Rail strikes discussion

[Towers]

Nah. Government want this more than anything, classic divide and conquer. And legacy media lap up that narrative too.

Both as bad as each other, then!

 

[Taplowgreen]

I think the first round of strikes will go ahead, but that talks will then take place with a view to averting future strikes.

My guess is that the final pay offer which is accepted by the union will be around 5%.

Whilst Mick Lynch says he is prepared to carry on calling strikes for months on end, he has to consider the amount of money his members will lose each time they go on strike, how that will affect them during the cost of living crisis, and whether there is a realistic prospect of an increased pay offer if there are more strikes.

That sounds like a good call to me - perhaps something similar to the offer ASLEF accepted in Scotland.

 

[ComUtoR]

If the strike is called of last minute you may get passenger services running, but the freight table and crewing are already set in.

I can't remember if it's 1000 this morning or 2200 this evening before the strike timetable is uploaded and set in stone for us.

 

[KM1991]

Both as bad as each other, then!

What one has refused to entertain any meetings despite holding all of the keys?

 

[Edsmith]

Nah. Government want this more than anything, classic divide and conquer. And legacy media lap up that narrative too.

Keep hearing this line that the government want this strike, if that is the case then why give them the strike that they apparently want?

 

[trainstrainstr]

Someone has submitted FOIs to relevant TOCS on WDTK about payments for contingency TMs during strikes. Interesting to see what comes back

Contingency Guard Payment Agreement documents or information. - a Freedom of Information request to London North Eastern Railway Limited

I have seen a document going around social media from Abellio Greater Anglia showing their "Contingency Guard Payment Agreement" for the upcoming strikes next week. The document sets out the full agreement with staff members that are becoming Contingency Guards and the rates of pay that they...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[mpthomson]

What one has refused to entertain any meetings despite holding all of the keys?

The Govt isn't the employer.

 

[Moonshot]

One of the quietest Monday shift I have seen in a good while.....I'm guessing passengers aren't bothering travelling this week at all

 

[KM1991]

The Govt isn't the employer.

Then why are they suppressing pay and enforcing TOCs via contract to follow through with their ambitions regarding modernisation

 

[uglymonkey]

Because they provide the subsidy?

 

[KM1991]

Because they provide the subsidy?

So the employer isn’t being allowed to negotiate with unions because of the government...but the government isn’t necessary in regards to resolving this dispute. Yeah, this convo is pointless

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

IMO, All it would take at this stage is for the government to formally commit to immediate talks within the next few days and strike action would be postponed.

To talk about what?
There's one set of negotiations going on between NR and the RMT (involving I believe modernisation as well as pay).
There's another set of negotiations going on between the TOC managements and the RMT, mainly on pay but with some impending modernisation in the pipeline.
The government can only give a nominal figure for industry pay increases, and that seems to be the 2%+2x0.5% offered by NR.
Productivity improvements leading to a higher pay settlement can only be negotiated at NR/TOC level, with multiple private TOC employment terms and conditions.
It is not a single dispute with a single answer.

 

[KM1991]

To talk about what?
There's one set of negotiations going on between NR and the RMT (involving I believe modernisation as well as pay).
There's another set of negotiations going on between the TOC managements and the RMT, mainly on pay but with some impending modernisation in the pipeline.
The government can only give a nominal figure for industry pay increases, and that seems to be the 2%+2x0.5% offered by NR.
Productivity improvements leading to a higher pay settlement can only be negotiated at NR/TOC level, with multiple private TOC employment terms and conditions.
It is not a single dispute with a single answer.

So get everyone around the table. Most importantly, the very people that are blocking any sort of meaningful negotiations - the government.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Unprofessionalism reached its peak on the 0844 Alton - Waterloo today, as the guard said:

“Industrial action will take place tomorrow, and your journeys must be finished by 6pm. I know this may be inconvenient but imagine you’ve worked for the same poultry some of XXX grand for three years only to be offered a poxy 3% pay rise. The cost of living is rising, so is the cost of food - we cannot afford to put food on the table - we are not seen as worthy of a decent rise…”

He said more but I can’t remember what - it went on for about five minutes. The two SWR staff sat down the carriage (who looked rather high up like officials or something) stared at each other and gaped open mouths. The noisy carriage fell silent and just looked awkward.

Highly unprofessional… somewhat embarrassing even.

 

[Horizon22]

While this is definitely true for those who don’t enjoy the work, I’m not sure I think it should be true for reasonable disputes over pay, in skilled roles on the railway.

If the railway paid ‘market rate’ (and unions magically didn’t exist) such that there was a revolving door of staff, you would have issues with wasted training costs, expensive or disruptive errors being made due to the lack of historical knowledge, and lack of interest in training up new colleagues because you know they’ll probably be gone in a few months.

This is a fair point and misunderstood. Keeping a long-term staff base with lower levels of turnover can cut costs due to no need for extra recruitment, training, expertise loss etc.

One thing that keeps railway staff in their job for long-term is the above average pay and T&Cs. Therefore railway staff being in higher wages than average is, in the long-term not a bad thing. However, as always, people struggle to see beyond headline figures.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can someone clarify a matter for me. One of my neighbours said that he was watching the early morning BBC1 programmes today when the strike was being discussed and he is adamant that he heard some say that Mick Lynch of the RMT is supposed to have said that the RMT would not speak to any Tory government. On a later part of the programme, he said a Labour Party person was insisting that the present Government should involve themselves and he thought that comment was confusing if what Mick Lynch was supposed to have said.

I will promise to tell the neighbour in question was is said in response to this posting request.

 

[KM1991]

Can someone clarify a matter for me. One of my neighbours said that he was watching the early morning BBC1 programmes today when the strike was being discussed and he is adamant that he heard some say that Mick Lynch of the RMT is supposed to have said that the RMT would not speak to any Tory government. On a later part of the programme, he said a Labour Party person was insisting that the present Government should involve themselves and he thought that comment was confusing if what Mick Lynch was supposed to have said.

I will promise to tell the neighbour in question was is said in response to this posting request.

Oh.

 

[Towers]

What one has refused to entertain any meetings despite holding all of the keys?

Has the RMT formerly acknowledged that it will consider any of the Gvmnt's requests as part of any talks, though? We really only ever get a fraction of the story via the media!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2022 ==

So the employer isn’t being allowed to negotiate with unions because of the government...but the government isn’t necessary in regards to resolving this dispute. Yeah, this convo is pointless

Agreed, this is a very relevant point!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh.

Thanks for this image. I have taken a hard-copy of it and have given it to my neighbour.

 

[northwichcat]

Because it is entirely hyperbolic to suggest that someone is going to simply not bother to attend their exam as a result of there being no train service. I note you've come up with a whole lot of excuses and extremely unlikely events. Exams are important life events. Parents and children make significant sacrifices to get the best out of them. I don't agree personally with so much resting on generally two hour or shorter periods but that's the way it is. Most families who are aware they will have this issue will already have either arranged carpooling, or booked a taxi for early on to get them in two hours before the exam starts. And that's only the ones who can't get in by bus and are too far to walk or cycle.

Well, quite. Parents will take a day off work if necessary, or if not given one will pull a sickie. Or if they don't have a car they'll sort a lift with a parent who does. The idea that anyone would miss an exam for this reason is as you say bizarre.

I walked five miles to get to an exam once when my travel plans fell through! For something as essential as exams, people will find a way, particularly given they know in advance the strikes are happening.

It's all very well saying parents will pull a sickie, take a day off work or the kids will walk. However, if you don't know the actual route to their schools, the distance involved or who the parents are you can't conclude that no kids will be unaffected.

The Longridge Estate on the edge of Knutsford was built as an overflow estate for those on Manchester City Council's waiting list for social housing. It's like a little bit of Wythenshawe transplanted in to Cheshire. Not everyone has cars or money for taxis, some rely on food banks. The Catholic families on that estate send their children to St Nicholas High near Greenbank station, that's 10 miles away. The cost of taxis would be very high, even if they are shared.

I notice on the non-strike days Northern have ensured the Rose Hill Marple train needed by schoolkids does operate but the Mid-Cheshire line doesn't get the same treatment. It's like the people making the decisions don't understand the needs of passengers or understand where the train is the only option for some people.

 

[Wolfie]

"will someone please think of the children" Boris et al have much negative press like this planned. Regarding the children, we'll so what, life gets a lot harder than not being able to get a train when you need one.

What a charming attitude. Don't bleat when the vast majority of the population say "so what" when numerous RMT members find themselves unemployed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2022 ==

We don’t all smoke

It's nice to see a bit of light-hearted humour, TY.

 

[windingroad]

What a charming attitude. Don't bleat when the vast majority of the population say "so what" when numerous RMT members find themselves unemployed.

Anyone who said "so what" in that scenario would be pretty heartless.

Whether or not the strikes make life difficult for people, that hardly justifies anyone being thrust into unemployment, and it doesn't justify an empathy deficit. I have empathy for strikers and for the people affected by the strike. Those things are compatible.

 

[michael74]

I will ask a second time, which hospitals have this policy?

Did you get out of the wrong side of your bed this morning?

My point was that you asked a question about what if your hospital does not have sufficient facilities to change.

More of a statement than a question, as you were wrong in stating that hospital staff should not be in uniform away from work.

which I was surprised about as I was not aware of any hospital without these facilities

Why are you surprised, are you aware of every policy and procedure and how those estates are managed for every Trust in the UK?

So please tell which hospitals don't have changing facilities?

I am not telling you as it will make it easier to identify me in this forum based on my previous posts. If you want you can look at the policy and procedures for every NHS Trust (they are in the public domain avaliable on their websites), you will find plenty of trusts that allow staff to travel to and from work in clinical uniform due to a lack of changing facilities. If you choose not to believe me then crack on

 

[Edsmith]

Unprofessionalism reached its peak on the 0844 Alton - Waterloo today, as the guard said:

“Industrial action will take place tomorrow, and your journeys must be finished by 6pm. I know this may be inconvenient but imagine you’ve worked for the same poultry some of XXX grand for three years only to be offered a poxy 3% pay rise. The cost of living is rising, so is the cost of food - we cannot afford to put food on the table - we are not seen as worthy of a decent rise…”

He said more but I can’t remember what - it went on for about five minutes. The two SWR staff sat down the carriage (who looked rather high up like officials or something) stared at each other and gaped open mouths. The noisy carriage fell silent and just looked awkward.

Highly unprofessional… somewhat embarrassing even.

I agree, totally unprofessional. By comparison the guard on my Southeastern train this morning politely declined to discuss the rights and wrongs of the strike with a passenger who was trying their best to engage him in such a debate.

 

[Wolfie]

Civil servants should lose the London Allowance if they aren't travelling into London daily its basically a salary increase that rail workers can't access

TY for an ill-informed off-topic rant about something l do know about. I am a civil servant. Until recently (l am currently recuperating after an operation) l was in my Whitehall office 40% of the time on average. That figure is, other than those who have health issues, pretty typical across all of government (different departments have subtly different policies).

During the pandemic government office space was reduced to save money. We have been told from on high (the Permanent Secretary - i.e. the most senior civil servant in the department - personally) that there is insufficient remaining space for people, other than a few in very specialised roles, to spend much more than 40% of our time in the office.

Oh, and l get absolutely no additional pay to cover the higher utility, broadband (l had to upgrade at additional cost), etc bills which result from working from home. Incidentally, l live in London so incur all the additional costs daily!

 

[Starmill]

However, if you don't know the actual route to their schools, the distance involved or who the parents are you can't conclude that no kids will be unaffected.

I'm not sure anyone is concluding that no children are affected. Indeed many people will be badly inconvenienced. But people are suggesting that you're being hyperbolic to claim exams won't be attended at all.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Given the media has been quoting various rates of pay of railway staff (notably ASLEF drivers) how much does the average hack earn? Also given that many of them are probably members of the NUJ why are they so anti-union in their writings?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unprofessionalism reached its peak on the 0844 Alton - Waterloo today, as the guard said:

“Industrial action will take place tomorrow, and your journeys must be finished by 6pm. I know this may be inconvenient but imagine you’ve worked for the same poultry some of XXX grand for three years only to be offered a poxy 3% pay rise. The cost of living is rising, so is the cost of food - we cannot afford to put food on the table - we are not seen as worthy of a decent rise…”

He said more but I can’t remember what - it went on for about five minutes. The two SWR staff sat down the carriage (who looked rather high up like officials or something) stared at each other and gaped open mouths. The noisy carriage fell silent and just looked awkward.

Highly unprofessional… somewhat embarrassing even.

That would be a meeting without tea and biscuits if I was his manager and heard about it. Employees must never, ever, in any business air their dirty laundry with customers in that manner. If there were managers on board, I suspect that meeting likely took place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2022 ==

I agree, totally unprofessional. By comparison the guard on my Southeastern train this morning politely declined to discuss the rights and wrongs of the strike with a passenger who was trying their best to engage him in such a debate.

Which is the correct answer. "I'm afraid that's a matter between us, our Unions and our employer, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to discuss it here" or somesuch is the right answer to such an approach.

 

[Wolfie]

The reality is that I've never seen anyone refuse when requested to go by management/control. I have, however, seen people moaned at for going without sufficient authorisation—people are generally willing to help out.

Losing that goodwill might be the most harmful thing to come from the current business. As much as staff like to moan, when it comes to it there is an awful lot of goodwill that keeps the place running. If you lose that it all starts to fall apart. I've seen it on a local scale with poor managers, but this is far more pervasive and widespread now.

Now that l recognise. The civil service is no different. Constant attacks on T&Cs not to mention politicians (and the media) constantly trying to deflect the blame for their cockups on us have, though, impaired that significantly.

 

[northwichcat]

Unprofessionalism reached its peak on the 0844 Alton - Waterloo today, as the guard said:

“Industrial action will take place tomorrow, and your journeys must be finished by 6pm. I know this may be inconvenient but imagine you’ve worked for the same poultry some of XXX grand for three years only to be offered a poxy 3% pay rise. The cost of living is rising, so is the cost of food - we cannot afford to put food on the table - we are not seen as worthy of a decent rise…”

He said more but I can’t remember what - it went on for about five minutes. The two SWR staff sat down the carriage (who looked rather high up like officials or something) stared at each other and gaped open mouths. The noisy carriage fell silent and just looked awkward.

Highly unprofessional… somewhat embarrassing even.

That doesn't sound like someone who will be happy if he gets a pay rise. It sounds like someone who wants to leave the industry but knows he'll have to accept lower pay in another industry, so he'll never be happy.