Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[Greybeard33]

That's Collyhurst siding at Miles Platting Jn? There's an 09 stabled there to assist the freight shunting. Nothing to do with any passenger train turnback.

I believe the siding had to be realigned to make room for the remodelled Miles Platting Jn, so might appear to be new when viewed from a passing train.

 

[sportzbar]

That's Collyhurst siding at Miles Platting Jn? There's an 09 stabled there to assist the freight shunting. Nothing to do with any passenger train turnback.

On the opposite side, beside the Rochdale fasts, a new turn back facility is being installed.

 

[Ianno87]

On the opposite side, beside the Rochdale fasts, a new turn back facility is being installed.

Are you sure that's not just the Brewery Sidings Down Loop being re-laid?

 

[sportzbar]

Are you sure that's not just the Brewery Sidings Down Loop being re-laid?

Definitely a new turn back siding. Was briefed on it a few weeks ago....

 

[Ianno87]

Definitely a new turn back siding. Was briefed on it a few weeks ago....

Interesting.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I travelled east of Manchester Victoria today (to Ashton) I noticed about 2 miles east of Victoria a new siding almost at completion, is this for turning back any current or potential Victoria terminators from the west?

That I think is a relaid siding as they had to redo the alignment for higher speeds.

 

[CAF397]

On the opposite side, beside the Rochdale fasts, a new turn back facility is being installed.

But the person I replied to said they were travelling to Ashton, which diverges at Miles Platting Jn and goes nowhere near Brewery Jn?

 

[Llandudno]

But the person I replied to said they were travelling to Ashton, which diverges at Miles Platting Jn and goes nowhere near Brewery Jn?

Yes, I was travelling from Victoria towards Ashton, it certainly looked like a brand new turn back siding with buffer stops yet to be added on the right hand side travelling towards Ashton, approx 2 miles east of Victoria station.

Not sure when travelling West to East between Manchester and Leeds what is considered the UP or DOWN lines!

 

[Llama]

Down is away from Manchester Victoria on lines that radiate from there, up/down have nothing to do with points on a compass.

The only new siding around there is indeed the slewed-over siding within Collyhurst Street sidings, it had to be realigned when the Ashton lines were put on their new alignment.

There are indeed plans for a turnback siding around Miles Platting on the north side of the Rochdale lines, nothing at all to be seen on the ground yet though.

 

[Ianno87]

.

Not sure when travelling West to East between Manchester and Leeds what is considered the UP or DOWN lines!

Up is towards Manchester Victoria from all directions.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Plus TFW can't train the traincrew over the route until at least 2023-24, they have a huge training backlog and ongoing new traction training. So option C was unachievable for TFW services, plus the loss of the Manchester airport link was a deal breaker for N Wales and Chester area.

As I understand it, the issue is that Chester TfW traincrew know the road via Northwich because one early morning Chester to Manchester Airport train is routed via Northwich for route knowledge retention purposes. However Llandudno Junction TfW crews do not currently know the road via Northwich.

 

[Llandudno]

As I understand it, the issue is that Chester TfW traincrew know the road via Northwich because one early morning Chester to Manchester Airport train is routed via Northwich for route knowledge retention purposes. However Llandudno Junction TfW crews do not currently know the road via Northwich.

How many TfW train crew, drivers and guards are based at the Junction?

Mind you from December 2023 will the Junction train Crewe need to sign that route if Llandudno trains are running to via the Halton Curve to Liverpool instead of Manchester?

 

[wobman]

As I understand it, the issue is that Chester TfW traincrew know the road via Northwich because one early morning Chester to Manchester Airport train is routed via Northwich for route knowledge retention purposes. However Llandudno Junction TfW crews do not currently know the road via Northwich.

Of the nearly 100 drivers at Chester only around 30 in just 1 link sign Cheshire lines, so most of Chester depot would have to road learn the route aswell as Holyhead and Llandudno junction traincrew.

TFW already have a huge training backlog and there's the 197 training to start and 230 training to continue. Also Birkenhead North depot training, then the ongoing new traincrew training.

 

[wobman]

How many TfW train crew, drivers and guards are based at the Junction?

Mind you from December 2023 will the Junction train Crewe need to sign that route if Llandudno trains are running to via the Halton Curve to Liverpool instead of Manchester?

The Chester drivers sign Liverpool and Chester / Llandudno junction guards sign Liverpool, the Llandudno junction drivers would have to sign Cheshire lines first before Liverpool if that was the new route to Manchester. The Llandudno services are covered by the 3 depots (Chester / ludo jn / Holyhead) so there's no need for any extra training for Llandudno work.

 

[CICERO55]

Hello am i correct on thinking that from dec 2022, the following trains will operate from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester via CLC:- 1 tpe liverpool to cleethorpes, 1 emt liverpool to notts (norwich), 1 northern service per hour lime st to oxford road and 1 lime st service to warrington central? Thanks

 

[jonnyfan]

Hello am i correct on thinking that from dec 2022, the following trains will operate from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester via CLC:- 1 tpe liverpool to cleethorpes, 1 emt liverpool to notts (norwich), 1 northern service per hour lime st to oxford road and 1 lime st service to warrington central? Thanks

That is correct. We are still awaiting details of calling patterns, which will become available when the full timetable is released for consultation towards the end of this month.

 

[CICERO55]

That is correct. We are still awaiting details of calling patterns, which will become available when the full timetable is released for consultation towards the end of this month.

Good stuff

 

[Greybeard33]

That is correct. We are still awaiting details of calling patterns, which will become available when the full timetable is released for consultation towards the end of this month.

Indeed, although the consultation response document does provide some hints about calling patterns on the CLC line (my bolding):

Further discussions through the Task Force and TfN in relation to crossWarrington services have since created opportunities for rail links across Warrington. Manchester to Liverpool local services will be connected across Warrington once per hour. However, this requires some calls to be removed from established service patterns to improve reliability of a historically poor performing corridor. Further details are provided below

On the route between Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington Central, one stopping service per hour runs through from Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road. Another stopping train runs from Warrington to Liverpool each hour, with a Warrington to Manchester service running during the peaks. Whilst this solution maintains cross-Warrington journeys through to Liverpool and Manchester, a reduction in the number of station calls (in comparison with the December 2019 timetable) is needed to protect performance.

A number of constraints on the Warrington Central route prevent more station calls being added to services on this line:
• The need to reduce the frequency of trains on the Castlefield Corridor means that, off-peak, fewer services from Warrington Central will run. This decision is based on the relatively low loadings seen on this route outside peak periods.
• The half-hourly pattern of services between Manchester and Sheffield means there is no opportunity to change paths between Stockport and Sheffield without affecting a large number of other services.
• Services stop-over in Liverpool for approximately 20 minutes. Adding additional calls that reduce the length of these stop-overs would introduce new performance risks as trains would not be able to recover any delays for their next journey.
• Calls at Warrington West station take more time than calls at other locations, particularly Liverpool South Parkway, due to the high line speed at this location. It takes longer to decelerate and accelerate trains when the line speed is higher and adding in additional calls would reduce the chance of a right time arrival in case of any delays.

The original Option B said that the Cleethorpes semi-fast, replacing the current Manchester Airport service, would make additional calls at Irlam and Urmston, which would have reduced the 20 minute turnaround time at Liverpool. From the above, it now appears that the Task Force has realised that this would be too risky, and so Irlam and Urmston will only get 1tph off-peak.

The original Option B also had an hourly all stations stopper between Warrington Central and Oxford Road, improving the current 1tp2h frequency at the minor stations. But this service is to be extended to/from Liverpool in B+, in order to provide cross-Warrington connectivity from Padgate and Warrington West. From the above it appears that the downside of this change is that this service will skip-stop between Warrington and Manchester, like the current stoppers, but with some of the minor stations having an even lower frequency than 1tp2h (perhaps peak only?), in order to reduce the risk of delay to the following semi-fast.

 

[Starmill]

1tph from Urmston to Manchester, with all trains wasting time stopping at Humphrey Park and Trafford Park, would be particularly poor.

 

[Greybeard33]

1tph from Urmston to Manchester, with all trains wasting time stopping at Humphrey Park and Trafford Park, would be particularly poor.

I suspect that no trains will stop at Trafford Park and Humphrey Park off-peak - that is what the document means by "some calls to be removed from established service patterns".

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're right. Then I suppose the only way of fixing the CLC stopper problem is to send the EMR service into the Piccadilly trainshed and replace it with a Stockport - Liverpool service.

Or Metrolink.

I suspect that no trains will stop at Trafford Park and Humphrey Park off-peak - that is what the document means by "some calls to be removed from established service patterns".

Chassen Road is probably more bin-worthy than Humphrey Park. The latter is in the middle of a large residential area, the former has a small catchment due to being near Urmston and having a large park on one side.

Edit: surprisingly Trafford Park has a substantially higher usage than Humphrey Park...unless people are using it for "dumbbell" fare evasion of course!

 

[Greybeard33]

You're right. Then I suppose the only way of fixing the CLC stopper problem is to send the EMR service into the Piccadilly trainshed and replace it with a Stockport - Liverpool service.

There are no paths for an additional service between Piccadilly and Stockport.

 

[LOL The Irony]

There are no paths for an additional service between Piccadilly and Stockport.

Yeah. I now see that this situation is completely hopeless. I wonder if there was a shovel ready project that could be implemented that will fix most of the issues we currently face.

 

[Greybeard33]

Or Metrolink.



Chassen Road is probably more bin-worthy than Humphrey Park. The latter is in the middle of a large residential area, the former has a small catchment due to being near Urmston and having a large park on one side.

Edit: surprisingly Trafford Park has a substantially higher usage than Humphrey Park...unless people are using it for "dumbbell" fare evasion of course!

Trafford Park lies on the edge of an industrial/commercial area and so likely sees more commuting in rather than out.

My guess is that some or all of Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Chassen Road, Flixton and Glazebrook are at risk of service cuts.

 

[daodao]

Trafford Park lies on the edge of an industrial/commercial area and so likely sees more commuting in rather than out.

My guess is that some or all of Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Chassen Road, Flixton and Glazebrook are at risk of service cuts.

I suspect that you are correct, but it will be become clear soon. IMO, it is a disgraceful way to treat this suburban line. For such an urban stopping service to be of any practical use, it needs to be half-hourly, at least between Irlam and Manchester. Reducing services further (on the grounds of existing poor use) is a vicious circle.

 

[Grimsby town]

There's a fair bit of demand from the Stretford, Salford Quays areas to Birchwood Park. My partner recently moved to a job there and everybody who works in team lives in West Manchester especially in the aforementioned areas. Pretty much everyone drives currently but if the service to the local stations was improved I imagine there would be potential more demand travelling west. I doubt too many people would impacted by removing stops at those stations but I don't think the Metrolink, which is a 20 minute+ walk from Trafford Park Station, can be considered an alternative for the house in the immediate vicinity of the railway line. The rule of thumb is generally a 15 minute maximum walk time is considered accessible to Metrolink Stops.

 

[LOL The Irony]

There isn't.

(If you're talking about Picc 15/16, they don't fix the problem, as I explained upthread, from the Congested Infrastructure study NR did in 2019)

Is that the report that was endorsed by failing grayling's lackey that called ERTMS "digital signaling" to sound cool and hip and suggested that implementing it on Castlefield would solve all the problems?

 

[Greybeard33]

The only other possible solution would be to put calls in both the Liverpool-Cleethorpes and Liverpool-Nottingham services, and solve the Liverpool turnround issue by cross-formimg them - which would mean them having to be the same operator and stock.

Does Lime Street have the platform capacity to accommodate overlapping 40 minute layovers?

There is also the issue that the EMR service departs Lime Street 4 minutes after the Avanti Euston service. They would conflict at Edge Hill if the EMR departed earlier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does Lime Street have the platform capacity to accommodate overlapping 40 minute layovers?

There is also the issue that the EMR service departs Lime Street 4 minutes after the Avanti Euston service. They would conflict at Edge Hill if the EMR departed earlier.

This all tells me that the route is more trouble than it's worth, and a Metrolink-Merseyrail solution can't come too soon.

 

[Ianno87]

Is that the report that was endorsed by failing grayling's lackey that called ERTMS "digital signaling" to sound cool and hip and suggested that implementing it on Castlefield would solve all the problems?

No. I linked it upthread: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/ma...ce-timetable-consultation.213089/post-5350266

Does Lime Street have the platform capacity to accommodate overlapping 40 minute layovers?

May depend on what the consequential impact is to the local service turnround times (which may shorten as a result of recasting the CLC timetable pattern - they are currently around 25 minutes each).