Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[Bletchleyite]

So after no Supertram in 2005 and the refusal of the trolley bus scheme in 2016, a metro system is suddenly going to be viable?

I didn't read it as being an U-Bahn, I read it as a Merseyrail style recast of the local services around Leeds. Pretty cheap to do with relatively little in the way of infrastructure changes, particularly if some routes will be wired already.

 

[quantinghome]

I don't propose removing the York to Blackpool. The "former" here referred to the Leeds to Manchester Victoria.

So some trains terminate at Interchange, some continue through, some are replaced by a tram-train. What are you trying to achieve by this?

Travellers from the Calder Valley, Halifax, and East Lancashire will have great access to multiple entry points in the WYCA Mass transit system, whereupon they can actually get to where they need to be within that region. It's not insanity to suggest that the MCV-LDS service be split at all.

MCV-LDS is a two-way commuter route with MCV and LDS as the clear and obvious main destinations. Splitting it ignores where passengers want to travel to.

 

[WestRiding]

A little FB update from the Stocksbridge MP, if anyone is interested.

*HS2 and local rail links*

Yesterday's Integrated Rail Plan announcement is great news for Sheffield and South Yorkshire, delivering faster journeys and improved connectivity more than a decade earlier than the original HS2 plan.

The Plan includes:
• Full electrification of the existing mainline down to London, with work starting by the end of 2021
• HS2 trains connecting Sheffield to Birmingham and London
• 30-minute reduction in the journey time between Sheffield and London - exactly the same as under the original HS2 plan
• A plan to halve the journey time between Sheffield and Leeds
• An extra fast train between Sheffield and Manchester every hour as part of the upgrade to the Hope Valley Line.

What this means is that Sheffield will see exactly the same benefits as the original HS2 plan, but delivered more quickly, more cheaply, and without the need to build an entirely new line into the city.

Many local people have told me that what matters far more than building a brand new line to London is getting real improvements to their local journeys here in South Yorkshire.

That's why I've submitted a bid for £48million to upgrade the Penistone Line between Barnsley and Huddersfield, and why I was so thrilled that the Chancellor has awarded us £50,000 to develop the proposal to bring passenger trains back to the existing line between Stocksbridge and Sheffield.

This Integrated Rail Plan delivers exactly what we need - faster journeys and better connectivity, but without the cost and delay of HS2.

You can read more about my work to improve public transport, including why I changed my mind earlier this year about HS2, on my website: https://www.miriamcates.org.uk/campaigns/public-transport-works

 

[domcoop7]

So some trains terminate at Interchange, some continue through, some are replaced by a tram-train. What are you trying to achieve by this?


MCV-LDS is a two-way commuter route with MCV and LDS as the clear and obvious main destinations. Splitting it ignores where passengers want to travel to.

When we're building Thameslinks and Crossrails in London, to join up commuter and suburban areas, it does seem like an odd suggestion to Balkanize and separate these services where they already exist in the North.

 

[Austriantrain]

Ok I will cite Dublin, Paris, Milan, Barcelona, all big cities with more than one termini and not all journeys have a metro line to continue on from there.

I didn’t dispute that. What I said is that it wouldn’t typically be built like this anymore from scratch elsewhere. It would rather be done like in Antwerp, or in Zurich, etc

In this, Birmingham does stand out. I am aware of the reasons and don’t dispute them; it’s just that I don’t think it is correct to state that the same happens everywhere else too.

 

[Starmill]

No, I'm not.

Frequency and journey time benefits are available to places on the WCML which aren't in "the North". You personally have a chip on your shoulder about Northampton and that's up to you. But you're wrong about Northampton and you're more wrong about other places, including Tring, Bletchley Milton Keynes Central, Rugby and more.

 

[quantinghome]

A little FB update from the Stocksbridge MP, if anyone is interested.

*HS2 and local rail links*

[snip]

• A plan to halve the journey time between Sheffield and Leeds

[snip]

Must have missed that...

Which journey time does she mean? The 90 minute journey or the 40 minute journey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Frequency and journey time benefits are available to places on the WCML which aren't in "the North". You personally have a chip on your shoulder about Northampton and that's up to you. But you're wrong about Northampton and you're more wrong about other places, including Tring, Bletchley Milton Keynes Central, Rugby and more.

Indeed. South WCML stations run on a roughly 2tph pattern, with the smaller stations having 2tph slow only and the bigger ones 2tph fast and 2tph slow. It isn't quite that (e.g. Bletchley only has 1tph fast) but it's roughly that. Post HS2 these services are to increase massively, with a more Merseyrail like frequency.

Indeed, this is the main business case for HS2, not getting to Brum/Manc a bit quicker. Though I think with reduced commuting the emphasis is shifting a bit.

HS2 goes nowhere near Bletchley, for instance, but it will benefit massively.

 

[Starmill]

It's already taken more than 25 years to not build. Given that it has to go through all the stages of conceptual development, route selction, design, finding funding, being cut back to save money, public inquiries etc it will probably take another 40. There are few convenient off-road or former-rail alignments available.

Even the most expedited process possible, with a higher than usual spend on study and design, and a government prioritising it over other projects, it will still be a couple of years worth of study, plus perhaps three or four years to complete design and gain consents, then the same again to construct. If this project could open in 2030 I would be surprised.

 

[stephen rp]

Leeds capacity enhancements are in the project scope. Four tracking is unlikely to be a requirement, but more platforms are likely. A lot will come down to resignalling I suspect.

Yes.

XC services will likely be split by all accounts. There likely won't be an east coast Edinburgh to Birmingham service (but there will be one starting at Newcastle), with a Moor Street to the South West connection. TPE's services that don't end up on NPR will continue to use the existing infrastructure. Neither TOC will exist in 2040, and the service provision will be taken into consideration with the other former TOCs in a GBR world. As we all know, most people don't travel end to end on these services anyway.

140mph "does" very little. Improving some of the slowest sections of the ECML does. It is the functional equivalent of the WCRM but on the ECML.

We shall see what happens in the GBR way of doing things, but this seems likely. The HS2/WCML contract likely won't be responsible for NPR services as you say, so most likely the TPE service contract will cover it. That's only a geographic extension to Curzon Street, so I don't see an issue there.

"Five towns" and Calder Valley locals are the easy targets for having their heavy rail services transferred to tram/tram-train.

You have to have a very high frequency to replace 6 heavy rail coaches with trams (see Metrolink from Bury and Altrincham to Manchester).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have to have a very high frequency to replace 6 heavy rail coaches with trams (see Metrolink from Bury and Altrincham to Manchester).

Only if you have really short trams like Manchester does. Most other UK trams are much longer.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. South WCML stations run on a roughly 2tph pattern, with the smaller stations having 2tph slow only and the bigger ones 2tph fast and 2tph slow. It isn't quite that (e.g. Bletchley only has 1tph fast) but it's roughly that. Post HS2 these services are to increase massively, with a more Merseyrail like frequency.

Arguably even the Bakerloo line benefits because Wembley Central can have slow line services all day and a frequent peak service, so the DC line is relieved.

 

[Roast Veg]

So some trains terminate at Interchange, some continue through, some are replaced by a tram-train. What are you trying to achieve by this?

I make it an "easy" 1tph extra capacity at Leeds. Don't you?

MCV-LDS is a two-way commuter route with MCV and LDS as the clear and obvious main destinations. Splitting it ignores where passengers want to travel to.

MCV-Bradford Interchange (BDI) is unaffected.

All passengers heading to MCV from Bramley and New Pudsey will have fast and frequent access to BDI.

Passengers from Rochdale, Littleborough, Todmorden, and Hebden Bridge will have fast and frequent access to Leeds via BDI with or without a change to a mass transit system that can offer them destinations beyond Leeds main station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arguably even the Bakerloo line benefits because Wembley Central can have slow line services all day and a frequent peak service, so the DC line is relieved.

That too. The biggest benefits of HS2 are found not on HS2 itself, but on the congested south WCML.

 

[stephen rp]

Well, in the cold light of morning, there are two main questions. Why was whoever was doing the IRP not discussing any of this with "stakeholders" rather than now expecting all sorts of new work on feasibility? And should the IRP not be in a "speculative" category?

 

[Starmill]

Must have missed that...

Which journey time does she mean? The 90 minute journey or the 40 minute journey?

Have they been accidentally briefed on the Leeds - Clayton plan that isn't being taken forward?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Have they been accidentally briefed on the Leeds - Clayton plan that isn't being taken forward?

I have asked Ms Cates to show me the plan. I will report back when I receive it.

 

[Starmill]

I have asked Ms Cates to show me the plan. I will report back when I receive it.

That sounds like a good idea!!

 

[JKF]

How are proposed Sheffield-London times improving by the same amount as under the full HS2 plans? That can’t be true. Neither is the claim of it happening ten years earlier. Are they just lying, or am I reading the proposals and timescale wrong?

 

[Starmill]

How are proposed Sheffield-London times improving by the same amount as under the full HS2 plans? That can’t be true. Neither is the claim of it happening ten years earlier. Are they just lying, or am I reading the proposals and timescale wrong?

Several people have already pointed out that this is highly doubtful. However, in theory, a train running non-stop between London Euston and Sheffield via Birmingham Interchange may be able to make the proposed times. Of course, this assumes that there will be electrification via Toton which is not yet clear, and also that Chesterfield and East Midlands Parkway won't be served on that train which again seems undesirable. Many people have concluded that the numbers are being massaged.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

How are proposed Sheffield-London times improving by the same amount as under the full HS2 plans? That can’t be true. Neither is the claim of it happening ten years earlier. Are they just lying, or am I reading the proposals and timescale wrong?

30 mins to Derby (current best atm), 57 from Derby to London.

 

[stephen rp]

Only if you have really short trams like Manchester does. Most other UK trams are much longer.

2 of the old MSJA 3-car sets could seat 554 people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2 of the old MSJA 3-car sets could seat 554 people.

Though to be fair with very little standing and no accessibility features whatsoever. You need to compare modern stock (and take into account that the newer Metrolink trams are designed as "standee trams" with relatively few seats - the old T68s had far more).

 

[Peterthegreat]

Several people have already pointed out that this is highly doubtful. However, in theory, a train running non-stop between London Euston and Sheffield via Birmingham Interchange may be able to make the proposed times. Of course, this assumes that there will be electrification via Toton which is not yet clear, and also that Chesterfield and East Midlands Parkway won't be served on that train which again seems undesirable. Many people have concluded that the numbers are being massaged.

Since there is no electrification shown for the Erewash then Sheffield trains will need to run via Derby from East Midlands Parkway (assuming that is where HS2 east will end). Current time from EMD (pass) to Sheffield is 41.5 minutes inclusive of a two minute stop at Derby, one minute at Chesterfield, 2 minutes recovery and 1 minute pathing. If these were removed it would just about be possible to meet the previously quoted journey ties. Just about.

 

[Western Sunset]

Were the timings quoted for the original HS2 from the Sheffield stop outside the city? Maybe they've taken off the city centre to HS2 stop times in their calculations.

 

[BayPaul]

Since there is no electrification shown for the Erewash then Sheffield trains will need to run via Derby from East Midlands Parkway (assuming that is where HS2 east will end). Current time from EMD (pass) to Sheffield is 41.5 minutes inclusive of a two minute stop at Derby, one minute at Chesterfield, 2 minutes recovery and 1 minute pathing. If these were removed it would just about be possible to meet the previously quoted journey ties. Just about.

Presumably, there's also a bit of speed benefit from electrification, and I think the plan also mentions improvements from Dore to Sheffield.

 

[irish_rail]

As they were announcing a plan for the North and Midlands today that is hardly surprising.

Although politically he has covered bis backside in that the announcement today includes diverting Plymouth to Birmingham Cross Country services to Snow Hill via Moor Street giving much faster NE-SW journey times, albeit with a change at Moor/Curzon St.

Sorry , without reading in detail I hadn't realised this! So will all XC services to the south west now terminate or commence at Birmingham Snow Hill???!! Surely not??!!!

 

[Peterthegreat]

Presumably, there's also a bit of speed benefit from electrification, and I think the plan also mentions improvements from Dore to Sheffield.

Yes I would assume so on both counts.

 

[Ianno87]

Sorry , without reading in detail I hadn't realised this! So will all XC services to the south west now terminate or commence at Birmingham Snow Hill???!! Surely not??!!!

Tempted to suggest it is a politician (badly) trying to think their feet rather than necessarily a well thought-through policy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh right so it benefits a few dormitory towns between London and Birmingham like Milton Keynes, how on earth is that comparable with the lavish spending on the north? The vast vast vast majority of the south gets absolutely nothing from HS2.

And nor are they intended to, as they've had other investment.

It's a South WCML Bypass. That's what it's mostly intended for.