P&O Ferries - mass redundancies without consultation

[Bletchleyite]

Though the staff freely decided to work for a Dubai-based company. If they wanted European style employment rights they should have chosen an appropriate employer.

I suspect a lot of them are "long-timers" who started there when it was a British owned company, possibly even when the boats were orange and green rather than blue.

 

[Dai Corner]

I suspect a lot of them are "long-timers" who started there when it was a British owned company, possibly even when the boats were orange and green rather than blue.

Even so, they could have, er, jumped ship to a different employer or even industry if employment rights were important to them. I wonder whether any who are RMT members sought or were given advice when the company was sold?

 

[Trainbike46]

Though the staff freely decided to work for a Dubai-based company. If they wanted European style employment rights they should have chosen an appropriate employer.

Before Brexit Dover-based P&O had all it's ships registered in the UK though, so when a lot of the staff joined, it would have been a UK based job, with a UK-based employer on UK-flagged ships

 

[CardiffKid]

Though the staff freely decided to work for a Dubai-based company. If they wanted European style employment rights they should have chosen an appropriate employer.

Do you think an 18 year old school leaver on minimum wage/minimum wage plus a pound etc knows this?

 

[Dai Corner]

Before Brexit Dover-based P&O had all it's ships registered in the UK though, so when a lot of the staff joined, it would have been a UK based job, with a UK-based employer on UK-flagged ships

Ok, if it all happened that quickly I have more sympathy for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

Do you think an 18 year old school leaver on minimum wage/minimum wage plus a pound etc knows this?

I think it's something a good Trade Union should make its members aware of.

 

[jamesontheroad]

This has echoes of News International's moonlight flit from Fleet Street to Wapping in January 1986...

Wapping dispute - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BayPaul]

Sounds similar to what Irish Ferries did a few years ago. Redundancies of this nature are much easier in shipping than in other areas, as contracts are effectively fixed term for the voyage and later renewed. It makes bussing in of an entire replacement crew entirely practical.

Even so, they could have, er, jumped ship to a different employer or even industry.

Before Brexit Dover-based P&O had all it's ships registered in the UK though, so when a lot of the staff joined, it would have been a UK based job, with a UK-based employer on UK-flagged ships

There are no UK owned international ferry companies. Even if there were, it wouldn't stop actions like this happening (Irish Ferries are Irish owned and did similar). If the ships had been UK flagged this morning it would have been entirely possible to reflag them at the same time.

One thing that is interesting with Irish Ferries was that there are now a lot of UK and Irish officers on the ships, working for decent wages. The main reason for the change was to get rid of very expensive legacy contracts, and heavy union involvement, not a change of nationality specifically. I wonder if similar may be the case here. The RMT in particular is seen as difficult to work with by shipping management, and unlike in the rail industry, it is entirely possible to enact a solution like this to remove their influence.

I know some great people at P&O, so I really feel for the people who are impacted by this. For officers there are lots of jobs available in shipping at present, but I suspect the British ratings will have more difficulty finding a new place to work

 

[island]

where the same free market allows customers to boycott the company in enough droves to bankrupt it

This won't happen. There will be a brief period of minor complaining on social media. And then people will go back to booking the cheapest option, as they always have.

 

[CardiffKid]

Ok, if it all happened that quickly I have more sympathy for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==


I think it's something a good Trade Union should make its members aware of.

I agree.

How many of P&Os staff are a member of a union? I honestly don’t know but I have a sneaking suspicion it’ll be less than you think it is.

 

[LucyP]

It isn't being reported properly. It's a fire and rehire situation, which P&O will have to justify, when they are inevitably taken to the Employment Tribunal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't being reported properly. It's a fire and rehire situation, which P&O will have to justify, when they are inevitably taken to the Employment Tribunal.

So the staff already knew about it? If not how could they apply for their old job even at poorer T&Cs?

"Fire and rehire" usually involves the existing staff being given the opportunity to apply for the new roles, immoral though it usually is.

 

[jfollows]

Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/mar/17/po-ferries-halts-sailings-before-major-announcement

Leading UK ferry operator P&O Ferries has sacked its crew across its entire fleet after stopping all its sailings on Thursday.

800 crew members affected

 

[LucyP]

They know about it now, and now they will be invited to apply. That's why it's called fire and rehire.

 

[Dai Corner]

It isn't being reported properly. It's a fire and rehire situation, which P&O will have to justify, when they are inevitably taken to the Employment Tribunal.

Do British Employment Tribunals have jurisdiction in this case?

 

[Trainbike46]

But a significant portion of the jobs has evidently already been given to others, as there are replacement crews right now

 

[Bletchleyite]

They know about it now, and now they will be invited to apply. That's why it's called fire and rehire.

So presumably they won't be operating for a few weeks now while that process takes place, and the bit about a new foreign crew being ready at the dockside isn't true? Or are they just temp workers to fill the gap while the process takes place?

 

[LucyP]

Yes the UK Employment Tribunal has jurisdiction. P&O are UK registered companies, with workers based in the UK, working from UK ports.

 

[jfollows]

So presumably they won't be operating for a few weeks now while that process takes place, and the bit about a new foreign crew being ready at the dockside isn't true? Or are they just temp workers to fill the gap while the process takes place?

Guardian report goes on to say

Unions warned a potential standoff could develop, having instructed crew not to leave vessels, while coaches of replacement crew and security staff are already in place at Dover and Hull.

 

[BayPaul]

So presumably they won't be operating for a few weeks now while that process takes place, and the bit about a new foreign crew being ready at the dockside isn't true? Or are they just temp workers to fill the gap while the process takes place?

If the old crew leave the ships, the new crew will be ready for the ships to sail later today.
That's a big if, though!

I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of the existing crew blockcade themselves in the bridhe /engine room and prevent the ship from sailing

 

[LucyP]

But are there really? Agency crews suddenly available, at all grades, who know how the ships operate and how the ports and routes operate. That's just not credible.

 

[BayPaul]

But are there really? Agency crews suddenly available, at all grades, who know how the ships operate and how the ports and routes operate. That's just not credible.

Very credible. The work getting this ready would have been going on for months if not years. The agency crew will all be fully qualified, passenger ship experienced probably have done a lot of familiarisation in advance, will include captains who already have Pilot exemption certificates for the ports, and probably includes people who already know the ships well. Shore managers will no doubt be providing support.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very credible. The work getting this ready would have been going on for months if not years. The agency crew will all be fully qualified, passenger ship experienced probably have done a lot of familiarisation in advance, will include captains who already have Pilot exemption certificates for the ports, and probably includes people who already know the ships well. Shore managers will no doubt be providing support.

But then it's not "fire and rehire", as that requires the existing staff to have the opportunity to apply for "their own job" on the new terms.

If the pay is too low they may choose not to, but the option has to be there.

 

[43066]

None of the ships involved is registered in the UK.
They are mostly Cyprus-flagged, and Bermuda is in there too - also surprisingly Finland.
That might determine what actions are legal in terms of crewing.
DP World of Dubai is the ultimate owner, and it looks like their future support is dependent on a lower cost base.
Wiki seems to know what's going on, and has already been updated today.

Of course this is how maritime operators get around local employment laws.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

But then it's not "fire and rehire", as that requires the existing staff to have the opportunity to apply for "their own job" on the new terms.

If the pay is too low they may choose not to, but the option has to be there.

Only if U.K. law has jurisdiction.

 

[BayPaul]

But then it's not "fire and rehire", as that requires the existing staff to have the opportunity to apply for "their own job" on the new terms.

If the pay is too low they may choose not to, but the option has to be there.

Merchant shipping doesn't work in the same way as shore based HR. I don't think this is fire and rehire. I suspect P&O have contracted a shipmangement aagency to supply them with 800 new, carefully selected crew on a long term basis.

Similar has happened before

 

[LucyP]

They won't. They won't ever have been on these ships. They won't know anything about them. And what is it going to save? The sacked employees are at least entitled to payment in lieu of notice, let alone redundancy payments, and much more likely compensation for unfair dismissal, because the jobs are clearly not redundant.

There is no way you can replace all your staff with agency workers and expect it to run, let alone something technical, with catastrophic consequences if it goes wrong, such as a ferry operation

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Marine Traffic shows 3 P&O ships at the old Dover Marine quay, now the cruise terminal.
But no P&O ships at the Irish Sea ports (Liverpool-Dublin, Cairnryan-Larne).

MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic

MarineTraffic Live Ships Map. Discover information and vessel positions for vessels around the world. Search the MarineTraffic ships database of more than 550000 active and decommissioned vessels. Search for popular ships globally. Find locations of ports and ships using the near Real Time ships...

www.marinetraffic.com

Edit: there is a ship berthed at both Cairnryan and Larne.

 

[Trainbike46]

Merchant shipping doesn't work in the same way as shore based HR. I don't think this is fire and rehire. I suspect P&O have contracted a shipmangement aagency to supply them with 800 new, carefully selected crew on a long term basis.

Similar has happened before

I would find it very surprising if they've been able to hire 800 qualified people without anyone noticing?

Terrible what P&O is doing here. Good luck to all the people blocking the ships

 

[LucyP]

They are owned by different P&O companies.

 

[Trainbike46]

Marine Traffic shows 3 P&O ships at the old Dover Marine quay, now the cruise terminal.
But no P&O ships at the Irish Sea ports (Liverpool-Dublin, Cairnryan-Larne).

MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic

MarineTraffic Live Ships Map. Discover information and vessel positions for vessels around the world. Search the MarineTraffic ships database of more than 550000 active and decommissioned vessels. Search for popular ships globally. Find locations of ports and ships using the near Real Time ships...

www.marinetraffic.com

Then where did the ships for those routes go?

 

[LucyP]

Your link shows European Highlander in port in Carnryan.