Why I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a physical ticket

[malc-c]

As mentioned I'm not a frequent traveller, and when I do travel I prefer to have a physical ticket be that one from the booking office or a printed e-ticket. But I would like to ask a question (I was going to say hypothetical but I bet it has happened) and that is what happens if when asked to show a ticket and someone with an electronic ticket or proof they are permitted to travel on the train is not able to do so for one reason or another (battery died, lost phone etc or any other reason). I presume they would get treated in the same way that anyone else who couldn't produce a ticket would be treated and receive a penalty notice or reported in accordance with whatever procedure the TOC operate under? - But after the event could prove that they had purchased a ticket to travel. Would that stop any TOC pursuing the case ?

I see quite a few people are saying paper tickets can be lost... How often do people loose a £20 not from their wallet? not often, and IMO paper tickets are no different. Print them off and stick them in your wallet / purse. Most of us are very cautious about looking after our money so less chance of loosing the tickets as well.

Just an afterthought, with tickets that require you to travel on a specific train as you are given a coach and seat number, is this information available to the ticket inspector on the train. If it were and the traveller was unable to show the ticket as his/her phone was lost or broken, then their personal information could be cross-referenced against the list of people booked on the train. Possibly confirmed by the traveller by showing some form of ID or the card the ticket may have been purchased with? - This would seem logical to me, given the technology

 

[Bletchleyite]

By placing a mail order to be delivered to not-their-address??

Potentially yes. They don't want the item, they want to check that the card is accepted so they can then move onto bigger stuff. Also, delivering to another address might trigger the fraud checking.

And how would they know that I have an account with that particular merchant?

How would they know the account you have with that merchant is genuine?

Wouldn't they rather test a stolen card by buying a packet of doughnuts in the high street, to get an immediate result?

They may not have the physical card, just number/expiry/CVV/postcode.

 

[Haywain]

I see quite a few people are saying paper tickets can be lost... How often do people loose a £20 not from their wallet? not often, and IMO paper tickets are no different

It doesn't really matter how often it happens - once is enough if it's a ticket that's cost £100 or the loss results in you having to pay that sort of amount.

 

[Spamcan81]

Well you're lucky then as I know of many instances where people have lost printed tickets.
C

It doesn't really matter how often it happens - once is enough if it's a ticket that's cost £100 or the loss results in you having to pay that sort of amount.

I suspect people losing paper tickets is no more nor less common than people having trouble with tickets stored on smart devices. I have lost a paper ticket and I have had a mobile phone just die on me so sh!t can happen whatever ticketing method you use.

 

[Deafdoggie]

As mentioned I'm not a frequent traveller, and when I do travel I prefer to have a physical ticket be that one from the booking office or a printed e-ticket. But I would like to ask a question (I was going to say hypothetical but I bet it has happened) and that is what happens if when asked to show a ticket and someone with an electronic ticket or proof they are permitted to travel on the train is not able to do so for one reason or another (battery died, lost phone etc or any other reason). I presume they would get treated in the same way that anyone else who couldn't produce a ticket would be treated and receive a penalty notice or reported in accordance with whatever procedure the TOC operate under? - But after the event could prove that they had purchased a ticket to travel. Would that stop any TOC pursuing the case ?

I see quite a few people are saying paper tickets can be lost... How often do people loose a £20 not from their wallet? not often, and IMO paper tickets are no different. Print them off and stick them in your wallet / purse. Most of us are very cautious about looking after our money so less chance of loosing the tickets as well.

Just an afterthought, with tickets that require you to travel on a specific train as you are given a coach and seat number, is this information available to the ticket inspector on the train. If it were and the traveller was unable to show the ticket as his/her phone was lost or broken, then their personal information could be cross-referenced against the list of people booked on the train. Possibly confirmed by the traveller by showing some form of ID or the card the ticket may have been purchased with? - This would seem logical to me, given the technology

I can't remember loosing a paper ticket. But then I can't remember my phone ever dieing unexpectedly either! This forum does have rough luck with phones. A full charge on mine and minimal usage it'll last days. That would be a massive delay repay claim if my phone died! Even on a full charge it'll easily do a day when I'm on it pretty much all the time. I think forum members who struggle to get a train journey out of their phones battery ought to tell the rest of us what phone it is so we can avoid them! But I'm not aware of any new phone that can't manage an average train journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't remember loosing a paper ticket. But then I can't remember my phone ever dieing unexpectedly either! This forum does have rough luck with phones. A full charge on mine and minimal usage it'll last days. That would be a massive delay repay claim if my phone died! Even on a full charge it'll easily do a day when I'm on it pretty much all the time. I think forum members who struggle to get a train journey out of their phones battery ought to tell the rest of us what phone it is so we can avoid them! But I'm not aware of any new phone that can't manage an average train journey.

I've run one down by e.g. watching the Games on it last weekend! But I expected that would happen and took a power bank. It's not at all hard to anticipate.

I didn't have an e-ticket, though, as I inexplicably wasn't offered one!

 

[Ken H]

I can't remember loosing a paper ticket. But then I can't remember my phone ever dieing unexpectedly either! This forum does have rough luck with phones. A full charge on mine and minimal usage it'll last days. That would be a massive delay repay claim if my phone died! Even on a full charge it'll easily do a day when I'm on it pretty much all the time. I think forum members who struggle to get a train journey out of their phones battery ought to tell the rest of us what phone it is so we can avoid them! But I'm not aware of any new phone that can't manage an average train journey.

not everyne has a new phone. I have an oldish phone and it works for what I need. But I could not trust it to always be working to use it as a rail ticket. I dont do enough train rides to make getting a new phone worthwhile for me. I dont need a phone for buses now as i have an ENCTS, and anyway, they take cash.

 

[Haywain]

I have lost a paper ticket and I have had a mobile phone just die on me so sh!t can happen whatever ticketing method you use.

The difference being that with the eTicket there is a decent chance you can retrieve it. With a paper ticket you have to suck up buying a replacement.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I've run one down by e.g. watching the Games on it last weekend! But I expected that would happen and took a power bank. It's not at all hard to anticipate.

I didn't have an e-ticket, though, as I inexplicably wasn't offered one!

So you were double prepared! Effectively you have to watch video all day to run the battery down. Most trains have charging points too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you were double prepared! Effectively you have to watch video all day to run the battery down. Most trains have charging points too.

About 2 hours of streaming video was enough on my iPhone 13 Mini including having used it for listening to music on the train there. But the Mini does have a smaller battery than the regular iPhone. In the end you know your phone and it's very easy to judge if a charge is likely needed or not, and if taking a bag why not just take a power bank anyway? They're not big, heavy or expensive.

 

[BingMan]

I whole-heartedly agree that the rovers and rangers need more publicity and to be available both on-line and from ticket machines. Perhaps the TOCs don't want folks to be too aware of them.

And on train guards should be trained to issue rovers and rangers.
On a recent trip my very clued up travelling companion had to talk the guard through issuing a greater Manchester day ranger

I agree that ToC just like to have these tickets available for publicity purposes but prefer not to sell them

Personally, I prefer to buy online and usually will print out a "hard copy" too, and if I'm carrying a bag will also have a fully charged power bank in case of any mobile phone battery farces.

Many trains have phone charging points on board.

 

[AM9]

A full charge on mine and minimal usage it'll last days. That would be a massive delay repay claim if my phone died!

Who would be claiming delay repay from whom?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Who would be claiming delay repay from whom?

If my phone ran out of battery after days, it would be a massively delayed journey. I never plan any journey that takes days!

 

[AM9]

If my phone ran out of battery after days, it would be a massively delayed journey. I never plan any journey that takes days!

But there's no claim against anybody, because it would be your failing.

 

[AlbertBeale]

You can check your balance at an ATM before shopping then work out how much shopping you can get, why is this any different to what cash is in your wallet that you've taken out of an ATM. The Card is just the same as cash the difference is you can cancel it if you lose it you cannot do that with cash, and in some cases will be refundable this system is far safer than cash, why would you be against a system that protects the money of those most vulnerable?

The whole point is that for some people that's a serious and worrying hassle - they can do without the need to "work things out" (which some people can't easily do anyway) when they could see things clearly as they go along if using traditional methods. Do you know what it's like to not be sure whether you can buy enough food? Having the cash in front of you means you can stop buying when it's running out. I don't understand this fetish for trying to force often vulnerable people to use electronic methods in lieu of simple and obvious physical methods, and then - when it's pointed out that this causes problems - say well, they can get over the problem by doing this extra step too ... hence making electronic methods even more alienating and hassly. Many of us love (some at least) modern technology - but it's really not always the easiest way do do something, especially something basic that doesn't require any of the extra sophistication that technology sometimes provides; physical methods, for all their downsides, are often just simpler.

 

[Merseysider]

But there's no claim against anybody, because it would be your failing.

I believe @Deafdoggie was suggesting that if their phone died whilst undertaking a journey, it would be because that journey was seriously delayed, and would thus entitle them to a large delay repay claim.

 

[Spamcan81]

The difference being that with the eTicket there is a decent chance you can retrieve it. With a paper ticket you have to suck up buying a replacement.

It was back in the days of Edmonson sized tickets on LT. Cost about 6d and I managed to convince the gateline staff that I'd genuinely lost it and wasn't trying to pull a fast one.

The whole point is that for some people that's a serious and worrying hassle - they can do without the need to "work things out" (which some people can't easily do anyway) when they could see things clearly as they go along if using traditional methods. Do you know what it's like to not be sure whether you can buy enough food? Having the cash in front of you means you can stop buying when it's running out. I don't understand this fetish for trying to force often vulnerable people to use electronic methods in lieu of simple and obvious physical methods, and then - when it's pointed out that this causes problems - say well, they can get over the problem by doing this extra step too ... hence making electronic methods even more alienating and hassly. Many of us love (some at least) modern technology - but it's really not always the easiest way do do something, especially something basic that doesn't require any of the extra sophistication that technology sometimes provides; physical methods, for all their downsides, are often just simpler.

And there's those with a dodgy credit history that can't get a card so cannot pay by that method and need to use cash.

And on train guards should be trained to issue rovers and rangers.
On a recent trip my very clued up travelling companion had to talk the guard through issuing a greater Manchester day ranger

I agree that ToC just like to have these tickets available for publicity purposes but prefer not to sell them


Many trains have phone charging points on board.

Not all and of those that do, not all work.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I believe @Deafdoggie was suggesting that if their phone died whilst undertaking a journey, it would be because that journey was seriously delayed, and would thus entitle them to a large delay repay claim.

Thank you. That's exactly what I meant. You expressed it much better than i

 

[AM9]

The whole point is that for some people that's a serious and worrying hassle - they can do without the need to "work things out" (which some people can't easily do anyway) when they could see things clearly as they go along if using traditional methods. Do you know what it's like to not be sure whether you can buy enough food? Having the cash in front of you means you can stop buying when it's running out. I don't understand this fetish for trying to force often vulnerable people to use electronic methods in lieu of simple and obvious physical methods, and then - when it's pointed out that this causes problems - say well, they can get over the problem by doing this extra step too ... hence making electronic methods even more alienating and hassly. Many of us love (some at least) modern technology - but it's really not always the easiest way do do something, especially something basic that doesn't require any of the extra sophistication that technology sometimes provides; physical methods, for all their downsides, are often just simpler.

I agree totally. There seem to be many here who just don't understand what living on an income that barely covers essentials is like, (or they conveniently forget it because it doesn't help their line of dicussion). I have no financial issues in retirement and hopefully will see my days out like that, but I do clearly remember my early family days in the '70s when aside from a large mortgage, I had a running deficit on my salary of about 2 months. Every so often, the bank would send me a snotty letter with the usual 'were warning you for your own wellbeing' (and charging my account for the letter) usually followed up by a delayed payment of that month's mortgage. Despite some help from fasmily that period lasted for about 5-10 years when my chidren were at school.
Not very comfortable, but we did take steps to budget monthly, some of which involved drawing cash which we physically put into various piles. Jump forward to 2022, we now have inflation that is approaching late '70s rates, those in a similar position to mine in the past have a much bigger problem with prices of energy and food racing away from affordability. Food banks outside absolutely depressed areas or wartime were unheard of, but are now becoming fundamental to families getting basic living needs even in erstwhile well to do areas.
Ironically, all of the cashless society advocates here keep banging on about how vulnerable cash itself is, yet the focus of the majority of fraudsters and thieves is valuables, credit fraud and high value motor vehicles. Burgulars work in wealthy areas, not impoverished communities because those for whom hard cash is critical, look after it and there's insufficient reward for a thief vs the risk of getting caught.
Now mobile phones, with access to a person's assets are a much more attractive target, so all this scaremongering about losing cash or paper tickets is a red herring.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Now mobile phones, with access to a person's assets are a much more attractive target, so all this scaremongering about losing cash or paper tickets is a red herring.

I wouldn't say a red herring. Certainly I'd agree you're more likely to have a phone stolen than a ticket, but stealing isn't the only way to lose something. A ticket can be lost more easily than a phone.

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn't say a red herring. Certainly I'd agree you're more likely to have a phone stolen than a ticket, but stealing isn't the only way to lose something. A ticket can be lost more easily than a phone.

Indeed. I've lost cash and paper tickets, or I forgot to pack/bring them. I've not lost a phone but if I did , the e-tickets could be shown on another device

I agree totally. There seem to be many here who just don't understand what living on an income that barely covers essentials is like, (or they conveniently forget it because it doesn't help their line of dicussion). I have no financial issues in retirement and hopefully will see my days out like that, but I do clearly remember my early family days in the '70s when aside from a large mortgage, I had a running deficit on my salary of about 2 months. Every so often, the bank would send me a snotty letter with the usual 'were warning you for your own wellbeing' (and charging my account for the letter) usually followed up by a delayed payment of that month's mortgage. Despite some help from fasmily that period lasted for about 5-10 years when my chidren were at school.
Not very comfortable, but we did take steps to budget monthly, some of which involved drawing cash which we physically put into various piles. Jump forward to 2022, we now have inflation that is approaching late '70s rates, those in a similar position to mine in the past have a much bigger problem with prices of energy and food racing away from affordability. Food banks outside absolutely depressed areas or wartime were unheard of, but are now becoming fundamental to families getting basic living needs even in erstwhile well to do areas.
Ironically, all of the cashless society advocates here keep banging on about how vulnerable cash itself is, yet the focus of the majority of fraudsters and thieves is valuables, credit fraud and high value motor vehicles. Burgulars work in wealthy areas, not impoverished communities because those for whom hard cash is critical, look after it and there's insufficient reward for a thief vs the risk of getting caught.
Now mobile phones, with access to a person's assets are a much more attractive target, so all this scaremongering about losing cash or paper tickets is a red herring.

I don't understand your argument. People on low incomes can and do use online/ cashless payments.

One of the organisations I carry out work for has a significant proportion of customers who are on low incomes (such as meeting the 'free school meals' threshold) and they generally make payments through online means rather than by cash.

 

[AM9]

I wouldn't say a red herring. Certainly I'd agree you're more likely to have a phone stolen than a ticket, but stealing isn't the only way to lose something. A ticket can be lost more easily than a phone.

I don't agree with that at all. Every time I travel by rail, my ticket(s) go in my card wallet, and only come out for checking seat reservations, inserting into ticket gates or inspection by staff. As I've said many times before, looking after a credit card sized pieces of paper/card/plastic is second nature to the majority of people. Conversely, having a dead weight phone too big for most pockets, - especially when sitting, weighs nearl 1/2 pound is a far bigger risk and can easily be picked up whilst travelling.

Indeed. I've lost cash and paper tickets, or I forgot to pack/bring them. I've not lost a phone but if I did , the e-tickets could be shown on another device


I don't understand your argument. People on low incomes can and do use online/ cashless payments.

One of the organisations I carry out work for has a significant proportion of customers who are on low incomes (such as meeting the 'free school meals' threshold) and they generally make payments through online means rather than by cash.

But many have problems controlling spend when it is is for most of the time, virtual, - a problem that didn't beset those who were managing their pioverty with hard cash.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I don't agree with that at all. Every time I travel by rail, my ticket(s) go in my card wallet, and only come out for checking seat reservations, inserting into ticket gates or inspection by staff. As I've said many times before, looking after a credit card sized pieces of paper/card/plastic is second nature to the majority of people. Conversely, having a dead weight phone too big for most pockets, - especially when sitting, weighs nearl 1/2 pound is a far bigger risk and can easily be picked up whilst travelling.

That's ok if you only have one paper ticket. But if you've got lots it's more problematic. I'd say 80% or more of the population manage just fine carrying a phone all day without issue.

 

[yorkie]

I don't agree with that at all. Every time I travel by rail, my ticket(s) go in my card wallet, and only come out for checking seat reservations, inserting into ticket gates or inspection by staff. As I've said many times before, looking after a credit card sized pieces of paper/card/plastic is second nature to the majority of people. Conversely, having a dead weight phone too big for most pockets, - especially when sitting, weighs nearl 1/2 pound is a far bigger risk and can easily be picked up whilst travelling.

But as I said above, I then need to keep track of which tickets I have or haven't collected from a TVM, store those tickets somewhere, and then remember to pack the tickets when I need to. I often do multi hop trips so I used to have to think carefully about which tickets to bring as not all my trips are day trips by any means.

I am glad I no longer have to keep tabs on which tickets I have collected or haven't.

But many have problems controlling spend when it is is for most of the time, virtual, - a problem that didn't beset those who were managing their pioverty with hard cash.

That's an opinion but there are others who may prefer their spending to be made visible on a list online. Other opinions are just as valid, but if you look at what the majority choose to do, it's not what you are saying.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I don't understand your argument. People on low incomes can and do use online/ cashless payments.

One of the organisations I carry out work for has a significant proportion of customers who are on low incomes (such as meeting the 'free school meals' threshold) and they generally make payments through online means rather than by cash.

Of course - some (poor people) do (often use electronic payment methods). But vulnerability is more multi-faceted than simply being very poor. However much some people say they don't understand it, for a not-insignificant number of people, keeping track of things indirectly (ie without the physical cash in front of them) is a worrying burden.

As others have pointed out, people whose lives are not well-ordered, or have inadequacies of various sorts, often simply can't cope with technology that many people find easy.

And some people fail to have technology like mobile phones to hand, or have no cards to use for payment, precisely because of their poverty or difficult financial history.

[And I know from my own experience how things can go wrong with cards. One payment card I've had since the last century, and always used within my means and paid off promptly, stopped working without warning a while ago. It took multiple phone calls to sort out what was going on. (Regulations have changed, and finance institutions need more validation and checks than when I first had that card. Without that extra stuff, their "rules" meant suspending the card account. Which they did, despite not having first written to tell me what they wanted. I got different answers every time I asked about the problem. I sent what they wanted, etc etc etc. But it went round and round for weeks before the card suddenly started working again.) The moral being - non-physical things are vulnerable in frustrating ways. If I was someone who had just that one card, and relied on it, and if I was less able to argue my corner...]

 

[yorkie]

Of course - some (poor people) do (often use electronic payment methods). But vulnerability is more multi-faceted than simply being very poor. However much some people say they don't understand it, for a not-insignificant number of people, keeping track of things indirectly (ie without the physical cash in front of them) is a worrying burden.

As others have pointed out, people whose lives are not well-ordered, or have inadequacies of various sorts, often simply can't cope with technology that many people find easy.

And some people fail to have technology like mobile phones to hand, or have no cards to use for payment, precisely because of their poverty or difficult financial history.

[And I know from my own experience how things can go wrong with cards. One payment card I've had since the last century, and always used within my means and paid off promptly, stopped working without warning a while ago. It took multiple phone calls to sort out what was going on. (Regulations have changed, and finance institutions need more validation and checks than when I first had that card. Without that extra stuff, their "rules" meant suspending the card account. Which they did, despite not having first written to tell me what they wanted. I got different answers every time I asked about the problem. I sent what they wanted, etc etc etc. But it went round and round for weeks before the card suddenly started working again.) The moral being - non-physical things are vulnerable in frustrating ways. If I was someone who had just that one card, and relied on it, and if I was less able to argue my corner...]

Ok so a small (and reducing) proportion of people want to continue to pay by cash. They can continue to do so regardless of whether there is a ticket office at their origin station or not (increasingly there will not be).

 

[alxndr]

The moral being - non-physical things are vulnerable in frustrating ways. If I was someone who had just that one card, and relied on it, and if I was less able to argue my corner...]

I think that's just made me realise why it is that I'm so keen on physical tickets. The only way a physical ticket can disappear is by being lost. That is something that is down to me and I only have myself to blame if I lose it. An e-ticket can be lost by things outwith my control (phones breaking, phone chargers failing, apps refusing to cooperate etc).

[Before someone says it: yes, I could print an e-ticket, but that is more steps, I have to be near a printer, the only ticket I've ever lost was a printed e-ticket because I'd not spent more time cutting it down to size and therefore it didn't fit in my wallet]

 

[yorkie]

I think that's just made me realise why it is that I'm so keen on physical tickets. The only way a physical ticket can disappear is by being lost. That is something that is down to me and I only have myself to blame if I lose it. An e-ticket can be lost by things outwith my control (phones breaking, phone chargers failing, apps refusing to cooperate etc).

[Before someone says it: yes, I could print an e-ticket, but that is more steps, I have to be near a printer, the only ticket I've ever lost was a printed e-ticket because I'd not spent more time cutting it down to size and therefore it didn't fit in my wallet]

I'm not convinced that for most people printing an e ticket is really "more steps" than going out of your way to go to a TVM to print it?

Outside rail, for many venues/events e-tickets are the only option these days.

E-tickets do not require apps to connect; you are thinking of m-tickets

 

[Envy123]

Could an excess from off peak to anytime be issued without a ticket office? I had to get an excess lately because I finished work earlier.

 

[Ken H]

I'm not convinced that for most people printing an e ticket is really "more steps" than going out of your way to go to a TVM to print it?

Outside rail, for many venues/events e-tickets are the only option these days.

E-tickets do not require apps to connect; you are thinking of m-tickets

how many people have a printer (Many just use the office printer for the odd bits of printing they need). And when did it last get used. An inkjet will stop working as the ink in the jets dries out.
And the number of people who struggle to get the bl00dy printer to connect to their device. Oher forums are full of people complaining about their printer. I never tried to get mine to work wireless. I just plug a USB cable into my pc. And I work in IT.
Actually, I dont know when I last printed with my scanner/printer. Whether it will work if I needed to print I don't know.
Tech is good when it works. but if it goes wrong it can spoil your day big time.