbrook may or may not have in mind.

 

[Journeyman]

The way the power systems of a Class 350 work makes it "relatively" simple to do if the motivation is there. Perticularly if combined with other major reworks that Porterbrook may or may not have in mind.

But the motivation isn't there, because keeping the 458s is easier.

 

[Bigfoot]

But the motivation isn't there, because keeping the 458s is easier.

I hope the 458s get a good cab interior refresh/repair. Some are in a terrible state.

 

[southern442]

But the motivation isn't there, because keeping the 458s is easier.

Of course, it's just that one of my main arguments against 350/2s would be that it could potentially be a massive cock-up when they have perfectly (sort of) good 458s lying around, but recently I wondered if that was actually the case. Anyways I don't see any possible advantages of using them over 458s except for a uniformly desiro fleet but even then they'd have to be kept separate.