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Transport for the North - NPR funding stopped

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quantinghome

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The DfT has removed NPR from Transport for the North, which will now be developed by the DfT. Looks like a classic Whitehall powergrab.

In a letter sent the day after the government’s rail review was published, David Hughes, the director general of the rail infrastructure group that is overseen by the Department for Transport, told Tugwell that it would stop paying TfN to develop NPR.

“This work will instead be funded within the normal arrangements for the rail network enhancement portfolio, directly by the department,” he wrote.

The shadow transport secretary, Jim McMahon, said: “It’s a massive Whitehall power grab. When George Osborne set out plans for Northern Powerhouse Rail and signed the first devolution agreement with Greater Manchester in 2014, I was the leader of Oldham council and I believed in it, even if it was a Tory government, because it was far better that we control our own destiny rather than be beholden to Whitehall, which would always put us second best.

“I just feel like we’ve gone backwards. The complete architecture that’s meant to support devolution has been dismantled.”

Labour attacks ‘Whitehall power grab’ over northern rail policy | Transport policy | The Guardian
 
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Dr Hoo

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Isn't this an inevitable consequence of the Integrated Rail Plan? The last seven years have demonstrated that trying to develop HS2 (nationally) separately from NPR (by TfN) wasn't really working - most obviously around Manchester.
 

Roast Veg

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TfN also no longer have to pay for the scheme, which is a win for the scheme but a loss for TfN. I'd like to see TfN use their resources to begin developing important extensions to the IRP core, such as Hull, Leeds-Sheffield, and local connecting transport.
 

Peterthegreat

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To my mind TfN have concentrated too much on potential "high" speed expensive projects and have completely neglected their day job in improving the life of the daily user trying to get into the big cities.
 

Bletchleyite

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To my mind TfN have concentrated too much on potential "high" speed expensive projects and have completely neglected their day job in improving the life of the daily user trying to get into the big cities.

That's more the role of the PTEs, or whatever they are called these days (ITAs?)

I'm not sure what the purpose of TfN is, really, other than a political lobby organisation.
 

quantinghome

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To my mind TfN have concentrated too much on potential "high" speed expensive projects and have completely neglected their day job in improving the life of the daily user trying to get into the big cities.
TfN were trying to get an integrated e-ticketing system running, but guess what? Funding got pulled.
 

Peterthegreat

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That's more the role of the PTEs, or whatever they are called these days (ITAs?)

I'm not sure what the purpose of TfN is, really, other than a political lobby organisation.
Nope. South Yorkshire PTE are no longer co-signatories to the Northern Franchise. Responsibility was transferred to TfN. And it shows. I assume it also applies to Manchester, West Yorkshire and Tyne and Wear.
 

Roast Veg

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TfN were trying to get an integrated e-ticketing system running, but guess what? Funding got pulled.
Though contactless ticketing in the "urban areas" (think oyster) is provided for in the IRP. Not one single continuous etickting system, mind.
 

class 9

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TfN is just an expensive talking shop, with no decision making powers, wouldn't even be noticed if abolished.
 

Roast Veg

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I'd either abolish it or merge it into one mega-PTE. The extra layer is valueless.
I don't think the PTE model works all that well for transport without a single "hub" at its core. The WYCA would effectively lose a lot to Manchester.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think the PTE model works all that well for transport without a single "hub" at its core. The WYCA would effectively lose a lot to Manchester.

I'd sort of agree (tending towards abolishing TfN), but then again the Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr seems to survive as a multi-centric German equivalent for the Ruhr cities.
 

Ianno87

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Strikes me as sensible - if the 'West of the Pennines' solution is to be delivered in a coherent manner, one single guiding mind (whichever organisation it is) strikes me as the way to go.
 

Bertie the bus

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TfN were trying to get an integrated e-ticketing system running, but guess what? Funding got pulled.
How sad. That would have really improved services. I don't know what this obsession with replacing card tickets is. People have happily travelled on trains for nearly 200 years using a bit of card but now that is so inconvenient tens or hundreds of millions of pounds has to be spent so we can have one on a mobile phone.
 

quantinghome

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How sad. That would have really improved services. I don't know what this obsession with replacing card tickets is. People have happily travelled on trains for nearly 200 years using a bit of card but now that is so inconvenient tens or hundreds of millions of pounds has to be spent so we can have one on a mobile phone.
It's more that you can jump on a train or a bus or a tram, wave your phone or card over a scanner and know that you're not going to exceed a daily or weekly cap - like Oyster in London. It's about integration, not whether it's easier using a bit of card or your phone.

TfN is just an expensive talking shop, with no decision making powers, wouldn't even be noticed if abolished.
It was always held on a tight leash by Whitehall. Yet even a significantly compromised body with limited room for manoeuvre still gave the north a voice. But even that was too much for the Treasury and DfT to cope with. So it had to go.
 
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Roast Veg

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It was always held on a tight leash by Whitehall. Yet even a significantly compromised body with limited room for manoeuvre still gave the north a voice. But even that was too much for the Treasury and DfT to cope with. So it had to go.
It isn't gone, just its flagship project. On to the next!
 

HSTEd

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To my mind TfN have concentrated too much on potential "high" speed expensive projects and have completely neglected their day job in improving the life of the daily user trying to get into the big cities.
TfNs set of projects was pretty clearly motivated by empire building by the mayors.

Projects that didn't fit their desire for massive TfL transport empires were eliminated.
 

domcoop7

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TfN was a nice idea in practice. I think the rot set in when the elected mayors came on the scene, though, as it's clear they aren't going to be as amenable to deferring to a regional body in the way Cheshire East Council's leader would, for example. Which, as has been said above with "empire building" by the mayors is going to lead to a lack of focus.

And now that it seems to be that there's an established path for a regional mayor to become leader of a party and then Prime Minister (i.e. Boris Johnson, and clearly in the future it is the intention of Andy Burnham), there's a tendency to use everything as an opportunity to showboat and get media coverage, as opposed to do anything.

It was supposed to - in effect - take the role of the Department for Transport in the North. So hand out funding, oversee (and possibly even control) Trunk Roads, monitor the franchise agreements, etc.

Legally it has only existed since 2018, but the organisation was created in a "shadow" form in 2015 and was given a budget then.

In terms of Northern Powerhouse Rail / HS3, it was a mistake in the first place to give this to a regional body. Indeed there is disquiet in the government that nationally important strategic transport is outside their control in the devolved governments of Wales, Scotland and NI as is, so the idea of handing over something of this importance to the country to be controlled by Metro Mayors is unsurprisingly something they'd want to re-consider.

Meanwhile, whilst TfN were to take control of the Trunk Road network, the Metro Mayors themselves want to take control. Likewise the ticketing scheme. TfN is supposed to be implementing a ticketing scheme for the whole North of England, but the Metro Mayors aren't interested as they all have their own ideas and legacy historical ticket schemes.

Again, if you were the government, would you keep throwing money endlessly at a talking shop that is no closer to a ticketing scheme now in 2021 than it was in 2015, despite having had millions handed to it each year since then (£9 million in 2020/21 alone)?

The problem, in my view, is that George Osborne (who was the leading light in setting up), despite being an MP for a North of England constituency, didn't have the first clue about the region. He is on record as saying words to the effect of "TfL in London has Oyster cards and is making plans for Crossrail, so we'll set up TfN and they'll do the same in the North". But "the North" is not a homogeneous entity. (And when he said "the North", he really meant Liverpool-Manchester-Bradford-Leeds-Sheffield-Doncaster").

What I would do is as suggested by @Bletchleyite - make it a PTE, or more precisely, I'd make it a PTA. And remove the overall planning functions of the smaller transport areas in both City Regions and County Councils.

The local authorities and city regions would still get a say and sit on the committees (just as district councils get representation in Combined Authority areas, and councillors themselves sit on the transport committee in the County Councils).

The Combined Authorities would become the executive delivery arms in their areas (i.e. what the PTE used to do), and in the shire county areas, the new authority can set up a delivery arm if it wishes (or needs to), or expand the areas of the Combined Authority delivery arms.

So in my plan, for example, "where do we want a new road", "should we fund re-opening this line", "should we open this station", "this is what ticketing zones we're going to have" would be for Transport for the North to decide.

"We need to clean these bus-stops", "we're letting a tender for the number 30 to go round the Westside Estate" or (in Greater Manchester) "we're monitoring the performance of Go North West in their four year franchise for Bolton bus routes" would be handled by e.g. Merseytravel, or Bee Network, or Transport for North Yorkshire as local delivery arms.
 

Starmill

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Given the government have decided to reject the majority of the plan as proposed by TfN, there wasn't really much choice was there.

How sad. That would have really improved services. I don't know what this obsession with replacing card tickets is. People have happily travelled on trains for nearly 200 years using a bit of card but now that is so inconvenient tens or hundreds of millions of pounds has to be spent so we can have one on a mobile phone.
The money has been committed again. Almost £300 million worth.
 

YorksLad12

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Nope. South Yorkshire PTE are no longer co-signatories to the Northern Franchise. Responsibility was transferred to TfN. And it shows. I assume it also applies to Manchester, West Yorkshire and Tyne and Wear.
They never were; Rail North Ltd., owned by 25 local transport authorities, was the co-signatory of the Northern and TransPennine franchises. RNL was absorbed and its functions taken over by TfN. From memory, Derby/Derbyshire, Nottingham/Nottinghamshire, Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire were the six RNL members who are not part of TfN.
 

Starmill

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TfN is just an expensive talking shop, with no decision making powers, wouldn't even be noticed if abolished.
Technically they're on the Rail North Partnership which manages the Northern and TransPennine Express contracts.
 

Peterthegreat

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They never were; Rail North Ltd., owned by 25 local transport authorities, was the co-signatory of the Northern and TransPennine franchises. RNL was absorbed and its functions taken over by TfN. From memory, Derby/Derbyshire, Nottingham/Nottinghamshire, Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire were the six RNL members who are not part of TfN.
Not true. The PTEs WERE co signatories to previous franchise agreements.
House of Commons - Transport - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence (parliament.uk)
 

YorksLad12

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Not true. The PTEs WERE co signatories to previous franchise agreements.
House of Commons - Transport - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence (parliament.uk)
That report's from 2002. Since then the franchises have been let twice. The last time, they were co-signed by Rail North Ltd., now part of TfN. When you wrote:
Nope. South Yorkshire PTE are no longer co-signatories to the Northern Franchise. Responsibility was transferred to TfN. And it shows. I assume it also applies to Manchester, West Yorkshire and Tyne and Wear.
you are correct - but you missed a step between "PTEs are co-signatories" and "TfN are responsible".
 

matacaster

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The main issue was Tfn could dream up enormously expensive plans which they didn't have to pay for.

There is no direct route which embraces all of the cities and towns in Yorkshire. Trying to accommodate Bradford which is not even in a straight line from Leeds to Huddersfield and has awful topography for a railway was always pie in the sky - if you haven't been to Bradford you might not appreciate that.

Sheffield insisted on a central station which was at variance to everyone else who wanted meadowhall.

As Tfn was dominated by labour types and the govt is tory, they were encouraged to set ambition beyond the plausible - that way they could always bash the government whatever the outcome.
 
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Peterthegreat

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That report's from 2002. Since then the franchises have been let twice. The last time, they were co-signed by Rail North Ltd., now part of TfN. When you wrote:

you are correct - but you missed a step between "PTEs are co-signatories" and "TfN are responsible".
You said PTEs were NEVER co-signatories. I pointed out they used to be. I didn't mention any timescales.
 
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