Daylight saving and railways discussion

[bishdunster]

The clock changes are done for a reason - southern England has approx 8 hours of daylight at the winter solstice and 16.5 hours at the summer solstice. The difference is greater further north.

8 hours in winter means it isn't possible to go to work, do a 9-5 job and go home in daylight for most people. The practical experience indicates there are fewer crashes if the hours of darkness are after work than before. It also allows primary schoolchildren largely to go to school and come home in daylight.

Obviously it does depend where you are - sunrise in Ramsgate on 21 December is almost an hour earlier than Fort William.

In the summer however, remaining on GMT would see the sun rise in June before 4am for most of the country (when almost no-one is about) and set everywhere before 9pm (when a lot of people are about). Using BST gives a significant electricity saving, most likely reduces crime against individuals (although perhaps not properties) and helps people top up the old Vitamin D.

If you used GMT all year round sunrise would be just after 3am in Aberdeen in June and sunset would be just after 8.10pm in Dover.

The current system allows the best use of limited daylight in winter and a more-energy efficient use of daylight in the summer. I appreciate some people find the change inconvenient, but it's the best use of the light we have. Whilst it isn't changing natural time, only the way humans count it, if you didn't shift the clocks then it's quite possible schools and businesses would end up shifting their hours anyway.

TBF if you do shift work rather than a 9-5 job as most (all?) rail staff do, then I can see why you might favour a single consistent timezone.

The EU's effort to stop changing clocks appears to have stalled. If it does eventually go ahead, I suspect it will be changed back within a few years when it becomes clear why the clocks changed twice a year in the first

 

[Falcon1200]

It is not an "extra" hour of daylight at all as it is simply being moved an hour earlier or later.

I do actually realise that, which is why I put the word 'extra' in inverted commas ! Shouldn't have bothered, clearly......

 

[edwin_m]

A onetime Miss T had the best approach on clock change Sunday morning.

Spring : "It's 9 o'clock now you've changed the wall clock, but really only 8 o'clock on my watch, so I can have an extra hour in bed. See you later".

Autumn : "It's 9 o'clock on my watch, but that's only 8 o'clock on the wall clock now, so I can have an extra hour in bed. See you later".

The clock change in either direction is bad news for parents of young children, who won't either sleep in an hour or go to bed an hour early regardless of what the clock says.

 

[Grumbler]

The clock change in either direction is bad news for parents of young children, who won't either sleep in an hour or go to bed an hour early regardless of what the clock says.

Absolutely correct.

The clock changes are done for a reason - southern England has approx 8 hours of daylight at the winter solstice and 16.5 hours at the summer solstice. The difference is greater further north.

8 hours in winter means it isn't possible to go to work, do a 9-5 job and go home in daylight for most people. The practical experience indicates there are fewer crashes if the hours of darkness are after work than before. It also allows primary schoolchildren largely to go to school and come home in daylight.

Obviously it does depend where you are - sunrise in Ramsgate on 21 December is almost an hour earlier than Fort William.

In the summer however, remaining on GMT would see the sun rise in June before 4am for most of the country (when almost no-one is about) and set everywhere before 9pm (when a lot of people are about). Using BST gives a significant electricity saving, most likely reduces crime against individuals (although perhaps not properties) and helps people top up the old Vitamin D.

If you used GMT all year round sunrise would be just after 3am in Aberdeen in June and sunset would be just after 8.10pm in Dover.

The current system allows the best use of limited daylight in winter and a more-energy efficient use of daylight in the summer. I appreciate some people find the change inconvenient, but it's the best use of the light we have. Whilst it isn't changing natural time, only the way humans count it, if you didn't shift the clocks then it's quite possible schools and businesses would end up shifting their hours anyway.

TBF if you do shift work rather than a 9-5 job as most (all?) rail staff do, then I can see why you might favour a single consistent timezone.

The EU's effort to stop changing clocks appears to have stalled. If it does eventually go ahead, I suspect it will be changed back within a few years when it becomes clear why the clocks changed twice a year in the first place.

The biennial clock change was brought in during WW1 to bring forward the working day in order to allow more time for outside leisure and sporting activities after the working day. During WW2 we adopted double summer time. The differences in daylight hours between different latitudes had nothing to do with it. Several decades before 1914 we adopted "railway time" which got rid of the inconvenience of each place having its own time. The rest of the world following our lead by adopting the system of time zones and agreeing on where in the world nearby places would have to be on different dates (the Pacific islanders were not consulted).

How many people have strict 9-5 jobs these days? I often would get in really early during the summer in order to get away early. Similarly in winter I tended to work later hours. My local park gates are shut during the hours of darkness, not at the same clock times each day. Businesses set their opening times according to demand, not what the clock says. The issue of missed phone calls requiring everyone to be at their desks at the same is no loger relevant. As usual the public sector is behind the curve so school hours seem to be set in stone, rather than being adjusted according to the date.

We should just accept the fact that we need to adjust our activities according to the season, no need to put up with nonsenses such as we are about to have this Sunday which will be the longest day wth 25 hours in it.

At least we don't have to endure the Roman practice where the first hour was always at sunrise, and the twelfth at sunset, so the length of an hour varied according to the season. I've no idea how the Romans would have coped had their empire ever extended into the Arctic circle.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Do you mean that midday should actually be midday? Shocker!

That would only be true for places on the meridian, For places in the West of England, Wales and particularly Northern Ireland it would not hold

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Most people who whinge about daylight saving time and campaign for BST all year round live not only in the far south of the British Isles, but also the far east. This means it stays light far later in winter than it does in say Derry or Lerwick. Before I retired, I was very glad not to have to scrape ice of my windscreen when I got up in the morning and set off for work at about 0830 as we were on GMT (in Cheshire).

Changing the system in the UK could also cause problems in Ireland where there would be two different times zones unless the Republic reluctantly followed suit.

 

[Watershed]

Most people who whinge about daylight saving time and campaign for BST all year round live not only in the far south of the British Isles, but also the far east. This means it stays light far later in winter than it does in say Derry or Lerwick. Before I retired, I was very glad not to have to scrape ice of my windscreen when I got up in the morning and set off for work at about 0830 as we were on GMT (in Cheshire).

Changing the system in the UK could also cause problems in Ireland where there would be two different times zones unless the Republic reluctantly followed suit.

Or you could have a time zone boundary down the Irish Sea (ducks for cover )

 

[Ediswan]

Most people who whinge about daylight saving time and campaign for BST all year round live not only in the far south of the British Isles, but also the far east. This means it stays light far later in winter than it does in say Derry or Lerwick.

For any given location, on any given day, BST makes sunset later (compared to GMT). If you want the latest sunset, live in the extreme south west.

 

[Grecian 1998]

For any given location, on any given day, BST makes sunset later (compared to GMT). If you want the latest sunset, live in the extreme south west.

Only during the darker six months from late September - late March. If you want later sunsets in the summer, live in the far north-west.

 

[kieron]

When I was closely involved in such things (in the 1970s) we used to issue quite substantial special notices detailing the effects of clock changeover night on the timings of each timetabled train.

This data specification from 2015 says the "daylight savings time" adjustments were in the Weekly Operating Notices then, too. I don't know if they still are, but I haven't seen a public-facing interface which uses this data.

I wonder if they'd arrange a taxi for anyone who misses a train because it left an hour before it was due to go.

Only during the darker six months from late September - late March. If you want later sunsets in the summer, live in the far north-west.

The UK has more north-east than it does north-west, so someone who wants to live somewhere where it doesn't get all that dark in summer should move to Shetland. Baltasound (on Unst) had 19 hours 10 mnutes of daylight on 21/6. It was cloudy all day, so you wouldn't have been able to watch the sun set.

By contrast, Rockall (which isn't anywhere you could move to) only had 18 hours 3 minutes.

 

[Ken H]

This data specification from 2015 says the "daylight savings time" adjustments were in the Weekly Operating Notices then, too. I don't know if they still are, but I haven't seen a public-facing interface which uses this data.

I wonder if they'd arrange a taxi for anyone who misses a train because it left an hour before it was due to go.

The UK has more north-east than it does north-west, so someone who wants to live somewhere where it doesn't get all that dark in summer should move to Shetland. Baltasound (on Unst) had 19 hours 10 mnutes of daylight on 21/6. It was cloudy all day, so you wouldn't have been able to watch the sun set.

By contrast, Rockall (which isn't anywhere you could move to) only had 18 hours 3 minutes.

Even in N Yorks it doesnt get properly dark mid May - Mid July.

 

[Grumbler]

Changing the system in the UK could also cause problems in Ireland where there would be two different times zones unless the Republic reluctantly followed suit.

I think there are places in the USA which do not adopt DST although the rest of their state does.

 

[duncanp]

I think there are places in the USA which do not adopt DST although the rest of their state does.

Indiana has some counties that observe Eastern time (in line with New York) and other counties that observe Central time (in line with Chicago)

This causes an issue on the South Shore Line from Chicago, where every station is in the Central time zone except the last station at South Bend.

This is made clear in the timetable

https://www.mysouthshoreline.com/images/timetables-may2021-single-pages-v1_1.pdf

Arizona does not observe daylight saving time.

Interestingly Amtrak trains running on time at 2am at the time of the autumn clock change carry on to the next station, and then wait an hour before resuming their journey.

I don't know what they do at the time of the spring clock change, unless they adjust arrival times after the clock change for affected trains.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The UK has more north-east than it does north-west,

Even the "north east" of England, as well of the whole of Scotland (even Shetland) is actually west of the Greenwich meridian. At Berwick you are 2 degrees west, so local time is already 8 minutes behind London

 

[etr221]

Indiana has some counties that observe Eastern time (in line with New York) and other counties that observe Central time (in line with Chicago)

This causes an issue on the South Shore Line from Chicago, where every station is in the Central time zone except the last station at South Bend.

This is made clear in the timetable

https://www.mysouthshoreline.com/images/timetables-may2021-single-pages-v1_1.pdf

Arizona does not observe daylight saving time.

Interestingly Amtrak trains running on time at 2am at the time of the autumn clock change carry on to the next station, and then wait an hour before resuming their journey.

I don't know what they do at the time of the spring clock change, unless they adjust arrival times after the clock change for affected trains.

What the SS timetable does not actually make clear is that, apart from the times for South Bend, all times are Central Time (CST or CDT according to season). But it used to be even more confusing, as Indiana only made Daylight Saving Time (DST) universal in 2006. It used to be the case hat those counties close to Chicago used Central Time, with DST (so CST or CDT), while further East it was Eastern time, without clock change/DST - so EST throughout. At that time the SS timetable said 'all times are Chicago time'.
And there is a story that, when DST was new, so even more confusion, there was a (lady) passenger who was in discussion (polite word for argument) with the the conductor as to when they would arrive - which was ended with the conductor saying 'Madam, we will arrive in Chicago in an hour'

 

[Shimbleshanks]

8 hours in winter means it isn't possible to go to work, do a 9-5 job and go home in daylight for most people.

So there are some people who can somehow delay the setting of the sun so they get more than eight hours (9-5) in which to go home, or possibly bring forward sunrise in the morning? I think Moses was the last guy to pull that stunt, if I remember my school scripture lessons correctly...

 

[edwin_m]

So there are some people who can somehow delay the setting of the sun so they get more than eight hours (9-5) in which to go home, or possibly bring forward sunrise in the morning? I think Moses was the last guy to pull that stunt, if I remember my school scripture lessons correctly...

The 9-5 is the important bit here. If they had the flexibility to do 10-6 or 8-4 then they could make the best use of whatever daylight was available.

 

[geoffk]

The biennial clock change should be scrapped IMHO. It causes confusion with overnight services (particularly international flights), also countries change their clocks on different dates. Better to simply adjust timetables according to demand. Working hours tend to be flexible these days, so people tend to travel earlier during the summer.

In that case, do you want permanent GMT or BST? The whole point of changing the clocks is to align daylight hours as far as possible with waking hours. It's not perfect of course and the outcome varies depending whether you are in Cornwall or Caithness, but I think we should leave things as they are. All-year BST will mean long dark mornings in the north of England and Scotland, while all-year GMT means summer evenings get dark earlier and we have daylight at silly o'clock in the morning.

 

[Ediswan]

In that case, do you want permanent GMT or BST?

In principle, you could split the difference and use UTC+00:30. This would, of course, introduce a whole collection of other problems.

 

[Ken H]

In principle, you could split the difference and use UTC+00:30. This would, of course, introduce a whole collection of other problems.

India is GMT + 5h 30m

 

[JamesT]

India is GMT + 5h 30m

Or if you want truly bonkers, try Australian Central Western Standard Time. UTC + 8:45.

 

[Trackman]

Once upon a time didn't some cities and towns have their own time zones- was this something to do with daylight saving?
I think it changed when the railways came along to stop the obvious confusion.

 

[Grumbler]

In practice, there's not much to be gained by choosing a local time not a whole number of hours different from UTC, since solar noon can be fast or slow of noon according to the clock by up to about 16.5 minutes.

 

[30907]

So there are some people who can somehow delay the setting of the sun so they get more than eight hours (9-5) in which to go home, or possibly bring forward sunrise in the morning? I think Moses was the last guy to pull that stunt, if I remember my school scripture lessons correctly...

Pedant time: Joshua (unspecified delay) or Isaiah as requested by Hezekiah (calibration of timepiece uncertain)

 

[norbitonflyer]

8 hours in winter means it isn't possible to go to work, do a 9-5 job and go home in daylight for most people.

So there are some people who can somehow delay the setting of the sun so they get more than eight hours (9-5) in which to go home, or possibly bring forward sunrise in the morning?

Once upon a time didn't some cities and towns have their own time zones- was this something to do with daylight saving?
I think it changed when the railways came along to stop the obvious confusion.

Until the coming of the railways made a standard time not just possible (through better communications) but essential, everywhere set their clocks according to local solar time

 

[317 forever]

Given that we are on GMT + 1 hour for 7 months of the year, we are on average 35 minutes ahead of GMT. The simplest compromise would be to move our clocks forward 35 minutes next March and never change them again.

 

[TPO]

I seem to recall that one of the opponents for scrapping daylight saving was Scottish farmers - they would have to get up earlier to milk their cows or something. Surely the cows don't know what time it is, so it doesn't matter when they are milked, provided it is time morning and evenng.

As a diurnal species, it is natural for us the be active during daylight hours. Now I am retired I generally rise earlier in the summer than in the winter, regardless of the time displayed on clocks. What does surprise me is the lack of willingness to adapt to the seasons, for example, the fact that kids have to walk along dark streets - why not shorten school hours during the winter but reduce school holidays a bit? I was a school governor for a whie and one of the issues was parents saving money on overseas holidays by taking their kids from school during term time. Of course the teachers blamed the tour operators, my suggestion that schools could help by staggering school holidays over a longer period, as happens in other countries, was met with "Oh no, we can't do that!".

Which all reflects that as Ford Prefect tells Arthur Dent in the Hitchhikes Guide to the Galaxy "time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so."

I'm not sure why we have a fixation on clock-time as a measure of virtue as it were- that being up "early" is somehow better than being up "late." Why can't we work more in tune with our natural rhythms? Shift work times around as seasons progress rather than move the clocks around?

Cows have a natural rhythm (as our cats do!) so they want milking (or feeding) at their natural rhythm irrespective of what the clock says.

I admit that as I get older I am glad I no longer need to do shifts as I find getting up before sunrise extremely difficult- I naturally drift to later rising (as the sun comes up) in the winter months.

There's much to be said for natural rhythms, adolescents have a different natural rhythm to adults which makes early school starts a really poor thing. Why can't we organise rosters so that the natural early birds get the Earlies, and so on- and stick on them not rotate?. There's enough variation in human rhythms (early birds vs night owls) that I'm sure we could improve shifts this way and decrease the adverse effects on the body that working shift does have.

TPO

 

[kieron]

I think there are places in the USA which do not adopt DST although the rest of their state does.

If wikipedia is to be believed, then the only state/territory which doesn't have uniform DST is Arizona, where only the Navajo Nation observes it.

Even the "north east" of England, as well of the whole of Scotland (even Shetland) is actually west of the Greenwich meridian. At Berwick you are 2 degrees west, so local time is already 8 minutes behind London

Baltasound is west of London (but east of Reading), but that's neither here nor there when it's so much further north. If you started in Baltasound and went east until you were somewhere where the sun set at the same time on the summer solstice as it did in Greenwich, you'd end up in the Bering Sea north of Åland.

 

[Gloster]

If wikipedia is to be believed, then the only state/territory which doesn't have uniform DST is Arizona, where only the Navajo Nation observes it.

Baltasound is west of London (but east of Reading), but that's neither here nor there when it's so much further north. If you started in Baltasound and went east until you were somewhere where the sun set at the same time on the summer solstice as it did in Greenwich, you'd end up in the Bering Sea north of Åland.

The Bering Sea is at the north end of the Pacific. Åland is in the Baltic Sea between Sweden and Finland.

 

[JonathanH]

From the displays at Redhill tonight

[Picture shows a clarification about a 0144 departure occurring before the clocks go back]