Passengers denied boarding at Blackpool North?

[Starmill]

Also, the traincrew are between a rock and a hard place. Arguably, "on the day" their job is to run their train safely and on time. It's not their job (if going "by the book") to query why there aren't passengers on the platform.

The correct channels would be to escalate the incident via management (though cold comfort to those unable to board)

Indeed. Certainly to me it would be unthinkable to actually begin an argument with another member of staff while at work.

The issue is that it has been escalated but without that necessarily producing any long term changes.

Last time I was there, a few months ago, they checked your ticket as you got off the train but they also had the gates working. Why both in the space of a few yards ?

At Blackpool North, presumably, rather than Skegness? I don't know, very odd. I've had a manual ticket inspection on arrival before, but in that case we were let out of the side gate i.e. we didn't pass through the automatic ticket gates.

 

[Wolfie]

Had the unique joy of visiting in August. On arrival, the staff were stood blocking most of the gates so a trainload of passengers had to funnel through one barrier. They weren't checking tickets, they were just stood in everyone's way having a chat.

On the way home it was pretty quiet. A woman with three young kids and a load of luggage headed out through the open door to board the train (as she would have been able to at almost any other station). She got chased by an aggressive member of staff who shouted at her, forced her back into the building and slammed the door in her face. When they did eventually allow us to board, she got shouted at again for not being quick enough with all her bags.

Staff with that sort of attitude are likely to end up being physically assaulted. It shouldn't happen but all too easily could.

 

[Vespa]

Do you have a link to the Geoff Marshall piece, please?

No I'm afraid not, I asked about it but it wasn't available, perhaps he didn't have the opportunity to film it or was prevented from doing so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Certainly to me it would be unthinkable to actually begin an argument with another member of staff while at work.

Is the situation so bad that an argument would result rather than the guard wandering over to the barrier and just saying "we need to go shortly, can we have our passengers please?". That is, it is being alleged that they wilfully did not board the train?

I am not suggesting getting involved in the overall issue, but just pointing out something that had clearly been forgotten.

Any member of traincrew who was instead thinking "let's have an easy life and go without", however tempting, wants tea without biscuits.

It clearly isn't anywhere near as bad - delays, not deaths - but "not my job guv" leads to things like the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster and should not be OK anywhere.

 

[Ianno87]

.

It clearly isn't anywhere near as bad - delays, not deaths - but "not my job guv" leads to things like the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster and should not be OK anywhere.

Alternative take - the guard, in being occupied by trying to find where the passengers are (not safety critical, ultimately), is becoming distracted from their own safety-critical duties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternative take - the guard, in being occupied by trying to find where the passengers are (not safety critical, ultimately), is becoming distracted from their own safety-critical duties.

What safety critical duties does a guard have while sitting waiting for departure, bar reading the paper?

 

[Ianno87]

What safety critical duties does a guard have while sitting waiting for departure, bar reading the paper?

Getting into a potential argument/confrontation with less than helpful platform staff could create stress and a distraction (or ineffective communication). See: Staines Air Disaster.

 

[Starmill]

That is, it is being alleged that they wilfully did not board the train?

I don't know about this, but I think it's clear that some staff won't engage with the station staff at Blackpool North because they think will be treated as disrespectfully as customers who politely complain are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting into a potential argument/confrontation with less than helpful platform staff could create stress and a distraction (or ineffective communication). See: Staines Air Disaster.

Given that Northern guards are all revenue guards, if they can't work the train safely after a heated discussion e.g with a fare dodger they aren't going to last long in the job.

I am not suggesting they get into an argument but just enquire. If told "no, you're going out empty" presumably it would be time to call Control, report the immediate issue, and ask if that was what they were to do.

 

[Ianno87]

Given that Northern guards are all revenue guards, if they can't work the train safely after a heated discussion e.g with a fare dodger they aren't going to last long in the job.

They are trained to deal with fare dodgers.

They aren't trained to deal with conflicts with their own colleagues (nor should they have to be).

 

[furnessvale]

It is over 25 years since I last worked at Blackpool North and NOTHING has changed. The mafia that ran the place must surely have retired but it is apparent that they trained their replacements well, just as they were trained by their predecessors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are trained to deal with fare dodgers.

They aren't trained to deal with conflicts with their own colleagues (nor should they have to be).

I am not clear as to why simply enquiring as to the whereabouts of the passengers and accepting whatever answer was given (then reporting it to Control immediately and asking for instructions if it wasn't sensible) would be a conflict that would in any way be as serious as dealing with an angry fare dodger.

 

[Starmill]

I am not clear as to why simply enquiring as to the whereabouts of the passengers and accepting whatever answer was given (then reporting it to Control immediately and asking for instructions if it wasn't sensible) would be a conflict that would in any way be as serious as dealing with an angry fare dodger.

I think that you're misunderstanding the nature of the conflict. If the customer asked "excuse me, our train is leaving in five minutes can we not get on please?" the staff might have a range of responses. If a member of staff who was from another location asked them the same thing they'd probably get the same set of responses and nobody would open the doors. After you've done that several times and raised the issue via your line management chain but seen no changes, what else would there be to do?

 

[Trackman]

I've found this on Twitter:

21.26 BPN-MIA. Been waiting @platform 5 for doors to open since [email protected] train pulls out, leaving hundreds of us still in station. Been told it was already full & standing. Can u ask this was case & why did no BPN staff tell us?

So with 16 minutes to go, was it really full and standing?
Northern's answer was to send a DM and apologised for any confusion but didn't say yes or no.

A quick look on twitter and there was a German fireworks display last night in Blackpool so it may hold some water.

 

[Starmill]

Another possibility is that a conductor has decided to depart without the passengers knowing that it will lead to a deluge of complaints to customer services, which might raise the issue at a higher level in the company than anyone has previously been able to do.

 

[al78]

Had the unique joy of visiting in August. On arrival, the staff were stood blocking most of the gates so a trainload of passengers had to funnel through one barrier. They weren't checking tickets, they were just stood in everyone's way having a chat.

Perhaps they used to live in Horsham and walked dogs regularly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that you're misunderstanding the nature of the conflict. If the customer asked "excuse me, our train is leaving in five minutes can we not get on please?" the staff might have a range of responses. If a member of staff who was from another location asked them the same thing they'd probably get the same set of responses and nobody would open the doors. After you've done that several times and raised the issue via your line management chain but seen no changes, what else would there be to do?

Because I think this isn't a symptom of the problem at the station as such, because they are not well known for actually not boarding trains at all, just for operating a very old fashioned system for boarding them. It is thus likely they simply forgot that one, and while a reminder might have come with a snarky response I doubt they would then have wilfully not boarded it.

Unless of course it was full and standing as suggested on the post below yours, which case it is just a communication problem and the guard will have seen nothing amiss.

 

[Fokx]

Last time I was there, a few months ago, they checked your ticket as you got off the train but they also had the gates working. Why both in the space of a few yards ?

Barriers check that you have a ticket, not necessarily a valid one

Eg. No railcard, adult on child ticket, short faring from a station the train didn’t call at etc

 

[bramling]

This so called kettling of passengers causes tension and angst and makes the whole travelling experience much poorer. I thought they had started to move away from this 'confrontational' approach to boarding at Blackpool North. If the train has departed empty, as suggested, then we really have hit s new low in standards.

Out of interest, presumably the normal arrangement has continued right through Covid. "Kettling" passengers in an enclosed and not-particularly-well-ventilated space would seem to be less desirable than allowing people to wait in the open-air on the platforms.

It is unfortunate the electrification and remodelling works weren't used as an opportunity to make changes to the arrangements at Blackpool North. The doors may have their worth at certain busy times, but they should be the exception not the norm.

Skegness work a similar system but they seem better organised and less unfriendly.

Does Skegness, I think it used to.

And possibly Falmouth

I forgot if some Scottish termini work in a similar way. I've seen barriers at both Inverness and Fort William, but not sure if this is just for revenue purposes.

The doors at Euston are locked 2 minutes before departure, but they are reopened again straight after so if no staff attend a given train they don't block boarding. I suspect this might be because LNR don't do gateline checks as a matter of course other than 8-11, though.

This has always been my experience at Euston. I've always found it possible to reach trains using tools like RTTT or OTT before they're advertised. That said, I don't use Euston *that* often so my experience may not be universal.

No one gets away with this at Blackpool North though!

 

[Starmill]

Barriers check that you have a ticket, not necessarily a valid one

Eg. No railcard, adult on child ticket, short faring from a station the train didn’t call at etc

The remedy for this is replacing the automatic ticket gate check with the manual one. You don't do both.

 

[stuartl]

Indeed. Certainly to me it would be unthinkable to actually begin an argument with another member of staff while at work.

The issue is that it has been escalated but without that necessarily producing any long term changes.


At Blackpool North, presumably, rather than Skegness? I don't know, very odd. I've had a manual ticket inspection on arrival before, but in that case we were let out of the side gate i.e. we didn't pass through the automatic ticket gates.

Thank you for the reply, it was Blackpool, and as it was very busy I may well have not seen that the side gate was open. I'll pay more attention next time.

 

[Ianno87]

Out of interest, presumably the normal arrangement has continued right through Covid. "Kettling" passengers in an enclosed and not-particularly-well-ventilated space would seem to be less desirable than allowing people to wait in the open-air on the platforms.

It is unfortunate the electrification and remodelling works weren't used as an opportunity to make changes to the arrangements at Blackpool North. The doors may have their worth at certain busy times, but they should be the exception not the norm.

Skegness work a similar system but they seem better organised and less unfriendly.



I forgot if some Scottish termini work in a similar way. I've seen barriers at both Inverness and Fort William, but not sure if this is just for revenue purposes.



This has always been my experience at Euston. I've always found it possible to reach trains using tools like RTTT or OTT before they're advertised. That said, I don't use Euston *that* often so my experience may not be universal.

No one gets away with this at Blackpool North though!

The solution is just to get rid of the doors and the wall.they sit in entirely.

Is the station building up for redevelopment any time soon?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The solution is just to get rid of the doors and the wall.they sit in entirely.

Is the station building up for redevelopment any time soon?

Isn't it listed?

 

[bramling]

Because I think this isn't a symptom of the problem at the station as such, because they are not well known for actually not boarding trains at all, just for operating a very old fashioned system for boarding them. It is thus likely they simply forgot that one, and while a reminder might have come with a snarky response I doubt they would then have wilfully not boarded it.

Unless of course it was full and standing as suggested on the post below yours, which case it is just a communication problem and the guard will have seen nothing amiss.

I can't imagine it happens for the Blackpool North doors to not get opened at all. I presume the normal way of working is to keep the doors closed until the train crew are in place, which presumably can vary from train to train. So if the crew don't arrive until the latest possible moment then this could result in a late departure if the boarding process is slow for any reason. Having a look through RTT for the last few days, the overriding majority of services do seem to be recorded as departing right time, so they clearly aren't getting things *that* wrong on that front. We don't, of course, know how many of these had a "mad dash" with the doors being opened at the last minute.

Personally I would like to see this station at least trial abandoning the doors for a period of time. They're one of a few reasons why using this station is never a pleasant experience.

Isn't it listed?

No idea, however in a way I'd be sorry to see it go as it has a brutalist almost Soviet feel to it. I don't think there's any others like it.

The whole station is a dump though, including the immediate surroundings.

 

[miklcct]

https://twitter.com/TorstenB74/status/1446946882106925059

Does anyone know what's going on at Blackpool North?

Are they still up to their usual tricks of denying people access to the platform until just before a train departs, and in this case they appear to have gone a step further and not allowed anyone to board the train?

Did any passengers try to force into the platform at 21:25?

 

[Ianno87]

Isn't it listed?

We should preserve the archaic method of operation for future generations to enjoy!

 

[Neo9320]

I think that quite a number of train crew have tried internally to raise the customer service issues at Blackpool North because it can impede their job e.g. if people miss their train they complain about it to the guard on the next train, or sometimes departures are late for no justifiable reasons.

Unfortunately there's such a cultural resistance to acting on entrenched behaviours in some organisations that nothing gets done. It's not just Northern, this is of course something that affects many large organisations.


Was it in the summer? Skegness be frequently seems to have the manual pre-boarding check in summer but not winter.

Last time I was there was out of season. January/February time (can’t remember the exact date I’m afraid)

 

[duncanp]

I forgot if some Scottish termini work in a similar way. I've seen barriers at both Inverness and Fort William, but not sure if this is just for revenue purposes.

Oban has a gate which can be locked to prevent access to the platform.

But they usually unlock it in plenty of time before departure, and in any cases Oban doesn't have the crowds that Blackpool North has.

I was in Brighton in August this year, and the town was very busy, with a traffic jam around the station. A station like Brighton can get just as busy as Blackpool North during the peak season.

At Brighton, there are automatic ticket gates, and platforms are announced in plenty of time, so that people can board safely in a controlled manner. The train disappears from the departures screen about a minute beforehand, so that the train can depart on time.

Is there any reason why such a set up won't work at Blackpool North?

Or is the real reason for the gates simply that the train service to Blackpool North isn't adequate enough to cope with demand?

If this is the case, is there any scope for making more use of the Blackpool South line, at least for people travelling to Preston?

Are tickets to Blackpool North valid to and from Blackpool South?

If not perhaps they should be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We should preserve the archaic method of operation for future generations to enjoy!

The method of operation clearly not, but if the building is listed then just taking the wall out may not be possible.

They could just, shock horror, leave the doors open.

 

[thelem]

Is the situation so bad that an argument would result rather than the guard wandering over to the barrier and just saying "we need to go shortly, can we have our passengers please?". That is, it is being alleged that they wilfully did not board the train?

At what point do you ask that question? If the train crew are used to passengers being allowed to board at the last minute, then they wouldn't realise there was a problem until very close to the scheduled departure time. They would then need to get off their train to have the conversation, taking more time, and then if the doors were opened it would take time for the passengers to board.

If my main job is to get the train away safely on time, I can understand not wanting a late barrage of passengers.