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Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) ideas

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plugwash

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Restrictions on route, timing, operator marked CLEARLY AT EVERY STAGE.
One of the problem is that the peak restrictions on some tickets are far from simple and clear (and worse the published human-readable restrictions don't always line up with the electronic restrictions).

I suspect this is part of what has driven ticket machine operators towards "planner-based" machines.
 
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robbeech

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One of the problem is that the peak restrictions on some tickets are far from simple and clear (and worse the published human-readable restrictions don't always line up with the electronic restrictions).

I suspect this is part of what has driven ticket machine operators towards "planner-based" machines.
Indeed, i rather meant when NOT using a planner based system, or when in "simple" mode on a theoretical new design there could be a warning about tickets. In fairness this could be a generic warning when buying anything other than an anytime ticket to say that <ticket type> are only valid at certain times, if you are unsure please see restriction code <code> or select a service to ensure validity.
 

plugwash

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Another option might be to kick over to a planner based interface if the off-peak tickets for the flow in question have "complex" restrictions. That may allow local tickets to be sold more easilly while limiting the confusion with long distance tickets.
 

Bletchleyite

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Another option might be to kick over to a planner based interface if the off-peak tickets for the flow in question have "complex" restrictions. That may allow local tickets to be sold more easilly while limiting the confusion with long distance tickets.

A well-designed planner based system adds one tap to a manual one and saves people buying an invalid ticket there and then. If it has an "open return" option (as the Avanti app does) people can always sort out return validity and excess if needed at the destination. The text restriction can still be shown.

(Note: the new Avanti TVMs, unlike their app, are not a well designed planner based system)
 

robbeech

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If it has an "open return" option (as the Avanti app does) people can always sort out return validity and excess if needed at the destination.
Providing its clear at every stage whether it's a day return or a period return.
 

zero

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it wouldn't let me choose the train due to leave in 4 minutes time as reservations close 5 minutes before depature, but I was at a smaller station where the TVM was less than 30 seconds walk to the platform I was using. The result was that I had to select a train I had no intention of catching, creating a reservation on that service that I had no intention of using. In this instance there was no price difference between the two trains, but on other occaisons, there would have been. The result is that I've stopped using TVMs to buy my tickets for immediate travel. Maybe that's the desire - maybe they want customers to move to Apps?

But you'd have the same problem with the app, in fact worse as LNER's app has a 15 minute limit at least at the initial stage
 

MotCO

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*Ability to print or reprint e-tickets. If your phone is low on charge you could scan the ticket on screen and print out your ticket. Or if it is flat you could login to your account at a tvm and print any tickets you may need (this is obviously complicated with multiple retailers but something they could get on board with in time perhaps).

Could a TVM offer a mobile phone contact recharge base to give your phone enough power to be able to print your tickets?
 

Bletchleyite

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Could a TVM offer a mobile phone contact recharge base to give your phone enough power to be able to print your tickets?

You get paid-for mobile phone charging stations all over the place now but I've not seen one in a railway station. Probably worth attracting the companies in.
 

Non Multi

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You get paid-for mobile phone charging stations all over the place now but I've not seen one in a railway station. Probably worth attracting the companies in.
I've seen one in a waiting room at Doncaster. Whilst I was in there I saw another passenger unplug the thing and plug their own charger into the wall socket.
 

robbeech

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I've seen one in a waiting room at Doncaster. Whilst I was in there I saw another passenger unplug the thing and plug their own charger into the wall socket.
LNER First Class lounges have had them since very early days of this style of charging. I've never used one of theirs, as i understand it they've improved in the last couple of years, the ones i now use at home are very good but i know of early ones that were mediocre. It's possible that other waiting rooms have them. I think it would be an acceptable feature although i think there would be a risk of people blocking TVMs to charge their phone.
 

plugwash

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A well-designed planner based system adds one tap to a manual one
I still feel that forcing people to choose a train when all the next n trains will be accepting the same tickets is counter-productive.

It's not just the tap itself it's the thought/indecision behind it.
 

Wallsendmag

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I still feel that forcing people to choose a train when all the next n trains will be accepting the same tickets is counter-productive.

It's not just the tap itself it's the thought/indecision behind it.
Thats the problem though , with Advance available until 5 mins before departure wouldn't you want to know if the train in 20 mins is £50 instead of £95
 

robbeech

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Thats the problem though , with Advance available until 5 mins before departure wouldn't you want to know if the train in 20 mins is £50 instead of £95
Agreed, but I (and many regular passengers) also want to be able to go through the process fast hence the several ideas of having a simple / advanced setup.

“There may be cheaper tickets available by selecting specific trains in advanced mode” should cure anyone’s complaints that they were over charged.

Problem here is pricing structure, not TVMs
True but any change to that will undoubtedly increase costs as a cure.
 

cuccir

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Thats the problem though , with Advance available until 5 mins before departure wouldn't you want to know if the train in 20 mins is £50 instead of £95

But (I think?) many casual users rocking up at their local station wanting a day return to a common destination - the nearest big city, the local seaside resort, the regional tourist trap - are poorly served by this system. They just want to do what they could do on TVMs since their introduction: press 'Newcastle', 'Blackpool', or 'Leeds', get a list of ticket types, and buy that ticket. They're unlikely to want to book because they will have flexible plans, will be unbothered by standing on a short journey, and savings (if any) due to Advance or TOC-limited tickets are minimal.

Again, maybe the desire is that such users will start using Apps or smartcards more, and that TVMs become more oriented around supporting mid to long distance travellers, but it seems that by adding features, those simpler ways of buying tickets have been lost - I'd have thought that there could be ways of adding without also subtracting.
 

Haywain

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Problem here is pricing structure, not TVMs
That also applies to many of the comments about the provision of restriction information.

But (I think?) many casual users rocking up at their local station wanting a day return to a common destination - the nearest big city, the local seaside resort, the regional tourist trap - are poorly served by this system. They just want to do what they could do on TVMs since their introduction: press 'Newcastle', 'Blackpool', or 'Leeds', get a list of ticket types, and buy that ticket. They're unlikely to want to book because they will have flexible plans, will be unbothered by standing on a short journey, and savings (if any) due to Advance or TOC-limited tickets are minimal.
On most TVMs there will be a quick purchase screen listing the most popular tickets, allowing exactly this. Most stations that I have experience of have a reasonably high percentage of ticket buyers going to just one or two places, so they can be catered for very easily except where the trains require reservations.
 

plugwash

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Thats the problem though , with Advance available until 5 mins before departure wouldn't you want to know if the train in 20 mins is £50 instead of £95
I think selling advances in that way is probably counter-productive for the railway*. If someone has already rocked up at the station, they have probably already decided to travel, so giving them an unpredictable discount at that point just leaves revenue on the table and delays the queue.

* Though it may be beneficial to individual TOCs because of the way revenue distribution works.
 

py_megapixel

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Thats the problem though , with Advance available until 5 mins before departure wouldn't you want to know if the train in 20 mins is £50 instead of £95
The current machines don't do a good job of telling you that. For example, as mentioned before (and as I'm sure you will know) the common tickets screen on Flowbird machines actually bypasses the journey planner, meaning if your destination appears on the common tickets screen you might well end up paying the £95 even if you actually plan to travel on the £50 train.
 

Bletchleyite

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The current machines don't do a good job of telling you that. For example, as mentioned before (and as I'm sure you will know) the common tickets screen on Flowbird machines actually bypasses the journey planner, meaning if your destination appears on the common tickets screen you might well end up paying the £95 even if you actually plan to travel on the £50 train.

This is one reason why "common destinations" is better than "common tickets".

Tapping a "common destination" should display a list of the next few trains with prices for one adult without Railcard, as the most common default.
 

Wallsendmag

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When we had a presentation from one supplier they had a departure screen from that station. You click the train and all the stops showed up click the stop and the fares show up. Seemed good to me but other bits were a letdown
 

urbophile

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Isn't there a need for more complex machines selling every possible type of ticket, at an unstaffed country station, whereas at busy urban stations with staff on hand (even a staffed ticket office) all you need is one capable of selling simple tickets to popular destinations? Or of course you can just direct people to use their phones and connect to the website (hopefully an integrated GBR one rather than an individual TOC). Keep it simple, yes, but that applies to the fare structure as well as the machines.
 

robbeech

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Isn't there a need for more complex machines selling every possible type of ticket, at an unstaffed country station, whereas at busy urban stations with staff on hand (even a staffed ticket office) all you need is one capable of selling simple tickets to popular destinations? Or of course you can just direct people to use their phones and connect to the website (hopefully an integrated GBR one rather than an individual TOC). Keep it simple, yes, but that applies to the fare structure as well as the machines.
There’s a need to sell a wide range (preferably the complete range) but there’s also a need for a simple interface. A two option interface (simple and advanced) for the purchasing side on a TVM seems to be favourable here. There is no reason for any machine to be different if it’s set up properly. Common destinations would of course be tailored accordingly as they are now.
 

Christmas

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I find the keyboard layout on TVMs to be next to useless since they began to be installed with ABCDE rather than the much easier and faster QWERTY layout. The argument that people may be unfamiliar with QWERTY is redundant as it goes back decades, even pensioners will have encountered it.

Number panels are also laid out in an inconvenient configuration. It's time this was changed for the benefit of the majority of users.
 

Haywain

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Number panels are also laid out in an inconvenient configuration.
Not sure what you mean by this.
I find the keyboard layout on TVMs to be next to useless since they began to be installed with ABCDE rather than the much easier and faster QWERTY layout.
Not all TVMs use that sort of keyboard layout. Ours, at LNER (and I expect Northern, Chiltern and others), use a QWERTY layout.
 

Bletchleyite

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One thing that would help to reduce the need for using the keyboard is to have common DESTINATIONS, not common TICKETS. You can get more places on the screen then, and it would cover most needs.

Shere did this with Fastticket machines, then the S&B machines mucked it up.
 

Haywain

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One thing that would help to reduce the need for using the keyboard is to have common DESTINATIONS, not common TICKETS.
We do that - if your ticket isn't on the popular tickets screen the next screen is popular destinations.
 

Bletchleyite

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We do that - if your ticket isn't on the popular tickets screen the next screen is popular destinations.

I'd just have popular destinations. Popular tickets will confuse some people into buying the wrong one, e.g. an Anytime when an Off Peak is valid for their journey.

I never use "popular tickets" on the LNR machines, I always type my destination to see the list of fares.
 

Haywain

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Popular tickets will confuse some people into buying the wrong one, e.g. an Anytime when an Off Peak is valid for their journey.
You do our best to not offer tickets when a cheaper one should be OK, although where afternoon restrictions apply (such as West Yorkshire) it's not so easy. However, having separate sets of popular tickets displayed at different times helps.
 
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