171s leaving Southern

[JonathanH]

What available S Stock?

Perhaps the OP thinks that TfL will need to reduce their service levels and release rolling stock in the light of their funding pressures. I agree it seems unlikely that will result.

 

[Journeyman]

Perhaps the OP thinks that TfL will need to reduce their service levels and release rolling stock in the light of their funding pressures. I agree it seems unlikely that will result.

Of course it won't. It's not suitable for anything else anyway.

 

[mmh]

There's also the small (or long) matter of a 10 car 171 train being almost twice the length of an S stock train!

 

[CBlue]

Maybe at this rate the 171s should just remain on the services they work

Seems more viable to me than suggestions of s-stock converted to diesel or specially built loco hauled sets (which solves precisely zero problems while introducing plenty of others...)

 

[Journeyman]

Maybe at this rate the 171s should just remain on the services they work

Seems more viable to me than suggestions of s-stock converted to diesel or specially built loco hauled sets (which solves precisely zero problems while introducing plenty of others...)

But pleases those who consider underfloor engines to be the tool of Beelzebub.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned 442s or HSTs yet!

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe at this rate the 171s should just remain on the services they work

Well that’s been the general consensus for about a week, based on recent rail media reports about the planned TfW > EMR transfer, and discussed in the EMR 170 thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-170-updates.202522/

Probably why this thread seems to veering off into far deeper weeds than normal…

 

[Wolfie]

Perhaps the OP thinks that TfL will need to reduce their service levels and release rolling stock in the light of their funding pressures. I agree it seems unlikely that will result.

That would be short-term at best. The Tube is getting busier by the day.

 

[CBlue]

But pleases those who consider underfloor engines to be the tool of Beelzebub.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned 442s or HSTs yet!

Sleeper stock?

One of these days I'll have to create some RUK bingo cards.

 

[RobShipway]

Of course it won't. It's not suitable for anything else anyway.

It is not as crazy idea as some of had within these forums, such as reusing MK3 stock for another 40 plus years, when it has about 10 - 15 years left of life in it, at most even with electronic doors added.

 

[D365]

It is not as crazy idea as some of had within these forums, such as reusing MK3 stock for another 40 plus years, when it has about 10 - 15 years left of life in it, at most even with electronic doors added.

The difference is that nobody has started a fantasy thread to propose rebuilding S Stock units.

 

[Journeyman]

The difference is that nobody has started a fantasy thread to propose rebuilding S Stock units.

Any volunteers?

 

[Neptune]

Any volunteers?

Just been done on this thread hasn’t it

 

[Wolfie]

The difference is that nobody has started a fantasy thread to propose rebuilding S Stock units.

Yet!

 

[Neptune]

Yet!

I’m surprised nobody has suggested un-shredding the 332’s yet

 

[ainsworth74]

Unlocked

 

[Turtle]

What will be the replacement for the 171’s when they get transferred over to EMR because I’m thinking spending money on installing 3rd rail tracks on the Uckfield line so that EMUs can have access or GTR ordering bi-modes

That solution would be too sensible.

 

[zwk500]

That solution would be too sensible.

If you authorised 3rd rail today it would still take 15-20 years to put it in (because none of the detailed prep work has been done), barring any major technological/organisational revolutions, so there would still be a stock gap. Ordering Bi-Modes is a possible solution, although they would need to be convertible to EMU or Battery EMU at a later stage.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'm a little confused - it was mentioned elsewhere on the forum that 4 Class 171's are due off lease and are coming to EMR.

Given that these are 2 x 4-cars and 2 x 2-cars, presumably these will all be reformed into 4 x 3-car sets?

 

[RailWonderer]

If you authorised 3rd rail today it would still take 15-20 years to put it in (because none of the detailed prep work has been done), barring any major technological/organisational revolutions, so there would still be a stock gap. Ordering Bi-Modes is a possible solution, although they would need to be convertible to EMU or Battery EMU at a later stage.

Getting into crayola territory but to avoid a microfleet order a few more bi modes and have them on East Grinstead diagrams as well, even if they run fully electric you can release a few more 377s to replace 455s and 313s.

 

[JonathanH]

Getting into crayola territory but to avoid a microfleet order a few more bi modes and have them on East Grinstead diagrams as well, even if they run fully electric you can release a few more 377s to replace 455s and 313s.

I think we can 100% disregard any prospect of new rolling stock. 455s will have been replaced by the end of today and it is already known how the 313s are being replaced.

Sticking batteries under some of the 377/3s and making some further cuts to formations and services on the Southern network is the answer for both Uckfield and Marshlink.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I think we can 100% disregard any prospect of new rolling stock. 455s will have been replaced by the end of today and it is already known how the 313s are being replaced.

Sticking batteries under some of the 377/3s and making some further cuts to formations and services on the Southern network is the answer for both Uckfield and Marshlink.

You sure about that, or is that just your opinion?

Don't think you can defintively say that's the answer unless you work for the DfT or GTR.

 

[ABB125]

it is already known how the 313s are being replaced.

I haven't really been keeping up with stuff like this; how are they going to be replaced? (With apologies for diverting the topic!)

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I haven't really been keeping up with stuff like this; how are they going to be replaced? (With apologies for diverting the topic!)

Its not known for certain. Just people with insider knowledge have said what the plan is for 313's and replacement.

 

[JonathanH]

You sure about that, or is that just your opinion?

Don't think you can defintively say that's the answer unless you work for the DfT or GTR.

Point taken.

It does say 'I think' - 100% might be stretching it as I clearly don't know - but the current stock changes don't paint a rosy picture for the Southern network.

 

[fgwrich]

Getting into crayola territory but to avoid a microfleet order a few more bi modes and have them on East Grinstead diagrams as well, even if they run fully electric you can release a few more 377s to replace 455s and 313s.

A Bi-Modal order doesn't sound too silly when you consider that a solution still needs to be found for another London Terminal DMU fleet If we see some logical thinking from the DfT / GBR etc over the next few years, there's still a possibility a Bi-Modal unit could be ordered for both the Southern and South Western (& possibly Great Western perhaps?) fleets. Although that doesn't solve the wish for further 3rd rail electrification, being realistic some routes will never see 3rd rail electrification (eg, West of Salisbury).

 

[bramling]

Point taken.

It does say 'I think' - 100% might be stretching it as I clearly don't know - but the current stock changes don't paint a rosy picture for the Southern network.

I’d have thought if anything they would resurrect the idea of Metro fleet replacement on Southeastern, and move the 376s over to Southern if necessary (possibly leaving the 707s homeless for the second time in their lives!). Likewise there remains the prospect of 379s for GTR if DFT are prepared to authorise paying for them. Allegedly GTR wanted them, hence the solid rumours earlier this year, but DFT wouldn’t agree the terms.

I don’t really see why anyone would need or want to procure anything new for GTR for the foreseeable future, if nothing else they’ve had a pretty good share of new stock over the last few years. That said, one can wish for a Thameslink total fleet replacement!

Uckfield should be electrified, but the timescales are too long to go straight to the final rolling stock solution. Unfortunately, I can see little reason why they won’t simply stick with a reduced 171 fleet and tolerate some overcrowding, especially if it’s inwards of Oxted. The Uckfield line users were pretty vociferous at one point, but I’m not sure if their teeth are as sharp nowadays. I bet there’s not so many bowler hats down there nowadays compared to the 1990s.

 

[foggy69]

The Uckfield line users were pretty vociferous at one point, but I’m not sure if their teeth are as sharp nowadays. I bet there’s not so many bowler hats down there nowadays compared to the 1990s.

Judging by the current service levels, both peak and off-peak, the lines users teeth seem blunt now.

 

[Turtle]

If you authorised 3rd rail today it would still take 15-20 years to put it in (because none of the detailed prep work has been done), barring any major technological/organisational revolutions, so there would still be a stock gap. Ordering Bi-Modes is a possible solution, although they would need to be convertible to EMU or Battery EMU at a later stage.

I take your point that the effect would not not be immediate but 15-20 years?
As it happens I'm currently reading "Alfred Raworth's Electric Southern Railway" where the speed of conversion to 3rd rail electrification is extraordinary.
Even allowing for the effects of modern health and safety regulations I feel your time frame is unduly pessimistic.

 

[dastocks]

My own thoughts are that the ideal solution would be something that allows a return to the pre-1987 practice of trains dividing/joining at Oxted. This would
- reduce the number of paths required through East Croydon
- enable a through service to Victoria
- avoid running large amounts of air between Oxted and Uckfield.

Options might include:

- a hauled MU with an electro-diesel (73/?) on one end that can operate with an EMU used for the East Grinstead service.
- a bi-mode unit that can operate with an EMU as above.

Battery power could be substituted for diesel if it can be made to work.

Whatever option is chosen would, ideally, also be suitable for Marshlink and the North Downs line. The benefit for Marshlink would be that the unit could be run as a portion of a longer train (joining/dividing at Hastings, Ore, or maybe Eastbourne) in order to provide a through service between Ashford and Lewes/Brighton.

I think we're probably stuck with the existing setup until a major new build of rolling stock comes along. This will be due to one or more of a substantial increase in demand, or when some of the existing stock reaches its end of life.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think we can 100% disregard any prospect of new rolling stock. 455s will have been replaced by the end of today and it is already known how the 313s are being replaced.

Sticking batteries under some of the 377/3s and making some further cuts to formations and services on the Southern network is the answer for both Uckfield and Marshlink.

Uckfield has pretty much been proven to be too long a round trip on the batteries.

Bombardier won’t fit batteries to an electrostar unit, the 379 which was fitted for a trial was far from successful and Bombardier is very concerned that trying to fit alternative traction to what is effectively a 20 year old design of train could have the potential to be a class 769 saga mk2. The same goes for all varieties, even 387s might be a physically young train but it’s design dates from the 375s in the early 2000s.

Batteries under Electrostars might sound a simple solution but you can only buy what the manufacturer will sell and a Battery Electrostar isn’t one that’s available!