• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

Status
Not open for further replies.

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,307
The Metro has thrown out the garbage again about the passengers calling loved ones to say goodbye and there being a seven minute gap. Also mentions the driver of the SWR was in his 70s.
I actually saw an interview with a young passenger and he actually said this on the news, it was due to the smell of diesel people started panicking and some people where calling relatives in case things didn't end well. He did look very nervous though and was probably paraphrasing rather than quoting word for word.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,518
Just out of interest what speed should the approaching train have been going? The 159 was coming across the junction, yes?
At the junction the main line speed is 50, but it then reduces to 40 then 30 towards Salisbury station. I suspect in normal circumstances they might already be decelerating. But unless there’s been a major signalling problem or other issue with the train then the SWR shouldn’t have been there.
 
Last edited:

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,955
It's quite possible the signalling was functioning correctly and other factors are more relevant.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,274
SWR is now running Salisbury to Exeter. GWR evidently has enough stock east of Salisbury to run Portsmouth - Romsey. Grateley, Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge are without a train service; is the Laverstock Loop available as a diversionary route or is it too close to the crash site? If not is a Basingstoke - Romsey service a feasible option? Of course this doesn't help anyone getting to Salisbury and SWR may not have enough stock the wrong side of the closure.
 

pelli

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2016
Messages
248
If, hypothetically, the driver of the first train made an immediate emergency call to stop all traffic as they felt/heard a large collision involving the back of their train, and then later it was found that a second train has hit the back half of the first train, this might explain how the initial official interpretation of events came to be that the first train must have hit a large object that fell from the tunnel as the train passed (as the driver did not see any objects before the collision), stopped/split/derailed, and then got hit by the second train?
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,300
Location
Greater Manchester
There must have been either a SPAD or a wrong side signal failure.

In either case why is unknown. RAIB will in due course report on this.
I imagine the accident investigators will focus particularly on:
  • The possibility of a wrong side failure of signal SY29, which should have shown a single yellow to the SWR train about half a mile before Tunnel Junction.
  • The timing of brake applications (whether by the driver, AWS or TPWS).
  • The railhead conditions and braking performance.
 

WesternBiker

Member
Joined
26 Aug 2020
Messages
609
Location
Farnborough
Do TOCs and/or ROSCOs actually insure their trains with a third party, or do they cover the cost from their own reserves, as some large organisations do? ("Self-insurance")?
You beat me to it! My operating assumption would be self-insurance (inherited from BR days) but can anyone else shed light?
 

cjmillsnun

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
3,255
Yes we are at the stage where something official should be being put out, especially with some dubious stuff going out on the news media.

Rail users deserve reassurances.
And if the answers aren’t there yet? The worst thing to do is put out factually incorrect information to the media.
 

Bow Fell

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2020
Messages
259
Location
UK
Not saying that it was the cause, but for comparison here’s how localised railhead conditions can affect stopping distances.

The train from the video sliding for nearly 2 miles since the initial brake application.

 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,382
Just out of interest what speed should the approaching train have been going? The 159 was coming across the junction, yes?
The speed limit for the GWR train on green signals would be 20mph.

The speed limit for the SWT train on green signals would be 50mph.

If either were approaching a red signal, then the rule of thumb is 15mph (some TOCs permit 20mph) around 200 yards from the signal, stopping around one coach length from the signal.
 

Colin1501

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2019
Messages
168
Just a quick question on the signalling set-up at Tunnel Junction (and apologies if this has been asked/answered previously). If the route is set to or from Romsey, as it presumably was at the time of the accident, would a train approaching from Andover be permitted right up to the signal immediately protecting the junction (31), or would it normally be held at the previous one east of Laverstock North Junction (29)?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,820
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
And if the answers aren’t there yet? The worst thing to do is put out factually incorrect information to the media.

There is no way by this stage they don't know *what* happened. There are still, even now, news outlets putting out stuff about the first train having hit something and/or being derailed.

It really doesn't look good to the wider audience, no one seemingly in charge of what's going on.
 

KendalR

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2020
Messages
38
Location
.
Not saying that it was the cause, but for comparison here’s how localised railhead conditions can affect stopping distances.

The train from the video sliding for nearly 2 miles since the initial brake application.

Although I don't know all the facts, I can imagine railhead contamination has a high chance of having played a part. The boundary is littered with trees along the boundary at the junction and from either approach not to mention the wind and rain on Sunday.

Autumn Adhesion Investigation Part 1: Signals WK338 and WK336 Passed at Danger at Esher 25 November 2005

Although the above report is from 2005 it again shows how unpredictable railhead contamination can be in a) predicting it and b) managing it.

Wether the signal was red or black, TPWS or AWS activated or not, if the railhead contamination is bad enough unfortunately brake interventions, sanding or wheel slip protection won't always stop a train from sliding past a signal.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,518
Just a quick question on the signalling set-up at Tunnel Junction (and apologies if this has been asked/answered previously). If the route is set to or from Romsey, as it presumably was at the time of the accident, would a train approaching from Andover be permitted right up to the signal immediately protecting the junction (31), or would it normally be held at the previous one east of Laverstock North Junction (29)?
I’ve just read in wnxx that in the normal course the trains from Andover direction often wait at that signal right at the junction and see the down Cardiff train pass in front. Not sure if that would be the same for the Romsey direction though.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,370
Although I don't know all the facts, I can imagine railhead contamination has a high chance of having played a part. The boundary is littered with trees along the boundary at the junction and from either approach not to mention the wind and rain on Sunday.

Autumn Adhesion Investigation Part 1: Signals WK338 and WK336 Passed at Danger at Esher 25 November 2005

Although the above report is from 2005 it again shows how unpredictable railhead contamination can be in a) predicting it and b) managing it.

Wether the signal was red or black, TPWS or AWS activated or not, if the railhead contamination is bad enough unfortunately brake interventions, sanding or wheel slip protection won't always stop a train from sliding past a signal.
It should also be noted that the railhead treatment train does not appear to have run on the Basingstoke to Salisbury line on Sunday.
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,258
Location
Yorkshire
Grateley, Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge are without a train service; is the Laverstock Loop available as a diversionary route or is it too close to the crash site?
My assumption would be that with the cause to be determined of the incident, that all of the signalling in that area (including the chord, being so close) will be under scrutiny and unable to be used
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,300
Location
Torbay
Just a quick question on the signalling set-up at Tunnel Junction (and apologies if this has been asked/answered previously). If the route is set to or from Romsey, as it presumably was at the time of the accident, would a train approaching from Andover be permitted right up to the signal immediately protecting the junction (31), or would it normally be held at the previous one east of Laverstock North Junction (29)?
With a 160m overlap clear of the junction from 31, a train should normally be able to approach the junction signal at red with the junction blocked following a yellow at 29. In TCB, overlaps are normally 200m but may be reduced for lower approach speeds, subject to risk assessment on new schemes.
 

mpthomson

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2016
Messages
973
Unfortunately, it sounds as if the driver has sustained ‘life-changing injuries’.
To be fair that covers a large range of injuries from the potentially fatal head injuries or amputations to something much less severe that requires relatively (in the grand scheme of things) minor surgery but may result in reduced mobility post-operatively. Pinning and fixing a badly broken ankle is an example of the latter. The term doesn't necessarily mean losing a leg/ being blinded etc or that he won't be able to resume his job in the future, should he wish to.

Clearly not great whatever it is, but it may not be as serious as the term might lead you to believe. Thoughts to him whatever it is.
 

Grumpy Git

On Moderation
Joined
13 Oct 2019
Messages
2,140
Location
Liverpool
It would be interesting to compare a photograph of the tunnel portal now to one of (say) 50 years ago. I'd wager there was virtually no vegetation other than grass anywhere near?

Whilst trees/shrubs are great for biodiversity, they are a bloody menace near the rails. Vegetation management seems to have become a retrospective task.
 

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,983
To be fair that covers a large range of injuries from the potentially fatal head injuries or amputations to something much less severe that requires relatively (in the grand scheme of things) minor surgery but may result in reduced mobility post-operatively. Pinning and fixing a badly broken ankle is an example of the latter. The term doesn't necessarily mean losing a leg/ being blinded etc or that he won't be able to resume his job in the future, should he wish to.

Clearly not great whatever it is, but it may not be as serious as the term might lead you to believe. Thoughts to him whatever it is.
Indeed; I find the term potentially more inappropriate than describing the injury. For instance if it were the example you gave, that would be better described as the injury itself. One can always euphemise when the outcome is uncertain, rather than always use that term.

We are all hoping for the best for the driver.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,317
Location
West of Andover
I’ve just read in wnxx that in the normal course the trains from Andover direction often wait at that signal right at the junction and see the down Cardiff train pass in front. Not sure if that would be the same for the Romsey direction though.

I've lost count how many times I've been on a train at that signal due to the stopper from Basingstoke normally following the 158 from Romsey into Salisbury (when they share platform 6)

A photo I took back in January with a Salisbury bound 159 waiting a few minutes at that signal for a 158 to come round the bend from the Romsey line

PXL_20210109_141644994.jpg
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,634
Indeed; I find the term potentially more inappropriate than describing the injury. For instance if it were the example you gave, that would be better described as the injury itself. One can always euphemise when the outcome is uncertain, rather than always use that term.

We are all hoping for the best for the driver.
Hopefully without being inappropriate and to hopefully reassure - I believe it is more towards the latter description of broken bones rather than anything like a traumatic head injury, though obviously still terrible for the person concerned.
 

Thumper1127

Member
Joined
19 Jan 2019
Messages
167
Although I don't know all the facts, I can imagine railhead contamination has a high chance of having played a part. The boundary is littered with trees along the boundary at the junction and from either approach not to mention the wind and rain on Sunday.

Autumn Adhesion Investigation Part 1: Signals WK338 and WK336 Passed at Danger at Esher 25 November 2005

Although the above report is from 2005 it again shows how unpredictable railhead contamination can be in a) predicting it and b) managing it.

Wether the signal was red or black, TPWS or AWS activated or not, if the railhead contamination is bad enough unfortunately brake interventions, sanding or wheel slip protection won't always stop a train from sliding past a signal.
As far as I could see yesterday, the Rail Adhesion train did not run on Saturday or Sunday. One was never activated to run, one was cancelled. One is showing as having run on Friday. Certainly could be a factor.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,370
It would be interesting to compare a photograph of the tunnel portal now to one of (say) 50 years ago. I'd wager there was virtually no vegetation other than grass anywhere near?
Here you go: https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10873405094

Whilst trees/shrubs are great for biodiversity, they are a bloody menace near the rails. Vegetation management seems to have become a retrospective task.
There was the infamous Network Rail report a while back about this that came across as being more about tree hugging than the safety risk that trees are.
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,883
The speed limit for the GWR train on green signals would be 20mph.

The speed limit for the SWT train on green signals would be 50mph.

If either were approaching a red signal, then the rule of thumb is 15mph (some TOCs permit 20mph) around 200 yards from the signal, stopping around one coach length from the signal.
If the signal after the tunnel is red, the 1Fxx services will still happily do 20 and increase speed slightly through the tunnel once the rear is clear of the junction due to the signal being sufficiently situated some distance from the tunnel exit.
 

alxndr

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2015
Messages
1,488
To be fair that covers a large range of injuries from the potentially fatal head injuries or amputations to something much less severe that requires relatively (in the grand scheme of things) minor surgery but may result in reduced mobility post-operatively. Pinning and fixing a badly broken ankle is an example of the latter. The term doesn't necessarily mean losing a leg/ being blinded etc or that he won't be able to resume his job in the future, should he wish to.
Indeed, I know someone who broke their ankle quite badly and is, nearly two years later, in pain and having to use a stick to get around. Even lesser injuries can have an impact, my partner broke a metatarsal foot a year ago and still can't stand or walk as long as they used to without pain.
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,075
Location
Stockport
It would be interesting to compare a photograph of the tunnel portal now to one of (say) 50 years ago. I'd wager there was virtually no vegetation other than grass anywhere near?

Whilst trees/shrubs are great for biodiversity, they are a bloody menace near the rails. Vegetation management seems to have become a retrospective task.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top