Avanti West Coast gave me a £142.10 fine.

[kxsp1968]

Dear sirs.

I am wondering if anyone can help with this matter.

About two weeks ago or so towards the beginning of the month i travelled from London Euston to Watford Junction in the morning and then went back again in the evening. I had purchased a Anytime Return ticket for £19.10 total. My journey there on London North Eastern Railway was fine with no problems at all but my journey back was extremely problematic.

So i went in to the station and as i was going through i asked the barrier man what platform i need for the train to London Euston and he told me i needed platform 7 so that is where i went. I can not remember the exact time but i think it was at about 18:30 or 18:45 or 19:00 or at some time around then. I got to platform 7 and just a few minutes later an Arriva West Coast train arrived and i boarded it and took a seat.

About a minute or two after leaving the ticket man came through and went straight to me ignoring everyone else and asked to see my ticket and then told me he saw me boarding the train and that i was not allowed to board the train at Watford Junction as the train did not stop for passengers to get on. He said something about how i was supposed to wait for the second train. I am still confused what he meant by this as surely in that case the doors should have remained locked and not been released. Plus i saw other people alighting from the train. So why did the train stop if you were not supposed to board. Surely at a red signal the doors are supposed to be locked. Plus there was no announcement telling people not to board on the platform.

But anyway he then told me since i was not suppose to board the train my ticket is not valid and i have to pay £142.10 because of this. I thought he was joking when he mentioned that price. I initially refused and politely told him i had done nothing wrong as i just went to the platform that the barrier man told me to go to and got on the train. So i refused to pay. But he then got rather angry and threatened he was going to get the police to meet the train at London Euston if i did not pay and told me if the police get involved i could get a criminal record for fare evasion.

So eventually i gave in and paid the £142.10 fine. He then printed a ticket which i presume is my receipt and gave it to me and left me alone and we shortly arrived in to London Euston where i alighted. When i got home and looked at the ticket that he gave to me i am even more confused as it is a ticket from Crewe to London Euston but i never went to Crewe or anywhere near there. I had thought the £142.10 was my fine so i do not know why he printed me a ticket from Crewe to London Euston instead of a receipt for my fine. I am wondering if he accidentally printed a ticket instead of a receipt.

So i have a few questions.

Firstly what exactly did i do wrong and what did the ticket man mean when he said i was not allowed to board the train?

Secondly what on earth does that ticket from Crewe to London Euston have to do with this seeing as i went nowhere near?

Thirdly and most importantly did i actually do something wrong here and my £19.10 Anytime Return was not valid and i should not have boarded the train or was the ticket man wrong and i can get that £142.10 refunded?

Obviously £142.10 is a huge amount of money and i work on a low wage job so i am really not happy with this and if there is any way to get it refunded from Arriva West Coast that would be great to know.

Please advise the best way to proceed with either getting a refund or making a complaint about my fine.

Thank you for any help you can give.

 

[Class800]

Sounds like it was a set-down only stop - although if you can provide the exact train time we can check on a database to check whether the stop was restricted. The £142.10 sounds like it was an anytime single from the last station at which the train called for pick up to London Euston. To check whether the amount was right, we would need to know the exact train so we can check what the preceding stop was. Set down only southbound at Watford Junction is quite common on long distance services.

 

[Whistler40145]

Without being sarcastic, Avanti run the West Coast services and not Arriva

 

[Haywain]

My journey there on London North Eastern Railway was fine

I suspect you mean London Northwestern Railway.

However, it appears that you boarded a train which called at Watford junction to set down passengers only, which many Avanti train do on the way to London. In the circumstances your ticket was not valid and you were charged for a ticket from the last calling point where passengers could board, which was almost certainly Crewe, as this would be a ticket valid for being on that train. The price level is because you boarded without a valid ticket and therefore the highest priced single is charged as a punitive measure. Others may differ, but your only recourse may be to complain to Avanti an hope they choose to reimburse you at least part of what you paid.

 

[AlterEgo]

Firstly what exactly did i do wrong and what did the ticket man mean when he said i was not allowed to board the train?

You are not allowed to board the train, literally. Watford Junction is a set down only stop going south into London on Avanti West Coast. It is not advertised as a passenger stop and the information screens say "DO NOT BOARD" usually coupled with announcements.

Secondly what on earth does that ticket from Crewe to London Euston have to do with this seeing as i went nowhere near?

When boarding or alighting from a service in this way - when it is not permitted - you will be charged from the previous stop the train called at, the cheapest "appropriate fare" for the trip. In this case it would be Crewe. (I personally am not entirely happy the NRCoT does permit this, but it is custom and it's where we are - would appreciate any counterpoint to this...)

Thirdly and most importantly did i actually do something wrong here and my £19.10 Anytime Return was not valid and i should not have boarded the train or was the ticket man wrong and i can get that £142.10 refunded?

The train manager is, as far as I can tell, right and you are wrong.

Obviously £142.10 is a huge amount of money and i work on a low wage job so i am really not happy with this and if there is any way to get it refunded from Arriva West Coast that would be great to know.

Please advise the best way to proceed with either getting a refund or making a complaint about my fine.

You were not fined but rather charged for a journey. However, I agree it is a steep price to pay for your mistake. I'd recommend writing to them via email including your tickets and ask for a gesture of goodwill. Post a draft up here and we'll take a look.

Thank you for any help you can give.

 

[eljajo95]

I would be seriously considering writing to my local paper, and my MP. It may be right in law but this outcome is manifestly outrageous!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Assuming that the timetable was the same then as it is today (and today is two days before Christmas, so it may well be that things are different now from when you travelled) you might want to have a look at page 18 of https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/-/media/avanti-timetables/20-to-23-december-public.pdf. This shows a train running from Manchester (departs 1655) calling at Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe (arrive 1727, depart 1729), Watford (1848) and Euston (arrives 1905). But for Watford what it says is '18s48', and the note at the bottom of the timetable says 's - stops to set down only'.

What all this means is that people on the train are allowed to get off at Watford - but people on the platform aren't allowed to join it. When you did join the train, you were charged the fare from the last place that you were allowed to join it. What you have been charged is the anytime single of £142.10: you can see details of all the different fares from Crewe to Euston at https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CRE&dest=EUS.

So do you have any right to get this fare back from Avanti? Sadly, I think the answer is 'no': the railways expect their passengers to understand what happens on the trains, so they are not obliged to refund you.

But while you have no right to any money back, I do think that it might be worth contacting Avanti and politely asking if they would consider paying the money back. There's a couple of reasons for this:
- you were following the directions you were given to go to platform 7. From what you have said, the train you wanted probably followed the one you actually got on, but this wasn't made clear to you. Essentially, you were following the railway's instructions so it's not your fault that you made a mistake (although I should add that the departure boards on the platform probably told you not to join the train: in an ideal world you would have looked at those and followed their instructions)
- if you look at the fares available, you will see that there is an 'Off-peak S' (i.e. an off-peak single) ticket available from Crewe to Euston for £60.20. As far as I can make out there's no reason why that ticket would not have been valid on the train you used (I'm happy to be corrected by people who know better) so it might be worth asking why the ticket man didn't sell you this ticket.

As others have said, strictly you were in the wrong. So you need to write very politely, and accept that you made a mistake. But you have nothing to lose by asking if Avanti will consider a refund.

 

[WesternLancer]

I would be seriously considering writing to my local paper, and my MP. It may be right in law but this outcome is manifestly outrageous!

Writing to the local paper is probably a waste of time (they mainly exist to sell papers not obtain financial redress for such things) - but I would consider enlisting my MP in a letter of complaint to Avanti west coast seeking a goodwill payment for what was clearly an honest mistake made by the OP

OP - the policy is designed, I assume, to prevent passengers using the very fast trains run by Avanti from filling seats with short distance commuters going to and from London to Watford so they commonly have a restriction such as 'stops to pick up only' going north and 'stops to set down only' going south (so that a person travelling from say Watford to Manchester can make that trip without having to go 1st south to Euston before heading north to Manchester). I believe the same applies to certain other equivalent stations a relatively short distance form London on other routes (if not I think it once did anyway)

Not that you would have had to consult one but this is usually made clear with a symbol and footnote in the paper (now pdf) timetable
as shown here - see the 'u' or the 's' next to the time of trains stopping at Watford Jct
and see the key for example on page 38

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/-/media/avanti-timetables/scheduled-timetable-book-21-dec-to-22-may.pdf

Still, you have my sympathy - I would have hoped that you would have got ticked off by the staff and that would have been the end of it - but I don't know what instructions management will have given them on how to deal with such matters. Plus I suspect that due to this policy avanti receive no money from the ticket you had bought since they do not carry passengers from Watford Jct to Euston, which may be part of their reasoning if such charges are their course of action.

I would certainly write to them and ask for a gesture of good will, if that fails, write to your MP and ask them to raise it and see what happens. Worth a try / cost of a stamp / e-mail IMHO.

PS

He said something about how i was supposed to wait for the second train. I am still confused what he meant by this

What he meant by that was that you were supposed to wait on the platform until the second train arrived and get on that, as I assume that would be a train run by London North Western Railway on which the ticket you had would have been valid to use to get to Euston.

 

[py_megapixel]

There's a bit of the story which people seem not to be picking up on here, which is that OP asked which platform they should go to for the Euston train, and the gateline attendent said platform 7. It sounds like OP then walked to platform 7 and then when a train came in - which would prominently have said London Euston on displays on the sides of the carriages - they boarded it.

I fail to see what alternative course of action could have avoided this eventuality, given the knowledge OP had, and the information provided to them by staff.

While technically the OP has broken the rules, they arguably did so on the advice of staff at Watford Junction, so I am not convinced the way the train manager acted was reasonable.

 

[Haywain]

There's a bit of the story which people seem not to be picking up on here, which is that OP asked which platform they should go to for the Euston train, and the gateline attendent said platform 7. It sounds like OP then walked to platform 7 and then when a train came in - which would prominently have said London Euston on displays on the sides of the carriages - they boarded it.

I fail to see what alternative course of action could have avoided this eventuality, given the knowledge OP had, and the information provided to them by staff.

While technically the OP has broken the rules, they arguably did so on the advice of staff at Watford Junction, so I am not convinced the way the train manager acted was reasonable.

The OP was sent to the platform whether he would get a train to Euston but he wasn't told to board the first train that turned up. Normally, in circumstances such as this one would expect the platform displays to say something along the lines of "Do not board" or "Not for public service" and for there to be announcements not to board the train.

 

[WesternLancer]

There's a bit of the story which people seem not to be picking up on here, which is that OP asked which platform they should go to for the Euston train, and the gateline attendent said platform 7. It sounds like OP then walked to platform 7 and then when a train came in - which would prominently have said London Euston on displays on the sides of the carriages - they boarded it.

I fail to see what alternative course of action could have avoided this eventuality, given the knowledge OP had, and the information provided to them by staff.

While technically the OP has broken the rules, they arguably did so on the advice of staff at Watford Junction, so I am not convinced the way the train manager acted was reasonable.

I agree. And @Fawkes Cat makes this point in a v helpful post above. This should be the nub of the point made by the OP when they write to Avanti about all this. Of course the train manager can not know what was said by station staff and thus these confusions arise, no doubt regularly.

@kxsp1968 - if it helps this is where / who you need to contact - good luck - as said above, post your draft message here and people will check it to help the chances of successful outcome.

Contact Avanti West Coast | Avanti West Coast

Whether you've got a question about your journey, a complaint about our service, or just want to get in touch, here’s Avanti West Coast's contact details.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Complaints | Avanti West Coast

Avanti West Coast takes every complaint seriously and we try to respond as quickly and effectively as we can. Read more about our complaints policy here.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

 

[Class800]

There's a bit of the story which people seem not to be picking up on here, which is that OP asked which platform they should go to for the Euston train, and the gateline attendent said platform 7. It sounds like OP then walked to platform 7 and then when a train came in - which would prominently have said London Euston on displays on the sides of the carriages - they boarded it.

I fail to see what alternative course of action could have avoided this eventuality, given the knowledge OP had, and the information provided to them by staff.

While technically the OP has broken the rules, they arguably did so on the advice of staff at Watford Junction, so I am not convinced the way the train manager acted was reasonable.

The instruction implies that platform 7 is the platform for the next Euston service, not necessarily that the OP should get the next train that comes in. As stated above I am against set down and pick up restrictions, but think that TOCs if using set down only stops should switch off the destination indicators on the train while it is in this station, so they cannot be seen from the platform. But if it is not mandated, it may be difficult to use as a basis for complaint. A key aspect would be what did the platform screens say - did they say do not board or was the train advertised as the train to Euston

 

[py_megapixel]

The OP was sent to the platform whether he would get a train to Euston but he wasn't told to board the first train that turned up. Normally, in circumstances such as this one would expect the platform displays to say something along the lines of "Do not board" or "Not for public service" and for there to be announcements not to board the train.

But equally the on-train displays would have said "London Euston", the doors would have been released and the train would clearly already have had passengers on it.
Basically, the railway provided OP with conflicting information, leaving them to take a guess at what to believe, and they have now been penalised for guessing incorrectly.

 

[Haywain]

But equally the on-train displays would have said "London Euston", the doors would have been released and the train would clearly already have had passengers on it.

When I have observed trains calling at a station where they are not advertised, the CIS displays do not indicate the destination of the train, simply saying something like 'Stand clear'.

 

[py_megapixel]

When I have observed trains calling at a station where they are not advertised, the CIS displays do not indicate the destination of the train, simply saying something like 'Stand clear'.

If that's the case then I think it is reasonable to expect people not to board, but I'm not certain that's the case for Pendolinos. Can anyone confirm either way?

 

[AlterEgo]

There's a bit of the story which people seem not to be picking up on here, which is that OP asked which platform they should go to for the Euston train, and the gateline attendent said platform 7. It sounds like OP then walked to platform 7 and then when a train came in - which would prominently have said London Euston on displays on the sides of the carriages - they boarded it.

I fail to see what alternative course of action could have avoided this eventuality, given the knowledge OP had, and the information provided to them by staff.

While technically the OP has broken the rules, they arguably did so on the advice of staff at Watford Junction, so I am not convinced the way the train manager acted was reasonable.

There are (usually) very prominent announcements at Watford Junction and there is always a DO NOT BOARD sign on display on the info screens.

 

[WesternLancer]

If that's the case then I think it is reasonable to expect people not to board, but I'm not certain that's the case for Pendolinos. Can anyone confirm either way?

I suspect Haywain means the CIS screen on the platform, not on the train itself. But of course this can be confusing as when a train is stopped, sat in front of you, your eye may well be drawn to info on the train, not on the platform display screens etc. Even audible announcements saying ' do not board this train' on the platform are not always going to be the passengers 1st instinct on what to do - as their first instinct is 'I want to get to Euston and here is a train going my way stood in front of me with the door open' - when you hold an Anytime ticket you may also think that you can travel on any train at anytime.

There is no easy solution, unless there is some penalty people will do it when they are not supposed to, knowing the rules full well - but in the absence of a special penalty that is somewhat less than eg £142 what are the staff supposed to do.

A suitable compromise might at least be to have charged the off peak Crewe fare as this would still be quite a penalty -and this could form part of the good will ask to Avanti perhaps.

 

[Snow1964]

There's a bit of the story which people seem not to be picking up on here, which is that OP asked which platform they should go to for the Euston train, and the gateline attendent said platform 7. It sounds like OP then walked to platform 7 and then when a train came in - which would prominently have said London Euston on displays on the sides of the carriages - they boarded it.

I fail to see what alternative course of action could have avoided this eventuality, given the knowledge OP had, and the information provided to them by staff.

While technically the OP has broken the rules, they arguably did so on the advice of staff at Watford Junction, so I am not convinced the way the train manager acted was reasonable.

More confusing is not only did a railway employee advise going to platform 7, but the train manager saw Op board it, but didn’t choose to advise until after doors closed.

There is also a problem if a destination of Euston was displayed externally on the train destination displays instead of do not board, there are laws regarding advertising goods and services, and this one sounds like it was advertising available to use, and an anytime ticket should be available on any advertised service.

Quite clearly the train manager should be more careful about what the trains destination displays are advising passengers on a platform adjacent to open door, and not start with assumption passenger needs a ticket for journey they haven’t done.

Again, at WFJ, the trains are very prominently described on the screens as “DO NOT BOARD” and there are announcements to the same effect. The OP’s is not a common mistake to make.

I think most people on this forum will have been at a station on at least one occasion where the display is inconsistent with actual service in the platform.

I think most users of a station unfamiliar to them will take the instructions of a railway staff member in uniform as overriding any screens so what the screens showed were effectively instructed to be ignored

And if someone was seen boarding in error, why did someone (eg train manager) not attempt to correct the problem.

This is basically a human foul up and Avanti manager acted unreasonably even if the fare rules have provision to cover deliberate misuse of setting down services

 

[py_megapixel]

There are (usually) very prominent announcements at Watford Junction and there is always a DO NOT BOARD sign on display on the info screens.

Fair enough - not being familiar with the state of affairs at WFJ myself I was unfamiliar what would likely be there to indicate that it was set down only.

Of course we don't know 100% that the screens and speakers were working on the platform in question, but it's probably likely they were.

 

[AlterEgo]

On the point of the train manager not warning the OP, there are two possibilities. One is that they did W but were up to 11 cars away, and the other is that it’s a well known train manager on this route who has form for being Judge Dredd on every ticketing issue. It could well be the latter given the full price Anytime issued… regulars will know the name of this employee.

 

[100andthirty]

I don't usually respond to any of these posts as others are much more knowledgeable than me. However, this is an incredible way to treat a customer unless the train manager had genuine cause to believe that the OP was a serial boarder of Avanti trains. Unless the train manager had such suspicions the right approach would be to explain the situation to the customer and as the customer had a ticker, suggest the learning for the future. After all, it's not as though Avanti will lose anything as it's all funded by the government. A charge of £142 may be what the rules say, but they smell of "the customer is always wrong".

I really don't understand how a casual user of the railway when a) told to go to platform 7, and b) sees a train with London Euston clearly displayed on the side of the train would appreciate that one wasn't supposed to board. The subtlety of "set down only" would be lost on the casual customer.

 

[Class800]

I don't usually respond to any of these posts as others are much more knowledgeable than me. However, this is an incredible way to treat a customer unless the train manager had genuine cause to believe that the OP was a serial boarder of Avanti trains. Unless the train manager had such suspicions the right approach would be to explain the situation to the customer and as the customer had a ticker, suggest the learning for the future. After all, it's not as though Avanti will lose anything as it's all funded by the government. A charge of £142 may be what the rules say, but they smell of "the customer is always wrong".

I really don't understand how a casual user of the railway when a) told to go to platform 7, and b) sees a train with London Euston clearly displayed on the side of the train would appreciate that one wasn't supposed to board. The subtlety of "set down only" would be lost on the casual customer.

I would agree - in the OP's position it is difficult to know how to approach this. Maybe set out the information provided by the staff, what it said on the side of the train, what if anything it said on platform screens, a customer's viewpoint on how set down only is confusing - and ask for i) a goodwill gesture and ii) a reconsideration of the set down only rules?

 

[Western Sunset]

As the OP stated:
"About a minute or two after leaving the ticket man came through and went straight to me ignoring everyone else and asked to see my ticket and then told me he saw me boarding the train..."
Looks like this passenger was set up to fail by the "ticket man". And £142 seems to be a disproportionate amount to crack this proverbial nut.

I might be wrong, but the OP sounds as if they are rather unfamiliar with this line. They have an anytime ticket; train labelled Euston stops at the platform they were directed to. Why wouldn't they get on?

Seems an extremely harsh way to deal with a fare-paying customer.

 

[FOH]

Here's a good video. Watch at 04:30 and you can hear the announcement and briefly see the screen saying "1st DO NOT BOARD"

Video

 

[Class800]

Here's a good video. Watch at 04:30 and you can hear the announcement and briefly see the screen saying "1st DO NOT BOARD"

Video

We do not know whether the OP was presented the same information or not, so it isn't directly relevant to the OP's next steps in my view

 

[30907]

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of charging a fare at all, the TM charged an incorrect fare.
Fawkes Cat has mentioned the Offpeak Single from Crewe at £60.20.
The fare chargeable onboard when someone has an invalid ticket is the appropriate walkup fare for the journey.
That is therefore £60.20, not £142.10, and I would say that Avanti should be requested in strong terms to refund the difference.
They might also be asked to ensure that OBS are aware of the correct procedure, but I don't think that will help the OP.

 

[Western Sunset]

Can the OP get back the money he paid for the (unused) bit of his Euston - Watford Jn return?

 

[bakerstreet]

Here's a good video. Watch at 04:30 and you can hear the announcement and briefly see the screen saying "1st DO NOT BOARD"

Video

The announcement says ‘please do not board the train at platform 7. This train is not for public use. ‘

If I heard this and saw a train with many members of the public on board with the doors open and some - but not all - alighting I think I would assume this announcement was made in error.

Think of the reverse scenario. (I know not this case). In this alternate scenario, the announcement is an error. Passenger misses their booked train. Railway might say - well that announcement was obviously an error didn’t you see passengers on board!

A better announcement might be along the lines of - this train only stops here to let passengers alight. For Euston wait for the next train. If you board this train your ticket won’t be valid and you will receive a penalty fare in excess of £50.

 

[Watershed]

When boarding or alighting from a service in this way - when it is not permitted - you will be charged from the previous stop the train called at, the cheapest "appropriate fare" for the trip. In this case it would be Crewe. (I personally am not entirely happy the NRCoT does permit this, but it is custom and it's where we are - would appreciate any counterpoint to this...)

I'm not convinced that there is any lawful basis for such a charge. I fail to see how an Any Permitted ticket from Watford Junction to London Euston can be considered invalid on a train from Watford Junction to London Euston.

Certainly, passengers have no recourse to Delay Repay etc. if they are denied boarding - as the service would not be advertised in the timetable. But that doesn't invalidate their ticket.

NRCoT 13.1:

If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) [your ticket] will be valid on ... any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket.

The NRCoT do not make any mention of tickets becoming invalid through the use of a 'set down' only stop.

Therefore, Avanti should refund the OP the full amount they were charged. Of course I do not anticipate that they will necessarily pay up readily...

 

[Kite159]

The OP was sent to the platform whether he would get a train to Euston but he wasn't told to board the first train that turned up. Normally, in circumstances such as this one would expect the platform displays to say something along the lines of "Do not board" or "Not for public service" and for there to be announcements not to board the train.

Assuming the platform displays were functioning correctly with that message and wasn't broken (either being blank or displaying "Welcome to Watford Junction" at the time of the incident giving no clue that the train was set-down only.

Sounds like it's a Train Manager who dislikes passengers, what harm is there to the railways that someone should dare board a train at Watford Junction heading to London? Especially in the post Covid world where the revenue will go to the DFT.