Overnight BoJ on outward portion of Off Peak Return?

[trainophile]

It is the same price for an Off Peak Return for Chester to Llandudno as it is for Chester to Colwyn Bay.

I will be staying in Colwyn Bay for two nights, and in the interim day having a trip to Llandudno. Could I buy a CTR-LLD Off Peak Return ticket, exit at CWB for my first night's stay, then re-enter the following day for my trip to LLD? And the same in reverse at the end of my day trip? They are pretty hot on the barriers at CWB so I don't want to do anything that's not permitted.

Or do I have to have a new ticket for CWB-LLD?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chester to Llandudno is an 8A Off Peak whose restriction code prohibits break of journey in both directions. Therefore no, this is not allowed, unfortunately. You would need to buy separate tickets for each trip.

 

[trainophile]

Okay thanks. I was wondering how you're supposed to find out what the restriction code is before you've actually bought the tickets. I did look in the T&Cs but there was no detail of the code for that journey, only "unless the restriction code on your ticket prohibits it" (paraphrased, can't remember exact wording).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Okay thanks. I was wondering how you're supposed to find out what the restriction code is before you've actually bought the tickets. I did look in the T&Cs but there was no detail of the code for that journey, only "unless the restriction code on your ticket prohibits it" (paraphrased, can't remember exact wording).

This: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A works.

You could claim you weren't advised of it, I suppose.

 

[tspaul26]

It is the same price for an Off Peak Return for Chester to Llandudno as it is for Chester to Colwyn Bay.

I will be staying in Colwyn Bay for two nights, and in the interim day having a trip to Llandudno. Could I buy a CTR-LLD Off Peak Return ticket, exit at CWB for my first night's stay, then re-enter the following day for my trip to LLD? And the same in reverse at the end of my day trip? They are pretty hot on the barriers at CWB so I don't want to do anything that's not permitted.

Or do I have to have a new ticket for CWB-LLD?

(1) The outward portion is only valid on day 1 and until 4.30am on day 2.

(2) UNLESS you cannot complete your journey to Llandudno within this time in which case there is further validity until 4.30am on day 3.

(3) However, as intimated above, discretionary break of journey is not permitted in either direction with this fare.

(4) The effect of (3) is that your arrival at Colwyn Bay on day 1 must be at a time when you cannot complete the journey to Llandudno in order for you to stop over. This is unlikely.

(5) You may not break your journey at Colwyn Bay on the return portion from Llandudno.

In light of the foregoing, the following options should allow you to do what you want:

Option 1
Off Peak Return from Chester to Colwyn Bay: £21.90 [adult]
Anytime Day Return from Colwyn Bay to Llandudno: £4.90 [adult]
Total: £26.80

Option 2
First Anytime Return from Chester to Llandudno: £32.60


Personally, for the extra £5.80, I would normally opt for the First Class fare given the extra flexibility and ability to use first class accommodation (where available).

 

[trainophile]

So the rules as given above don't apply on Anytime tickets? I could break an outward journey overnight?

 

[yorkie]

Before "simplification", Off Peak Returns (SVRs; formerly known as Saver Returns) always allowed break of journey in the return direction.

However at some point after that, Rail Delivery Group changed the rules to allow TOCs to restrict the return portion, and TfW did that with their 8A restricted fares.

I don't think such a change was within the spirit of simplification. Also many of these fares are regulated but it is unclear whether or not the ability to break your return journey was pat of that regulation. If not, the regulation was not fit for purpose, and if it was, RDG/TfW have broken it.

Anyone know more about this? (@thedbdiboy?)

So the rules as given above don't apply on Anytime tickets? I could break an outward journey overnight?

You can always break your journey on an Anytime; it's part of the generic T&Cs for that ticket type.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So the rules as given above don't apply on Anytime tickets? I could break an outward journey overnight?

Are there any (Standard) Anytime Return fares available from Chester to/from Colwyn Bay? Or just First only?

And, in any event, is Llandudno on, or off route, on a Chester to Colwyn Bay ticket (assuming BoJ is allowed on the outward or return journey?)

 

[tspaul26]

For the avoidance of doubt:
(i) General Conditions for First Anytime Return
(ii) General Conditions for the Off Peak Return
(iii) Restriction Code 8A for this particular Off Peak Return

Where (ii) and (iii) conflict, (iii) takes precedence over (ii).

Are there any (Standard) Anytime Return fares available from Chester to/from Colwyn Bay?

Not so far as I am aware. It is either the Off Peak Return or two Anytime Day Singles (which cost more than the First Anytime Return).

And, in any event, is Llandudno on, or off route, on a Chester to Colwyn Bay ticket (assuming BoJ is allowed on the return journey?)

Off route. You pass through Colwyn Bay en route from Chester to Llandudno and vice versa.

 

[trainophile]

On my outbound date there's only one departure from Chester with 1st Class available, and it's at 06:44. Not practical sadly.

 

[Watershed]

On my outbound date there's only one departure from Chester with 1st Class available, and it's at 06:44. Not practical sadly.

You can still buy the First Class fare, you just won't get anything extra for your money!

It's worth noting that if you break your journey where not permitted to do so, you are simply liable to pay the difference to the cheapest valid fare. Which would, in this case, likely involve the difference to the First Anytime Return (possibly the difference between the Anytime Day Single and Off-Peak Day Single, if less).

The likelihood of such an excess being demanded, of course, is something I will leave for you to determine...

However that's a different matter to the validity of the outward portion on the second day - on Off-Peak Returns, this is only the case where you couldn't complete the journey on the first day. Clearly, in this case you are going to struggle to make out that this is the case.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks again. I think I'll just play it straight and buy a Day Return for CWB-LLD. It's not going to break the bank!

 

[Llandudno]

Thanks again. I think I'll just play it straight and buy a Day Return for CWB-LLD. It's not going to break the bank!

Worth checking out TfW only advance singles, normally available for £7 between Chester - Colwyn Bay/Llandudno.

You when need a day return from Colwyn Bay - Llandudno, or 1 BWS day rover ticket for £5.70 would give you plenty of options.

 

[island]

Are there any (Standard) Anytime Return fares available from Chester to/from Colwyn Bay? Or just First only?

And, in any event, is Llandudno on, or off route, on a Chester to Colwyn Bay ticket (assuming BoJ is allowed on the outward or return journey?)

Llandudno, being the terminus of a branch line, is liable to be off route for any journey not to or from Llandudno

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Llandudno, being the terminus of a branch line, is liable to be off route for any journey not to or from Llandudno

Indeed. Might, however, a zero fare over distance excess be possible onward to Llandudno before departing Chester on an appropriate (already held) Chester->Colwyn Bay ticket? Not sure though if this would help the OP unless the Colwyn Bay->Llandudno leg were the same day as the Chester->Colwyn Bay journey.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed. Might, however, a zero fare over distance excess be possible onward to Llandudno before departing Chester on an appropriate (already held) Chester->Colwyn Bay ticket? Not sure though if this would help the OP unless the Colwyn Bay->Llandudno leg were the same day as the Chester->Colwyn Bay journey.

An excess fare, no matter what price, would not change the break of journey restrictions.

 

[73128]

Okay thanks. I was wondering how you're supposed to find out what the restriction code is before you've actually bought the tickets. I did look in the T&Cs but there was no detail of the code for that journey, only "unless the restriction code on your ticket prohibits it" (paraphrased, can't remember exact wording).

check on BR fares which will tell you the restriction code applicable.

 

[gray1404]

The ban of break of journey on the return portion is not enforceable. This is because they are regulated fares and Transport for Wales did not seek the necessary approval from the Department for Transport.

Customers are therefore permitted to break those journey on the return leg even if the train company would like to say otherwise.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It might be worth looking at TrainSplit if you wish to find the cheapest way to do some more unconventional journeys, perhaps? It searches for the cheapest but also offers a number of more flexible options.

Also, enjoy Llandudno. It's by far my favourite place of Wales

 

[robbeech]

The ban of break of journey on the return portion is not enforceable. This is because they are regulated fares and Transport for Wales did not seek the necessary approval from the Department for Transport.

Customers are therefore permitted to break those journey on the return leg even if the train company would like to say otherwise.

How does that work in the real world though ? You know, the one we share with the railway instead of the fantasy land where they obey the law.

If a customer were to be charged extra for another ticket for breaking their return journey, should they go on to complain to the operator and say “these are regulated fares and you didn’t seek the necessary permission from the DfT” the operator would laugh in their face and tell them it’s nonsense and refuse to refund.

Which one of the regulators would you expect to step in here and help the customer out? Transport Focus? They just hide behind everyone else and poke their head out to agree. The Ombudsman? They don’t have the actual knowledge about any of these rules. You’d tell them they didn’t seek the necessary permission , the operator would say 8A prohibits break of journey and they’d reject because 8A prohibits break of journey.

 

[island]

How does that work in the real world though ? You know, the one we share with the railway instead of the fantasy land where they obey the law.

If a customer were to be charged extra for another ticket for breaking their return journey, should they go on to complain to the operator and say “these are regulated fares and you didn’t seek the necessary permission from the DfT” the operator would laugh in their face and tell them it’s nonsense and refuse to refund.

Which one of the regulators would you expect to step in here and help the customer out? Transport Focus? They just hide behind everyone else and poke their head out to agree. The Ombudsman? They don’t have the actual knowledge about any of these rules. You’d tell them they didn’t seek the necessary permission , the operator would say 8A prohibits break of journey and they’d reject because 8A prohibits break of journey.

All of this is pertinent. Additionally, any breach of an agreement between the train company and the DfT by the train company is actionable by the DfT (and not a random passenger).

 

[Bletchleyite]

All of this is pertinent. Additionally, any breach of an agreement between the train company and the DfT by the train company is actionable by the DfT (and not a random passenger).

Yes, this does not mean the passenger is allowed to break their journey, rather it means a breach is enforceable by the DfT on the TOC.

On the other hand, anecdotal evidence is that the break of journey issue on these fares is close to unenforced and may not even have been introduced deliberately but rather by administrative accident. On the other other hand, there are enough staff out there who think overnight break of journey is never allowed.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The ban of break of journey on the return portion is not enforceable. This is because they are regulated fares and Transport for Wales did not seek the necessary approval from the Department for Transport.

Customers are therefore permitted to break those journey on the return leg even if the train company would like to say otherwise.

I didn't think that DfT had any oversight in Wales anymore?

 

[robbeech]

I didn't think that DfT had any oversight in Wales anymore?

Do they have any in England? It comes across as if they just let the operators make it up as they go along.

All of this is pertinent. Additionally, any breach of an agreement between the train company and the DfT by the train company is actionable by the DfT (and not a random passenger).

My point is the DfT are uninterested and won’t do anything, Infact they’ll likely go along with it and it will become acceptable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point is the DfT are uninterested and won’t do anything, Infact they’ll likely go along with it and it will become acceptable.

And there are TOCs who would want that.

Perhaps a pertinent thought is "choose your battles wisely"... the split doesn't add much to the cost.

 

[robbeech]

And there are TOCs who would want that.

All of them!
And the DfT would benefit too.

They can’t put the price of tickets up further (not that that matters to the TOCs anymore) so the only way to increase revenue further is to apply further restrictions to current tickets reducing their real world value and forcing passengers to buy a more expensive ticket.

 

[trainophile]

Just been in Devon, staying in Paignton, and I found that an off peak day return to Totnes does not permit BoJ either. I thought it was odd as it's a cheaper ticket than Paignton to Newton Abbot, but you have to change at Newton Abbot to get to Totnes so it's a longer journey. I was intending to have a wander round NTA on my way back but checked the small print on my e-ticket and found that no BoJ is allowed in either direction, so I had to abandon that. Didn't fancy a confrontation with the gateline staff.

 

[ABB125]

Just been in Devon, staying in Paignton, and I found that an off peak day return to Totnes does not permit BoJ either. I thought it was odd as it's a cheaper ticket than Paignton to Newton Abbot, but you have to change at Newton Abbot to get to Totnes so it's a longer journey. I was intending to have a wander round NTA on my way back but checked the small print on my e-ticket and found that no BoJ is allowed in either direction, so I had to abandon that. Didn't fancy a confrontation with the gateline staff.

Don't some e-tickets state that break of journey isn't allowed, even if it is?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't some e-tickets state that break of journey isn't allowed, even if it is?

Yes, any e-ticket bought on the GWR app has this incorrect text, if I recall.

 

[alistairlees]

Just been in Devon, staying in Paignton, and I found that an off peak day return to Totnes does not permit BoJ either. I thought it was odd as it's a cheaper ticket than Paignton to Newton Abbot, but you have to change at Newton Abbot to get to Totnes so it's a longer journey. I was intending to have a wander round NTA on my way back but checked the small print on my e-ticket and found that no BoJ is allowed in either direction, so I had to abandon that. Didn't fancy a confrontation with the gateline staff.

Yes it does. The full restrictions are here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/w3

Why do you think it doesn't (I bet the answer involves "I bought it from the GWR app...")?