British Transport Hotels in the 1970s & 80s

[Rescars]

In regard to Grumpy's experience with the cars at Turnberry, there used to be a plaque in the Midland Manchester commemorating the first meeting between Rolls and Royce. The rest is history of course.

 

[Tangent]

The biggest fall from grace must surely be the Adelphi in Liverpool. Regarded as the best hotel in England outside London in the 1930s; now a member of the famously terrible Britannia group.

At that time, Liverpool would have attracted a lot of people for intercontinental travel by boat, especially on the transatlantic route. Now, travellers go by air, the cruise market mostly uses Southampton, and likely customers are restricted to visitors to the city itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At that time, Liverpool would have attracted a lot of people for intercontinental travel by boat, especially on the transatlantic route. Now, travellers go by air, the cruise market mostly uses Southampton, and likely customers are restricted to visitors to the city itself.

Indeed, but there won't solely be demand for cheap, bad hotels, just as there are airlines in the market that aren't Ryanair.

The issue is that it's easier and cheaper to build a Premier Inn from scratch (that being the sort of hotel that most people want these days) than it is to convert something like the Adelphi into one. The only way for it to really get a distinguished future these days would be if it was converted into posh flats or even premium student accommodation with some guest rooms for e.g. visiting parents.

 

[davetheguard]

There's a book by Michael Patterson called "Railway Hotels" that has a list and quite a lot of of exterior and internal illustrations. It is published by Amberley Publishing.

For example, apparently, the Midland Grand Hotel at St. Pancras closed as early as 1935, as it was already in need of modernisation and the money wasn't forthcoming. It was then used as railway offices until 1985, becoming increasingly run down.

As in well known, it is now magnificently restored and re-opened in 2011 as the St. Pancras Renaissance Hotel. If only I could afford to stay there.... The rather splendid part of the hotel that was formerly the St. Pancras ticket office, is easily visited however, for the price of a drink at the bar.

 

[Grumpy]

As a group of hotels, were they profitable prior to privatisation?

In the mid 1970's the published accounts showed a profit for BT Hotels also for station catering and a loss for train catering.
However, as ever, it depends on how you keep the books-for example the BTH accounts (like other subsidiaries) didn't include interest charges which were all reported at Group level.

 

[Revaulx]

I think there would always be demand to some extent for hotels in large cities. The issue for the likes of the Adelphi is that it can be easier to build a decent new one than to properly modernise an old one, particularly if it involves needing to add en-suite bathrooms and all the required plumbing. I think that's why such hotels are the favourites of the execrable Britannia group - buy them cheap, flog them cheap, let them deteriorate.

The Adelphi wasn’t that old; it was rebuilt immediately before the First World War by which time modern amenities such as central heating, electric lighting and power, lifts, en-suite bathrooms etc. were pretty standard in prestigious city centre hotels. The Great Central at Marylebone opened a bit earlier in 1899 and made the Midland Grand at St Pancras feel prehistoric by comparison.

I reckon the Adelphi suffered the indignity of becoming a Britannia more as a result of Liverpool being on its arse in the early 80s. If privatisation had happened a bit later, at the same time as the rail network, it would almost certainly have been valued more highly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I reckon the Adelphi suffered the indignity of becoming a Britannia more as a result of Liverpool being on its arse in the early 80s. If privatisation had happened a bit later, at the same time as the rail network, it would almost certainly have been valued more highly.

This could well be true. In 2022 it's a popular city break destination. In the 80s it definitely wasn't, nor was business booming, so most demands for hotel accommodation would have been quite low.

It did OK during the Grand National, which was probably the only time demand was high, purely because what hotels there were tended to fill up.

 

[Revaulx]

Indeed, but there won't solely be demand for cheap, bad hotels, just as there are airlines in the market that aren't Ryanair.

The issue is that it's easier and cheaper to build a Premier Inn from scratch (that being the sort of hotel that most people want these days) than it is to convert something like the Adelphi into one. The only way for it to really get a distinguished future these days would be if it was converted into posh flats or even premium student accommodation with some guest rooms for e.g. visiting parents.

Well the Midland at Manchester, which is older than the Adelphi, has always done ok. Likewise the slightly younger Queen’s in Leeds. The big two in Edinburgh also, though I appreciate that they are in a much more touristy city.

This could well be true. In 2022 it's a popular city break destination. In the 80s it definitely wasn't, nor was business booming, so most demands for hotel accommodation would have been quite low.

It did OK during the Grand National, which was probably the only time demand was high, purely because what hotels there were tended to fill up.

Indeed. I struggled to find a hotel in Birmingham in the late 80s when a work assignment there clashed with the Motor Show. I got put in a quite smart place in Wolvo that seemed to double as a brothel…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well the Midland at Manchester, which is older than the Adelphi, has always done ok. Likewise the slightly younger Queen’s in Leeds. The big two in Edinburgh also, though I appreciate that they are in a much more touristy city.

You could put a tarpaulin over a park bench in Edinburgh and you'd sell it, particularly during the Fringe, you don't get much more touristy.

 

[Bishopstone]

As a group of hotels, were they profitable prior to privatisation? Some must have been far more profitable than others. The Grosvenor Victoria linked to an international airport by Gatwick Express should never have had a problem with selling rooms. The Adelphi must have found it much harder after the airlines took over the transatlantic traffic.

True, but the other part of the equation is the cost base. British Rail(ways) weren’t known for their efficiency, but maybe the hotel operations were more tightly managed.

Nowadays, you wouldn’t turn a proft with an under-invested hotel operation carrying an excessive cost base, though I suspect profit margins were better until the 80s, and specifically pre-internet. Consumer expectations were more forgiving, too.

As Grumpy has added at post #35, what happened at the operating level might have been obscured by intra-group charges. Did BTH pay rent to BRB for their sites, for example? If not, they had a great headstart!

And of course, if the underlying site values appreciated massively (I suspect they did), then so-so operational performance might have been overlooked.

 

[Revaulx]

You could put a tarpaulin over a park bench in Edinburgh and you'd sell it, particularly during the Fringe, you don't get much more touristy.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The 1871 North Western Hotel at Lime Street, Liverpool closed in 1933 for similar reasons as St. Pancras, and then became offices. It was derelict by the 1970s, then student accommodation and is now about to reopen as a top quality Radisson hotel. Clearly there is now a strong demand for hotels in the city now - it would be nice if the Adelphi could be similarly upgraded (and preferably out of the hands of Britannia).

 

[Rescars]

True, but the other part of the equation is the cost base. British Rail(ways) weren’t known for their efficiency, but maybe the hotel operations were more tightly managed.

Nowadays, you wouldn’t turn a proft with an under-invested hotel operation carrying an excessive cost base, though I suspect profit margins were better until the 80s, and specifically pre-internet. Consumer expectations were more forgiving, too.

As Grumpy has added at post #35, what happened at the operating level might have been obscured by intra-group charges. Did BTH pay rent to BRB for their sites, for example? If not, they had a great headstart!

And of course, if the underlying site values appreciated massively (I suspect they did), then so-so operational performance might have been overlooked.

Bishopstones comments about site vaules is interesting. I know nothing about that aspect of BTH, but many hotel companies' core business lies in real estate and the hospitality activities are somewhat secondary.

Remember that the principal reason for building the hotels in the first place was to attract passenger traffic, especially first class traffic, from competing lines. That's why, for instance, the Midland had far grander hotels than those of the LNWR. Many of the Scottish hotels were built to develop locations as holiday resorts (Glenagles, Turnberry, Dornoch, etc). So these were marketing expenses - the challenges of cross charging and modern cost accounting came later. This resulted in all sorts of excitements when privatisation came. IIRC the boilers of the North British Hotel in Edinburgh also provided the heating for the station buildings at Waverley (and had in the past also supplied the steam main for carriage heating as well), so in that instance, the hotel was subsidising the railway.

Even at the end, BTH preserved the traditional belief that things could be done better in house than by using external suppliers. So, for instance, BTH had its own laundries and its own coffee roasting operation as well as its own wine cellars. Some of the hotels had their own bakeries, which also supplied other BTH hotels close by (breakfast rolls and pastries despatched along with the newspapers). Which is the better way to do things is open to perpetual debate.

 

[WesternLancer]

Some answers here: http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/operators/privatisation.shtm#hotels Mainly piecemeal, starting in 1949!

V interesting link.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think there would always be demand to some extent for hotels in large cities. The issue for the likes of the Adelphi is that it can be easier to build a decent new one than to properly modernise an old one, particularly if it involves needing to add en-suite bathrooms and all the required plumbing. I think that's why such hotels are the favourites of the execrable Britannia group - buy them cheap, flog them cheap, let them deteriorate.

Lime St still has the LNWR North Western Hotel building on the premises, but it's been under various owners over the years, latterly a hall of residence for John Moores University.
I think it might become a hotel again one day.
The Upper Crust in the basement needs a bomb under it.

The North Western was never in BTH ownership, as it was closed as a hotel by the LMS in 1933.
The LMS also owned the Adelphi, it having been in Midland Railway ownership when last rebuilt (there were several predecessors).

 

[Revaulx]

Remember that the principal reason for building the hotels in the first place was to attract passenger traffic, especially first class traffic, from competing lines. That's why, for instance, the Midland had far grander hotels than those of the LNWR. Many of the Scottish hotels were built to develop locations as holiday resorts (Glenagles, Turnberry, Dornoch, etc). So these were marketing expenses - the challenges of cross charging and modern cost accounting came later.

The GNSR’s Cruden Bay Hotel was the most fantastic of these. Closed in 1940, never reopened post-war, sold by the LNER in 1947 and demolished soon after. The associated golf course survives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1871 North Western Hotel at Lime Street, Liverpool closed in 1933 for similar reasons as St. Pancras, and then became offices. It was derelict by the 1970s, then student accommodation and is now about to reopen as a top quality Radisson hotel. Clearly there is now a strong demand for hotels in the city now - it would be nice if the Adelphi could be similarly upgraded (and preferably out of the hands of Britannia).

It would be good if Britannia could go under - their hotels are all architecturally interesting, classic buildings and would all benefit from someone investing properly in them to turn them into quality establishments.

I don't see why anyone stays in a Britannia. If I wanted cheap, I'd rather the YHA (or one of the many independent hostels).

Liverpool of 2022 is a strong "weekend break" type tourist destination - very much not what it was in the 80s!

 

[WesternLancer]

It's interesting to reflect back on the OP's original question.

It seems that in many cases the national BTH chain was able to deliver a decent quality product that may in some cases have been a bit old fashioned, but may have been to a decent standard overall and probably maintained at that across the chain.

In contrast post privatization, and the changing hotel market overall, has resulted in some of the hotels being heavily invested in, being very nice indeed to stay in, and probably quite expensive to stay at - but others, where the market is not there, have declined to a standard way below what I suspect BR/BTH would ever have offered - some to be close to being best described as quite grim. Some have closed completely as no doubt their business case / market did not stack up at all (flat conversions, demolition etc).

Certainly not a case of magic wand of privatization releasing funds for investment and a resultant upward spiral of quality and service in all cases - but almost certainly in some.

Some seem to have declined quite badly even in the recent past (say about the last 15 years or so) which is sad - as they are often very impressive landmark buildings in the towns they serve.

 

[bramling]

It would be good if Britannia could go under - their hotels are all architecturally interesting, classic buildings and would all benefit from someone investing properly in them to turn them into quality establishments.

I don't see why anyone stays in a Britannia. If I wanted cheap, I'd rather the YHA (or one of the many independent hostels).

Agreed about Britannia. I have stayed in a couple of their hotels purely either out of convenience, or (in the case of the North Stafford and Adelphi) specifically because I wanted to stay in the building. As you say, they have a habit of being particularly pleasing buildings, and it's a shame they're allowed to rot in the way they are.

The Palace Hotel at Buxton (not a railway hotel as far as I know, though may have been built in response to the railway) is particularly sad. Should be a superb hotel, well sited in a well-to-do but in practice is an utter dump. People seem to stay there, though.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Went to the Midland in Manchester in 1983, on priv rate, to do the railways in the area. Old fashioned but it was good and when I went to the bar, the older members of the Coronation Street cast were there, sitting very quietly, some on their own. I asked the barman (an ex-serviceman) if they were always like that and he said they were - according to their minders they only came alive on set!

I left them well alone. Walking over to the then derelict Central Station (then being used as a car park) was a real eye opener - I will always remember that. Years later, when on BR courses, I ended up in the Britannia (?) on Piccadilly Square - comfortable for a free visit but no real comparison.

 

[WesternLancer]

Couple of nights there also as part of the same 1981 trip, after an overnight stop at Inverness. Epic views from the breakfast area at the Kyle Hotel, of the CalMac ferry then operating to-and-fro between Kyle and the Isle of Skye.

As I recall, I was endeavouring to partly retrace Michael Palin's footsteps in his 1980 travel documentary for the BBC "Confessions of a Train Spotter", returning back to Glasgow Queen Street via Mallaig and Fort William.

We stayed in the Lochalsh hotel at least in part inspired by the same Palin related reason - stay was probably in the late 1990s. Sadly it seemed rather run down by then and service less than great. Food quality in restaurant not great either IIRC. Building clearly in need of investment.
No idea if it has improved since then - as noted location spectacular.

I suspect the impact of the then newish bridge to Skye had not helped the prospects of the hotel either.

I recall thinking it was a sad situation.

 

[Revaulx]

The Great Northern at King’s Cross was always a pretty utilitarian place, as was the LNW’s long-gone Euston. Since its recent refurbishment, the former has become seriously chic.

 

[greyman42]

You could put a tarpaulin over a park bench in Edinburgh and you'd sell it, particularly during the Fringe, you don't get much more touristy.

That is one of the funniest posts i have seen for a bit. The thing is though, is that it is true.

 

[Ploughman]

Stayed in 2 of them.
Tregenna Castle at St Ives back in about 1977.
Part of a 2 night special offer possibly a Merrymaker .

The other was to a London hotel may have been the Great Northern a year or so earlier.

 

[MCG]

I have fond memories of the Adelphi Liverpool. It was the first hotel in which I stayed on business, as a just-out-of-university programmer on assignment at the Girobank (remember them?) in Bootle in 1977.

Although I had little to compare it to, the impression was of faded glory. Huge bedrooms, stately staircase and as someone has already mentioned, a bath you could do lengths in! But all with an air of tattiness.

Nowadays I prefer the bland efficiency of a Hilton.

 

[Djgr]

Lime St still has the LNWR North Western Hotel building on the premises, but it's been under various owners over the years, latterly a hall of residence for John Moores University.
I think it might become a hotel again one day.
The Upper Crust in the basement needs a bomb under it.

The North Western was never in BTH ownership, as it was closed as a hotel by the LMS in 1933.
The LMS also owned the Adelphi, it having been in Midland Railway ownership when last rebuilt (there were several predecessors).

Most of the basement consists of a very busy Wetherspoons does it not?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The North Western Hotel at Lime Street opens in September.

NW Hotel

Radisson is returning the grade two-listed building back to its original use, opening the first North West location for its upscale and playful Radisson RED brand.

North Western Hall dates back to 1871 and sits by Liverpool Lime Street.

The Victorian gem was designed by Alfred Waterhouse, the architect behind Manchester Town Hall, Victoria Gallery & Museum in Liverpool and Rochdale Town Hall. The hotel closed in the 1930s, later becoming student accommodation.

Now its story is set to come full circle – albeit several months later than anticipated.

Originally, the hotel had targeted a March 2022 opening. That date was pushed back due to delays caused by the pandemic. It now plans to open in September.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I have fond memories of the Adelphi Liverpool. It was the first hotel in which I stayed on business, as a just-out-of-university programmer on assignment at the Girobank (remember them?) in Bootle in 1977.

Although I had little to compare it to, the impression was of faded glory. Huge bedrooms, stately staircase and as someone has already mentioned, a bath you could do lengths in! But all with an air of tattiness.

Nowadays I prefer the bland efficiency of a Hilton.

These hotels had (in BTH days - and possibly after) - quality breakfasts , as mentioned before the NPS coffee pots etc , proper china and cutlery -and curled butter. (like Pullman car service was) - impressive for a 21 year old , but at such affordable prices.....

 

[John Luxton]

Indeed, but there won't solely be demand for cheap, bad hotels, just as there are airlines in the market that aren't Ryanair.

The issue is that it's easier and cheaper to build a Premier Inn from scratch (that being the sort of hotel that most people want these days) than it is to convert something like the Adelphi into one. The only way for it to really get a distinguished future these days would be if it was converted into posh flats or even premium student accommodation with some guest rooms for e.g. visiting parents.

I wouldn't say everyone wants a Premier Inn. I for one have never stayed at one ever! My only experience of a chain hotel was Holiday Inn Southampton. I spent two nights there before a cruise to enable me to get a day trip into the Isle of Wight and it is located next to the cruise terminal. There was nothing physically wrong with the hotel - just plain, boring and not particularly cheap. Breakfast was extra and not included. That might suit some but not what I want. Evening meal was just "Little Chef" fare and worse still no decent beer.

Last year I have observed the Premier Inn at Porthmadog taking shape opposite Harbour Station. It will obviously prove very attractive to visitors to the FWHR with half the rooms appearing to overlook the station. However, I don't think this will tempt me away from nearby Portmeirion where one has the choice of two restaurants and bars, beautiful grounds and fantastic views. Whilst one can't see the trains the whistles carry over the hill from the vicinity of Boston Lodge and the Cobb.

After a day on the railway one can come back and relax over a few drinks, in nice weather sit outside, and finish with an excellent meal. Given that it can often be difficult to get a room there unless booked well in advance I guess not everyone does want Premier Inn or their like.

The other thing about most chain hotels I have noticed their adoption of a fluid pricing structure. If there are events on near a particular hotel the prices can go up to silly levels. Traditional hotels generally advertise a price and stick to it.

I like hotels to have character and as well as Portmeirion I visit several others - all independently owned across a range of price levels and they are all excellent for both food and drink!

As for the Adelphi, living in Liverpool I have read countless reports in the Liverpool Echo and on the Echo web site. I have also read the Trip Advisor reviews. - If anyone wants entertainment for half an hour or two you can do no worse than reading TA reviews for any of the B Group Hotels and Holiday camps. Some even mix regular paying guests with illegal immigrants being housed for by the Government.

There are a number of up market hotels in Liverpool, there is no reason why the Adelphi can't reposition itself in the market place - if its owners would give it a makeover. The solution is make part of it including the public rooms the upmarket hotel with the rest of the building turned into luxury apartments. The sale or leasing of which could finance the upgrading of the section retained as a hotel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The public rooms in the Adelphi could easily be used as e.g. an upmarket wedding venue.