reversing with passengers

[MisterSheeps]

A recent journey (on a 156) southbound on the Cumbrian coast saw us all detrained at Whitehaven bay platform ("due to health & safety"), while the guards exchanged between this & the northbound in the through platform (should have crossed at St Bees, but the southbound was late).

That departed, the bay one went north & came back to the through platform, where we got on again.

Why couldn't we have stayed on the train?

What is different between this, and, say, Coombe Junction (Looe branch)?

Reversal used to happen in places like Scarborough going coastward to Whitby. I sort of understand that traincrew now couldn't exchange track-side, but what's wrong with walking through the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Were they perhaps putting it in a siding not authorised for passenger use?

 

[LAX54]

Part of the rules, if you are 'shunting' a unit / train, then there should normally be no passengers on board.
although I have known it done as long as it uses Main Line Aspects and not GPL's to make the move. (this has been done in failure situations)

 

[Dunnideer]

You’re not permitted to run a passenger train over a set of facing points unless they’re secured for the movement. That means either a facing point lock (FPL) or a clip and scotch. If the crossover isn’t regularly used for passenger moves then it may not have an FPL so it would need to be clipped and scotched - it may have been quicker just to get everyone off rather than wait for someone to attend to secure the points.

 

[Snow1964]

Safety reasons is understandable

But what plonker announced it was for Health reasons too

 

[Surreytraveller]

Its just a cover-all term. It would be better if it was just explained, but then you'd get people not understanding about facing point locks

 

[Gloster]

The layout at Whitehaven appears to be fairly simple: the double-track from the north becomes single and then immediately splits into two, with one line being the bay and the other the through line to the south. Unless there are trap points on the northbound line at the start of the double-track, which a look at Google maps suggests isn’t the case, then all moves will be made over points fitted with Facing Point Locks. It is quite possible that one or other part of the move was not controlled by a signal, so this does look like an overly pedantic rule or interpretation of one.

 

[endofthetunnel]

I don’t know the area but regardless of facing point locks, passenger trains are not allowed to be signalled using shunt signals (with some exceptions, see S7 reg 3) - so if this move wasn’t achievable with main aspect signals then the driver would probably want to detrain.

 

[zwk500]

One

The layout at Whitehaven appears to be fairly simple: the double-track from the north becomes single and then immediately splits into two, with one line being the bay and the other the through line to the south. Unless there are trap points on the northbound line at the start of the double-track, which a look at Google maps suggests isn’t the case, then all moves will be made over points fitted with Facing Point Locks. It is quite possible that one or other part of the move was not controlled by a signal, so this does look like an overly pedantic rule or interpretation of one.

Signal diagram here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/robdaniels/5949856487/sizes/l

The move would need to be made behind a Ground Disc on the northbound line, which is not a main aspect route and therefore not suitable for passenger operation. One reason for this, even with FPLs, is that there is no SPAD protection against the driver of the shunting train starting against the signal at Red, and if a train were to be signalled into the platform either from the opposite end or from the Southbound line, there is a risk of collision.

 

[endofthetunnel]

The diagram confirms the points are motor worked so it will presumably have been the GPL that meant the driver retrained.
GPLs also don’t normally have overlaps beyond them either so there’s risks of the shunting train SPADing at the end of the movement into a conflicting move, among other differences with main aspects.

 

[43096]

I bet the risk assessment on this sort of stuff takes no account of the risks from passengers leaving and entering the train i.e. the risk of PTI incidents.

 

[Dunnideer]

Sorry for wrong routing the thread towards discussions of FPLs. Having seen the box diagram above I agree this will have been a ‘starting a passenger train on a shunt signal’ issue rather than anything to do with securing the points,

 

[Bletchleyite]

I bet the risk assessment on this sort of stuff takes no account of the risks from passengers leaving and entering the train i.e. the risk of PTI incidents.

I doubt you're going to get many of those on a 2 car unit in a bay platform on a line that quiet. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be a lot of risk in doing the manoeuvre with them on board, either.

 

[zwk500]

On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be a lot of risk in doing the manoeuvre with them on board, either.

The rule exists in it's general form because of areas with identical signalling setup where the risks are much higher. If this became a regular occurrence, a Local Instruction for this area could probably be written and inserted in the Sectional Appendix, but given the shunt is probably fairly rare the benefit would be minimal. It's only the crew change that made the shunt necessary, I suspect if that hadn't been required the train would have been held outside the station and the northbound train given priority for a fairly standard passing manoeuvre.

 

[Grumpy]

Reversal used to happen in places like Scarborough going coastward to Whitby. I sort of understand that traincrew now couldn't exchange trackside, but what's wrong with walking through the train?

As I recall used to happen many times a day at Shipley on calling Leeds-Skipton trains before the platform (s) on the northern side of the triangle were built

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As I recall used to happen many times a day at Shipley on calling Leeds-Skipton trains before the platform (s) on the northern side of the triangle were built

Also near Sheffield on services to/from Huddersfield before they were rerouted to go via Barnsley and Dodworth in 1984... but I think we had a thread on such things not too long ago!

 

[ComUtoR]

You’re not permitted to run a passenger train over a set of facing points unless they’re secured for the movement. That means either a facing point lock (FPL) or a clip and scotch. If the crossover isn’t regularly used for passenger moves then it may not have an FPL so it would need to be clipped and scotched - it may have been quicker just to get everyone off rather than wait for someone to attend to secure the points.

Pretty sure I've been through plenty of facing points with passengers.

Could you explain this a little further please, citing any sources if possible. You have peaked my interest.

 

[Dunnideer]

Pretty sure I've been through plenty of facing points with passengers.

Could you explain this a little further please, citing any sources if possible. You have peaked my interest.

Rule book module TS1 section 9 clause 9.2:



It has been a rule since the year dot and I was told that it’s actually required by an act of parliament, one of the Regulation of Railways Acts from 18whatever.

Virtually every modern power operated point machine has an inbuilt FPL so it only becomes an issue having to secure them if the points lose detection.

 

[Signal_Box]

Safety reasons is understandable

But what plonker announced it was for Health reasons too

Unfortunately through no fault of their own many traincrew especially guards don’t know the signalling rules or much outside their required duties.

Your trained these days to know the minimum required for your role, anything else is wasted time and money.

 

[Gloster]

When I started on the Southern in 1978 everybody on the traffic side did a week’s Induction course, which taught us the basics of all the different jobs outside the clerical side. Not a complete course, but enough to get an idea of what others were doing. We were also shown a few basic things that were useful to know: how to fix a detonator on the rail, how to operate a hook-switch, how to put on a point clip, etc.

 

[dk1]

All depends whether there are point locks on the particular crossover used. Unless they are clipped the passengers would need to disembark. Reversing confused me initially as I read the thread as propelling which of course is a definite no no.

 

[Peter0124]

Im fairly sure a passenger train has reversed at Exhibition Centre at one point during disruption and used the points in the tunnel towards Anderston, which is rarely used for anything other than ECS moves. I stand to be corrected.

 

[dk1]

Im fairly sure a passenger train has reversed at Exhibition Centre at one point during disruption and used the points in the tunnel towards Anderston, which is rarely used for anything other than ECS moves. I stand to be corrected.

But do they have point locks? If yes then that would be permitted.

 

[Peter0124]

But do they have point locks? If yes then that would be permitted.

I've no idea, Id say so though.

 

[Dunnideer]

Virtually all power operated point machines have a built in facing point lock. Some early machines would drive a seperate mechanical lock but there are very few of them left.

It only really becomes an issue with mechically operated points where there’s no FPL provided or where points lose normal or reverse detection.

 

[ComUtoR]

Rule book module TS1 section 9 clause 9.2:

Many thanks,

Com.

 

[zwk500]

All depends whether there are point locks on the particular crossover used. Unless they are clipped the passengers would need to disembark. Reversing confused me initially as I read the thread as propelling which of course is a definite no no.

Signal diagram is linked to above, post #9. Both sets are motor worked, so have inbuilt FPLs. Additionally, the only move made over a non-passenger route is a trailing move over the 1st set of points. It's the lack of a main aspect signal to reverse behind that's the issue here.

 

[dk1]

Signal diagram is linked to above, post #9. Both sets are motor worked, so have inbuilt FPLs. Additionally, the only move made over a non-passenger route is a trailing move over the 1st set of points. It's the lack of a main aspect signal to reverse behind that's the issue here.

Cheers.

 

[Lineside SE]

I remember riding on a Class 422 Wessex unit out of London Waterloo along the South West Mainline that performed a reverse move to run wrong line passed an engineering block. This would have been sometime in the mid 1990s. This is the only time I can remember experiencing a train reversing on the mainline as a passenger, presumably this was a planned move but it certainly felt odd and surprising.

 

[Ken H]

Signal diagram is linked to above, post #9. Both sets are motor worked, so have inbuilt FPLs. Additionally, the only move made over a non-passenger route is a trailing move over the 1st set of points. It's the lack of a main aspect signal to reverse behind that's the issue here.

I am sure i rode trains in the 60s and 70s (when i was a kid) that moved under the authority of a shunt signal. Has the rule changed?