The dreaded British Summer Time (BST) change coming again - what happens to trains and connections running at that time?

[The exile]

It causes problems that now most people want to abolish it and stay at one timezone - the EU voted to abolish it before Brexit but couldn't make progress unfortunately.

As a software developer it causes massive problems when developing software, e.g. journey planners which works across the change.

Some people maybe - and probably mostly those who can’t remember when we tried it for a year. As for making life difficult for software developers - tough - computers are there to serve humans, not the other way around. If a generally overwhelming majority want to stick with one time, so be it (but stand by for the arguments about which it should be) but not just because “computer says no”.

 

[Cdd89]

As for making life difficult for software developers - tough - computers are there to serve humans, not the other way around

I think the impact on software development is a legitimate concern. We all pay for this decision, whether through opportunity cost (better functionality not implemented because developers spent time making time work*) or bugs.

(*I say that, but actually no software developer has anything to do with low level time and date code if they can help it).

 

[AM9]

And don’t forget that for a few years the UK also had double summer time. Sensibly that was kept to time of National crisis.

Then we had no change from UTC+1 in the 1968-9, 1969-70 and 1970-1 winters so UK time was the same for 36 months. It was OK, but there were a few complainers, particularly in Scotland who maintained that road accidents increased sharply in the darker mornings, - conveniently ignoring that there was a greater fall in accidents in the evening, the net effect was 2500 less deaths (11.7%).
See here. (Link to RoSPA article reporting on the success and then abandonment of the 1968 experiment.)

 

[Gareth]

As almost everyone under 60 doesn't know, this change was made in the late 1960s. Permanent summer time was introduced, renamed British Standard Time.

It was very unpopular. In the Midlands, it was dark until nearly nine o'clock, northern England half past nine, in Scotland nearly ten o'clock. Children had to go to school through dark still-frozen streets and accidents increased. I think that this was what prompted the introduction of flashing amber lights at school crossings, which hadn't existed before.

After a few years it was abandoned and twice-yearly changes reinstated.

Yep, even worse for Ireland being so far west. Unless people want different parts of the relatively small British Isles in different time zones (the SNP said they'd be relaxed about this, unsurprisingly) then it has to be GMT, which is our proper time zone. You want more light, get up earlier and go to bed earlier.

 

[yorkie]

Does a train scheduled to depart at 0115 depart at 0200?

As the clocks go straight from 0100 to 0200 they can't be on time, of course, and I agree with the principal they shouldn't run early so I guess it's a matter of minimising the delay?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2022 ==

It causes problems that now most people want to abolish it and stay at one timezone - ...

This would need to be discussed in a dedicated thread in General Discussion

 

[Harvester]

As almost everyone under 60 doesn't know, this change was made in the late 1960s. Permanent summer time was introduced, renamed British Standard Time.

It was very unpopular. In the Midlands, it was dark until nearly nine o'clock, northern England half past nine, in Scotland nearly ten o'clock. Children had to go to school through dark still-frozen streets and accidents increased. I think that this was what prompted the introduction of flashing amber lights at school crossings, which hadn't existed before.

After a few years it was abandoned and twice-yearly changes reinstated.

Yes I can remember how unpopular it was, especially in northern England and Scotland. Accidents with children going to school in the dark, during December and January, was one of the arguments against retaining it. I think the experiment lasted two years.

 

[etr221]

Perhaps - NOT - we should repeat the 1947 experience, when there were 4 time changes: from GMT to BST to BDST, and then back to BST, and to GMT.

And the Irish experience of 1st October 1916 could only have happened there, when at 2:00am the clocks had to be changed from 3:00am to 2:25:21am (for explanation see https://www.polyomino.org.uk/british-time/)

The experiment with British standard time lasted three years: from 27 October 1968 to 31st October 1971. The argument over increased number of accidents with children going to school in the dark was actually outweighed by the larger decrease in number of accidents when they were going home.

 

[DelW]

The experiment with British standard time lasted three years: from 27 October 1968 to 31st October 1971. The argument over increased number of accidents with children going to school in the dark was actually outweighed by the larger decrease in number of accidents when they were going home.

Though the then-recent introduction of drink-driving limits and roadside breathalyser tests was responsible for a debatable proportion of the afternoon / evening improvement, a fact not admitted until much later.

 

[Calthrop]

And don’t forget that for a few years the UK also had double summer time. Sensibly that was kept to time of National crisis.

Loved @Western Sunset's Oh Mr. Porter dialogue in Post #15. Also in the general "fiction" sphere, re shall we say irreverence toward messing about with the clock: I've always treasured the "take" on the business, in Lilian Beckwith's tales about an Englishwoman's time spent in the Hebrides in the general World War II era. The local people strongly tended toward a lack of enthusiasm for government in the far-away big cities; suspecting it of holding them in low esteem, and of lacking either understanding or concern for them, and the issues in their lives -- they felt this way, up to and including in the midst of a world war. Beckwith recounts how the islanders referred to GMT, British Summer Time, and Double Summer Time: as, respectively -- God's Time, Government Time, and Daft Time.

 

[johnnychips]

We are on a similar longitude to France, and I consider their hours more civilised, that is not being woken up by dawn at about five in the morning in midsummer.

To keep on topic, years ago before the dates were standardised in Europe, I had an hour sat in Hell on the day the clocks went back…a scheduled ten minute stop on a night train on the Norwegian railway turned into seventy minutes.

 

[miklcct]

I think the impact on software development is a legitimate concern. We all pay for this decision, whether through opportunity cost (better functionality not implemented because developers spent time making time work*) or bugs.

(*I say that, but actually no software developer has anything to do with low level time and date code if they can help it).

Low level code is already a solved problem but anything which involves a local time on schedule will fail in the forbidden hour in the March change, and creates ambiguity in the October change. Train schedule is already an example where the only proper way of solving it is to create a special timetable for these 2 days.

 

[DarloRich]

As a software developer it causes massive problems when developing software, e.g. journey planners which works across the change.

None of the software developers or IT professionals I work with have ever complained about a clock change.

 

[Watershed]

None of the software developers or IT professionals I work with have ever complained about a clock change.

...but then again, the railway handles clock changes in a totally "unique" way. By essentially ignoring it for any trains that are already running, meaning trains either run an hour late or depart an hour early depending on which direction the change it.

 

[yorkie]

None of the software developers or IT professionals I work with have ever complained about a clock change.

The developers I have spoken to say that if they are allowed to design systems with this in mind, it is not a problem.

However working with systems that are NOT designed with clock changes in mind is a major problem; even if you design your own systems with this in mind, if you are then forced to work with someone else's data, it can become a big problem that is out of your control.

 

[Peter0124]

...but then again, the railway handles clock changes in a totally "unique" way. By essentially ignoring it for any trains that are already running, meaning trains either run an hour late or depart an hour early depending on which direction the change it.

Will this show 60L when it arrives at Kentish Town?

Realtime Trains | 9W18 2325 Brighton to Luton | 26/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 9W18 2325 departure from Brighton to Luton on 26/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Surely the best thing to do would have been to make every fourth sunday of March service VAR and do this:
St Pancras 00:59
Kentish Town 02:03
West Hampstead Thameslink 02:07
...

Just completely skip an hour in the timetable, then it wouldn't be arriving late into places? As surely everyone knows the clocks are going forward tonight. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[geoffk]

Some people maybe - and probably mostly those who can’t remember when we tried it for a year. As for making life difficult for software developers - tough - computers are there to serve humans, not the other way around. If a generally overwhelming majority want to stick with one time, so be it (but stand by for the arguments about which it should be) but not just because “computer says no”.

Energy saving -rather important at the moment - is another reason to keep the current system, although the term "daylight saving" should be replaced by "daylight shifting". From tomorrow we switch the lights on later in the evening but not everyone needs to switch them on earlier in the morning.

 

[AM9]

Yes I can remember how unpopular it was, especially in northern England and Scotland. Accidents with children going to school in the dark, during December and January, was one of the arguments against retaining it. I think the experiment lasted two years.

This is wrong, see the link to the RoSPA webpage that I put in post #33 above. There were objections mainly from Scotland and a few in Northern Ireland, citing the increase in accidents, but the real reason was that it meant that those areas would have to make some adjustments. The more deaths issue was a myth, there were fewer accidents, both adult and children numbers were down. It was used to persuade the public that it shouldn't change.
If it was so bad for schoolchildren, it would have been simmple to change school hours to make them slightly later in the winter. There was no reason why they had to be exactly the same as down south.

 

[miklcct]

Will this show 60L when it arrives at Kentish Town?

Realtime Trains | 9W18 2325 Brighton to Luton | 26/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 9W18 2325 departure from Brighton to Luton on 26/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Surely the best thing to do would have been to make every fourth sunday of March service VAR and do this:
St Pancras 00:59
Kentish Town 02:03
West Hampstead Thameslink 02:07
...

Just completely skip an hour in the timetable, then it wouldn't be arriving late into places? As surely everyone knows the clocks are going forward tonight. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes that will remove all the problems I have mentioned in the opening post.

 

[Peter0124]

Yes that will remove all the problems I have mentioned in the opening post.

Looks like they also ended up cancelling the service too
This one is scheduled to run as STP but still has departure times in the 01:00 hours.

Realtime Trains | 9T28 0004 Brighton to Luton | 27/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 9T28 0004 departure from Brighton to Luton on 27/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Jamiescott1]

I always find it interesting in aviation where different countries change to summer /winter time on different dates (for example North America brought their clocks forward an hour on 13th March).
At slot constrained airports this must cause a headache for the few weeks where the time difference is an hour more / less than usual

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I always find it interesting in aviation where different countries change to summer /winter time on different dates (for example North America brought their clocks forward an hour on 13th March).
At slot constrained airports this must cause a headache for the few weeks where the time difference is an hour more / less than usual

And yet, in my experience, you don't hear the aviation industry complaining about it.

 

[yorkie]

Will this show 60L when it arrives at Kentish Town?

Realtime Trains | 9W18 2325 Brighton to Luton | 26/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 9W18 2325 departure from Brighton to Luton on 26/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Surely the best thing to do would have been to make every fourth sunday of March service VAR and do this:
St Pancras 00:59
Kentish Town 02:03
West Hampstead Thameslink 02:07
...

Just completely skip an hour in the timetable, then it wouldn't be arriving late into places? As surely everyone knows the clocks are going forward tonight. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes l agreed, but that would be too pragmatic; it won't be done, as the industry doesn't want to do anything about it.

I see trains from Waterloo departed an hour late instead of departing at 0200; is that the correct procedure?

The 0142 occurred unnecessary delay and may not have made it to its destination; does anyone know what went on here: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L55634/2022-03-27#allox_id=0 ?

If it was intended to depart at 0242, a sensible approach (so not one I would expect) would have been to adjust the timings accordingly.

I would argue Delay Repay should be applicable, as the train departed 42 minutes later than the expected time of 0200.

 

[TheEdge]

Yes l agreed, but that would be too pragmatic; it won't be done, as the industry doesn't want to do anything about it.

This (as often is the case) feels like RUK looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

If the clock change happened at noon on a Monday then yes, there would be an issue and the railways would probably need to do something. But it doesn't, it happens at 0059 on a Sunday morning, the amount of trains running across the network is negligible and it's simpler to just have the few dozen (maybe even less?) running passenger services just be arbitrarily an hour late (because remember, that's all time is, an entirely arbitrary definition of a universal constant) for that short window between 0200-0300.

It probably is entirely possible to just re-adust the timings but you can your bottom dollar that somewhere it would break something and cause a bigger issue than just letting them run "late". Similar to the 0000 calling time issue. Its fair easier to just work around it that find a solution to an issue that isn't really an issue.

 

[miklcct]

This (as often is the case) feels like RailUK Forums looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

If the clock change happened at noon on a Monday then yes, there would be an issue and the railways would probably need to do something. But it doesn't, it happens at 0059 on a Sunday morning, the amount of trains running across the network is negligible and it's simpler to just have the few dozen (maybe even less?) running passenger services just be arbitrarily an hour late (because remember, that's all time is, an entirely arbitrary definition of a universal constant) for that short window between 0200-0300.

It probably is entirely possible to just re-adust the timings but you can your bottom dollar that somewhere it would break something and cause a bigger issue than just letting them run "late". Similar to the 0000 calling time issue. Its fair easier to just work around it that find a solution to an issue that isn't really an issue.

There are trains running when the clock changed and connections happening in the SWR network, so it is really an issue.

 

[Bald Rick]

It causes problems that now most people want to abolish it and stay at one timezone - the EU voted to abolish it before Brexit but couldn't make progress unfortunately.

I wouldn’t say “most people want to abolish it” in this country.

Has any UK research been done recently?

 

[DelW]

This is wrong, see the link to the RoSPA webpage that I put in post #33 above. There were objections mainly from Scotland and a few in Northern Ireland, citing the increase in accidents, but the real reason was that it meant that those areas would have to make some adjustments. The more deaths issue was a myth, there were fewer accidents, both adult and children numbers were down. It was used to persuade the public that it shouldn't change.
If it was so bad for schoolchildren, it would have been simmple to change school hours to make them slightly later in the winter. There was no reason why they had to be exactly the same as down south.

The accident and injury statistics are somewhat moot, since significant road safety measures were implemented at the same time - notably in 1967 drink-driving laws, and in 1968 compulsory fitting of front seat belts to all post-1965 cars.

The unpopularity was much more widespread - the legislation to repeal Standard time was passed by 366 to 81, which hardly suggests that only Scotland and Northern Ireland were against:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Summer_Time

The trial was the subject of a House of Commons debate on 2 December 1970[17] when, on a free vote, the House of Commons voted by 366 to 81 votes to end the experiment

 

[miklcct]

The accident and injury statistics are somewhat moot, since significant road safety measures were implemented at the same time - notably in 1967 drink-driving laws, and in 1968 compulsory fitting of front seat belts to all post-1965 cars.

The unpopularity was much more widespread - the legislation to repeal Standard time was passed by 366 to 81, which hardly suggests that only Scotland and Northern Ireland were against:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Summer_Time

It was proved unpopular to stay at GMT+1 - but how about reverting to GMT all year?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And yet, in my experience, you don't hear the aviation industry complaining about it.

The aviation industry runs entirely on GMT ( as UT - Universal Time and known as "Zulu" time on radio communications ). where a destination has strict and inflexible slot timings, they will just amend the departure and arrival times of the flight at the other end of the route. There's usually enough alterations, and they're planned months in advance, that it doesn't cause any disruption or booking issues at all.

 

[miklcct]

This (as often is the case) feels like RailUK Forums looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

If the clock change happened at noon on a Monday then yes, there would be an issue and the railways would probably need to do something. But it doesn't, it happens at 0059 on a Sunday morning, the amount of trains running across the network is negligible and it's simpler to just have the few dozen (maybe even less?) running passenger services just be arbitrarily an hour late (because remember, that's all time is, an entirely arbitrary definition of a universal constant) for that short window between 0200-0300.

It probably is entirely possible to just re-adust the timings but you can your bottom dollar that somewhere it would break something and cause a bigger issue than just letting them run "late". Similar to the 0000 calling time issue. Its fair easier to just work around it that find a solution to an issue that isn't really an issue.

And it turned out a whole bunch of Thameslink trains were cancelled due to planning error.

 

[Stephen42]

Yes l agreed, but that would be too pragmatic; it won't be done, as the industry doesn't want to do anything about it.

I see trains from Waterloo departed an hour late instead of departing at 0200; is that the correct procedure?

The 0142 occurred unnecessary delay and may not have made it to its destination; does anyone know what went on here: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L55634/2022-03-27#allox_id=0 ?

If it was intended to depart at 0242, a sensible approach (so not one I would expect) would have been to adjust the timings accordingly.

I would argue Delay Repay should be applicable, as the train departed 42 minutes later than the expected time of 0200.

It doesn't solve the problem though, the journey planners shown all have departure time, arrival time and duration. If the schedules skipped an hour the duration would be wrong. It would also break existing journey planners as they assume the whole schedule runs in the time zone of the start time and adjust the display times for clock changes. Any trains on the skipped hour run an hour later. Adjusting the schedule times is more problematic when the clocks go back as there are two 0100 to 0200 hours one in each time zone so journey planners would need enhancement to avoid offering invalid connections.

The error in the journey planners looks to be applying both directions of clock change on the same day. The 0:11 GMT to 2:06 BST 55 mins South Western Railway and 2:21 BST to 2:26 BST 5 mins Thameslink have both been forwarded the hour correctly. When the time passes 2:00 GMT/3:00 BST the times are incorrectly showing as an hour earlier. The Thameslink one shows the clock change icon indicating the duration is different due to a clock change, but there shouldn't have been one for this journey.