Should Southern have gotten rid of the 455s?

[Timmyd]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #22 originally in this thread.

The Southern twitter feed is worth a look. Overcrowding been pretty bad in the peaks on the South London trains that have been reduced to 4 or 5 car, especially where services had already been reduced to half hourly. Effectively capacity is 25% of what it was pre-Covid on these lines

 

[PGAT]

The Southern twitter feed is worth a look. Overcrowding been pretty bad in the peaks on the South London trains that have been reduced to 4 or 5 car, especially where services had already been reduced to half hourly. Effectively capacity is 25% of what it was pre-Covid on these lines

25% of the previous timetable. If you go back to pre-covid you would be surprised how many services no longer exist. I don't really know the capacity relative to 3 years ago, but I would guess at least 75% more than today.

 

[bramling]

The Southern twitter feed is worth a look. Overcrowding been pretty bad in the peaks on the South London trains that have been reduced to 4 or 5 car, especially where services had already been reduced to half hourly. Effectively capacity is 25% of what it was pre-Covid on these lines

Question is, does anyone care? I don’t think the government do.

 

[physics34]

The Southern twitter feed is worth a look. Overcrowding been pretty bad in the peaks on the South London trains that have been reduced to 4 or 5 car, especially where services had already been reduced to half hourly. Effectively capacity is 25% of what it was pre-Covid on these lines

I have a sneaky feeling the 379/387 GN to Southern earlier plan may still happen..

 

[Milo T.K]

I have a sneaky feeling the 379/387 GN to Southern earlier plan may still happen..

Hoping it does happen still owing that SN needs a standard fleet and this is a bad time to take out the 455s

 

[JonathanH]

I have a sneaky feeling the 379/387 GN to Southern earlier plan may still happen..

...or there will need to be a reorganisation of the metro services - there has been some suggestion of changes at the September timetable.

Keeping 387s on the GN has distinct advantages over bringing in the 379s.

 

[Mikey C]

The Southern twitter feed is worth a look. Overcrowding been pretty bad in the peaks on the South London trains that have been reduced to 4 or 5 car, especially where services had already been reduced to half hourly. Effectively capacity is 25% of what it was pre-Covid on these lines

The publicity behind the 455 departure did somewhat mask the fact that this wasn't the replacement of older trains by new(er) ones, but rather just a massive reduction in the fleet, which no other operator has had.

And I still feel they have the with the 377s, they also have the wrong type of trains for many of the former 455 routes. Nobody would suggest that SWR operate all their inner London services using 450s, as they're not suitable, especially if you're running shorter trains meaning more people have to stand, or worse, e.g. (from Twitter)

 

[bramling]

...or there will need to be a reorganisation of the metro services - there has been some suggestion of changes at the September timetable.

Keeping 387s on the GN has distinct advantages over bringing in the 379s.

It does, but how else can a quantity of DC Electrostars be freed up? Even if something was done involving Southeastern (possibly utilising the 465/2s), this only realistically allows the remaining 377/5s to move over, as the SE 375s lack bodyside cameras.

This is before we consider the fact that DFT simply don’t seem to care if this all leads to overcrowding. This government aren’t interested in the population full-stop, in fact!

 

[warwickshire]

Southern really do need a rethink. At least till September to bring some 455s back at least on the Caterhams, and most certainly on the peak time Beckenham jcts. 455s on Beckenham jcts surely dosent do anyone any harm.
Even LNWR have peak time 319 diagrams. Southern can at least do the same.. However thought of this stupid decision is far from being real. Also unfair on passengers who have to suffer. This time around unlike the final few weeks of Pacers on northern. The excuse the railway isn't ran around enthusiasts can't be used by anyone.
455s are needed back now even the passengers and regulars are already missing them. Keep on tweeting southern. Keep on complaining to customer services. Get something done.
But will it?

 

[physics34]

...or there will need to be a reorganisation of the metro services - there has been some suggestion of changes at the September timetable.

Keeping 387s on the GN has distinct advantages over bringing in the 379s.

Yeh have heard that TT change rumour too

 

[brad465]

It does, but how else can a quantity of DC Electrostars be freed up? Even if something was done involving Southeastern (possibly utilising the 465/2s), this only realistically allows the remaining 377/5s to move over, as the SE 375s lack bodyside cameras.

This is before we consider the fact that DFT simply don’t seem to care if this all leads to overcrowding. This government aren’t interested in the population full-stop, in fact!

I can't see why 375s would go to Southern anyway, given the other 377/5s currently not going back are already on a sub-lease that would allow easy return, Southeastern probably don't want to lose any 375s, and Southern probably don't want another different type of class to worry about, especially if in a relatively small quantity.

I would like to see the Government being challenged more on the whole public transport situation, particularly if it can be made a sensible alternative to rocketing petrol prices. I imagine though food and energy bills are seen to be of greater concern and there's only so much political bandwidth available.

 

[Southern Dvr]

I can't see why 375s would go to Southern anyway, given the other 377/5s currently not going back are already on a sub-lease that would allow easy return, Southeastern probably don't want to lose any 375s, and Southern probably don't want another different type of class to worry about, especially if in a relatively small quantity.

I would like to see the Government being challenged more on the whole public transport situation, particularly if it can be made a sensible alternative to rocketing petrol prices. I imagine though food and energy bills are seen to be of greater concern and there's only so much political bandwidth available.

There’s only so many hours in the day and not enough of them to hold this government to account on!!

 

[PGAT]

I have a sneaky feeling the 379/387 GN to Southern earlier plan may still happen..

If they get really desperate, they can borrow some more GX 387s that aren’t being used

 

[43096]

The publicity behind the 455 departure did somewhat mask the fact that this wasn't the replacement of older trains by new(er) ones, but rather just a massive reduction in the fleet, which no other operator has had.

No other operator? SWR has lost 18 x 442s, 18 x 707 (so far), 4 x 458, 24 x 456, 6ish x 455 and 1 x 159. Total 275 vehicles, with nothing coming in. That’s significantly more than GTR which has lost 184 vehicles but regained 8 x 377 and 12 x 387 vehicles.

 

[gmaguire]

Imagine if Southern ended up with 319s again. That would be interesting.

 

[JonathanH]

Imagine if Southern ended up with 319s again. That would be interesting.

Extremely unlikely I would have thought. It is clear that the aim is 100% electrostar operation.

 

[Mikey C]

Extremely unlikely I would have thought. It is clear that the aim is 100% electrostar operation.

But why?

Everywhere else, other than Southern and to an extent Thamelink, there is a divide between metro and outer routes, whether with the same operator (e.g. Great Northern, Southeastern, SWR) or with a separate operator operating the metro services (e.g. Overground, Crossrail, Underground etc)

 

[Milo T.K]

I'm pleased to say their legacy lives on, ironically enough in South Wales!

Oh the irony!

But why?

Everywhere else, other than Southern and to an extent Thamelink, there is a divide between metro and outer routes, whether with the same operator (e.g. Great Northern, Southeastern, SWR) or with a separate operator operating the metro services (e.g. Overground, Crossrail, Underground etc)

Fleet standardisation. Better for parts etc.

 

[Mikey C]

No other operator? SWR has lost 18 x 442s, 18 x 707 (so far), 4 x 458, 24 x 456, 6ish x 455 and 1 x 159. Total 275 vehicles, with nothing coming in. That’s significantly more than GTR which has lost 184 vehicles but regained 8 x 377 and 12 x 387 vehicles.

SWR has a MASSIVE order of 701s which will eventually arrive, that's 750 carriages, so clearly it's a short term issue. There's no equivalent metro train waiting for Southern. And the number of GExp 387s is way down from what it was, and have the 377s actually returned yet other than the 2 377/1s?

 

[43096]

SWR has a MASSIVE order of 701s which will eventually arrive, that's 750 carriages, so clearly it's a short term issue. There's no equivalent metro train waiting for Southern. And the number of GExp 387s is way down from what it was, and have the 377s actually returned yet other than the 2 377/1s?

But the SWR fleet is massively down now - and it's increasingly becoming a medium to long term issue given the lack of progress with the 701s. The two 377/1s are the 8 x 377 vehicles I mentioned.

 

[XCTurbostar]

..And the number of GExp 387s is way down from what it was..

Although the GatEx 387s are heavily utilised with just one spare on Saturdays..

 

[Kite159]

Although the GatEx 387s are heavily utilised with just one spare on Saturdays..

They might be heavily utilised in terms of vehicle mileage, but not heavily utilised in terms of passenger usage. More fresh air carriers which would be better used as normal Southern branded services than being a tourist tax airport service. At least it will take some of the pressure from the normal Southern services from Gatwick to London by those in the know.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

They might be heavily utilised in terms of vehicle mileage, but not heavily utilised in terms of passenger usage. More fresh air carriers which would be better used as normal Southern branded services than being a tourist tax airport service. At least it will take some of the pressure from the normal Southern services from Gatwick to London by those in the know.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement, the Gatwick Express services have been quite busy when I've seen them. They are certainly not fresh air carriers. Although I suspect pretty much the majority of passengers are Brighton - London Victoria passengers.

 

[brad465]

In answer to the new thread title, yes they should have got rid of the 455s, as they're among the oldest fleets and presumably reliability was declining as a result. However, the mistake is not fully replacing them to avert at least most of the resultant overcrowding.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Reliability was very good actually. Most units had been through C4 overhauls. The only reason they were dumped is to save money, their loss will stump growth on the network and will lead to severe overcrowding.

In an ideal world, the 455s would have had some modifications to their interiors done to them to make them slightly more comfortable. But they were excellent people movers and until the last couple of months Their reliability was very good indeed.

 

[Kite159]

Yes they should have got rid of the 455s. But had more replacement trains ready to take over. 8 coaches dropping to 5 coaches at a reduced frequency is just asking for trouble with overcrowding.

Especially 8 coaches of 3+2 seating popular with families & other groups to a train with 2+2 mostly airline seats.

But then it is the DFT calling the shots, the passenger experience doesn't matter to them

 

[JonathanH]

If there are overcrowding issues on 5-car trains then hopefully there can be a small rearrangement of the allocations.

Things like:
* swapping pairs of 377/3s off 10-car services for single 377/6s to make 6 and 9 car trains instead of 5 and 10
* reorganising 5-car services to not hit the high peak
* looking for opportunities to cut formations where there is capacity to do so.

The removal of 455s without replacements appears to be a masterstroke in terms of reducing costs. With some tweaking of the diagrams hopefully they won't need to bring anything else into the fleet (other than the mooted 12 377/5s to remove the 313s).

Removing some seats in the relevant 377s to create some more standing areas might also be a worthwhile idea.

 

[physics34]

If there are overcrowding issues on 5-car trains then hopefully there can be a small rearrangement of the allocations.

Things like:
* swapping pairs of 377/3s off 10-car services for single 377/6s to make 6 and 9 car trains instead of 5 and 10
* reorganising 5-car services to not hit the high peak
* looking for opportunities to cut formations where there is capacity to do so.

The removal of 455s without replacements appears to be a masterstroke in terms of reducing costs. With some tweaking of the diagrams hopefully they won't need to bring anything else into the fleet (other than the mooted 12 377/5s to remove the 313s).

Removing some seats in the relevant 377s to create some more standing areas might also be a worthwhile idea.

Reconfiguring 377 into two seperate metro and sussex coast pool should be seriously looked it.
Maybe those overcrowded 5 cars should have 3 cars attached to them at peak times. They still seem very hesitant to mix old and new 377s though.. seemingly because of software issues, but as we know it still happens occasionally

 

[MattRat]

It does, but how else can a quantity of DC Electrostars be freed up? Even if something was done involving Southeastern (possibly utilising the 465/2s), this only realistically allows the remaining 377/5s to move over, as the SE 375s lack bodyside cameras.

This is before we consider the fact that DFT simply don’t seem to care if this all leads to overcrowding. This government aren’t interested in the population full-stop, in fact!

Plus the fact franchising allows them to easily place blame elsewhere. So much so that people are clamouring for them to nationalize rail into their control, when they're the ones causing all the problems....

 

[PGAT]

There seems to be an anomaly in the services. The 1508 from Epsom Downs to London Victoria is only 4 coaches. The 1400 from Victoria to Epsom Downs (the inbound service) detached the front 4 coaches a few minutes prior to the departure and then re-attach at 16:07. I checked real-time trains and it turns out this happens every day. Why is this?