Avanti West Coast cancellations

[footprints]

DfT have allowed Avanti to implement a 5tph emergency timetable. The fact Avanti still can’t resource the emergency timetable is down to Avanti’s gross incompetence: you don’t propose an emergency timetable you then can’t deliver.

Isn't the emergency timetable just at weekends though? Not that they can deliver it then of course, either, but it urgently needs to be rolled out across the whole week.

 

[43066]

With this double tripping thing, can there not be an agreement reached that says (for example) the diagrams with double tripping can only represent a total of 50% of the long term diagrams for that particular depot?

Or by limiting the number of times they can be rostered per driver, eg ours is max two double trips per week. If you swap into one, or cop one as RDW, that doesn’t count towards the total, but max two from the base roster or spare.

 

[D1537]

It looks like the 1147 from Liverpool is now running but we’ve lost the 1247 instead.
Noticed on RTT that the remaining 0747 and 1147 are booked only 9 car, yet 11 car assigned to the 0700 non-stop which is hardly a high loader, so doesn't seem to be much effort to mitigate today‘s problem, set-wise.

Now the 1147 has gone again but the 1047 is running (and the 1247 is as well).

The 1047 hasn't left LIV yet according to RTT though.

Edit: left 23 late.

 

[Energy]

Yes. I don't get the impression the main issues with LNER were things visible to passengers but a problem with the contract terms.

VTEC's problems were over optimistic financial targets, the delay in the Azumas entering service and ECML upgrades meant that VTEC weren't growing as fast as they needed to be to afford the franchise payments.

 

[Efini92]

What could you realistically do, other than a double Birmingham?

Nothing really, unless they upped the speed to 250mph

 

[bramling]

There is so much demand for railway jobs I can't see this being an actual issue. This is caused by management incompetence, not a lack of applicants. Not that I am suggesting it, but you could take £10K off driver pay and still get several applicants per post.

The problem with this is you can have as many applicants per post as you like, but in the case of grades like driver they need to be of a decent standard. My place for one has been finding this a problem in recent times.

 

[Efini92]

VTEC's problems were over optimistic financial targets, the delay in the Azumas entering service and ECML upgrades meant that VTEC weren't growing as fast as they needed to be to afford the franchise payments.

Didn’t they have unrealistic growth figures as well? I can’t remember the exact amount but I’m sure it was something like after 10 years the number of passengers would double.

 

[43066]

The problem with this is you can have as many applicants per post as you like, but in the case of grades like driver they need to be of a decent standard. My place for one has been finding this a problem in recent times.

Indeed.

There’s also a big difference between trainee and qualified driver recruitment. Qualifieds are a known quantity, and *much* quicker/cheaper to get productive, but it’s a far smaller market.

Nothing really, unless they upped the speed to 250mph

Just wait until HS2 starts .

 

[Efini92]

Just wait until HS2 starts .

“What are you on today?”

“5 Londons”

 

[Bletchleyite]

“What are you on today?”

“5 Londons”

This really needs getting rid of (buying out, if necessary) - interworking reduces punctuality and reliability by causing an incident on one branch to affect another branch even if it needn't do so, and by making getting things back on time far more complex than just cancelling a round trip and leaving the unit and crew in a siding. The simpler the diagrams, the better.

It was a big part of the issue with the LNR cross-Birmingham working, and Avanti would be more punctual/reliable if it was avoided.

 

[LowLevel]

This really needs getting rid of (buying out, if necessary) - interworking reduces punctuality and reliability by causing an incident on one branch to affect another branch even if it needn't do so, and by making getting things back on time far more complex than just cancelling a round trip and leaving the unit and crew in a siding. The simpler the diagrams, the better.

Monotonous shuttle diagrams are known however to increase the risk of operational incidents. There is a happy medium to strike, but bouncing up and down the same route for 10 hours with varying stopping patterns is asking for trouble.

We have jobs where we work 3 trips back to back to Worksop. By the end of it you don't know whether you're coming or going.

 

[The Chimaera]

We have a couple of diagrams covering over 500 miles driving which, fair to say, is a long day out!

I’d imagine Avanti’s max driving mileage is slightly less than that due to no double tripping, albeit they will do things like drive London - Birmingham, pass Birmingham - Manchester, drive Manchester - London, so no less time wise.

Rather than double trip (and all the problems with boredom and over familiarity that would bring) Virgin introduced triangular working instead. Brum-Pres-Eus-Brum for instance. These come in at over 400 miles per shift whilst varying the routes covered slightly better.

 

[43066]

This really needs getting rid of (buying out, if necessary) - interworking reduces punctuality and reliability by causing an incident on one branch to affect another branch even if it needn't do so, and by making getting things back on time far more complex than just cancelling a round trip and leaving the unit and crew in a siding. The simpler the diagrams, the better.

It was a big part of the issue with the LNR cross-Birmingham working, and Avanti would be more punctual/reliable if it was avoided.

Not sure that necessarily follows when units have to interwork anyway for diagramming reasons and to maximise utilisation? Minimising crew changes en route is obviously desirable, but having crew doing a trip from start to end and then working start to end to different destination doesn’t necessarily make reliability worse.

If every unit and crew member just stayed together all day you’d end up with less efficient utilisation overall (at least that’s my understanding - hasten to add I’m not a train planner!).

 

[bramling]

This really needs getting rid of (buying out, if necessary) - interworking reduces punctuality and reliability by causing an incident on one branch to affect another branch even if it needn't do so, and by making getting things back on time far more complex than just cancelling a round trip and leaving the unit and crew in a siding. The simpler the diagrams, the better.

It was a big part of the issue with the LNR cross-Birmingham working, and Avanti would be more punctual/reliable if it was avoided.

This isn’t necessarily always true. As much depends on how a duty is constructed as what it does. Indeed sometimes more crew reliefs actually give more options in terms of recovery.

It can also work both ways as if you have one route disrupted, the disruption may be more evenly spread than a situation where one route is completely screwed and everything else stays perfect - which also spreads the workload for those people attempting to put the puzzle back together again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rather than double trip (and all the problems with boredom and over familiarity that would bring) Virgin introduced triangular working instead. Brum-Pres-Eus-Brum for instance. These come in at over 400 miles per shift whilst varying the routes covered slightly better.

Better for the drivers, of course, but does mean that an incident at Coventry results in a Glasgow being cancelled, or vice versa.

 

[dctraindriver]

Monotonous shuttle diagrams are known however to increase the risk of operational incidents. There is a happy medium to strike, but bouncing up and down the same route for 10 hours with varying stopping patterns is asking for trouble.

We have jobs where we work 3 trips back to back to Worksop. By the end of it you don't know whether you're coming or going.

Spot on. Last weekend I worked shuttles on a particular part of my network. By the end of the 7th one I was more fatigued than my usual fast trips. I can fully understand why that type of working leads to incidents.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure that necessarily follows when units have to interwork anyway for diagramming reasons and to maximise utilisation? Minimising crew changes en route is obviously desirable, but having crew doing a trip from start to end and then working start to end to different destination doesn’t necessarily make reliability worse.

If every unit and crew member just stayed together all day you’d end up with less efficient utilisation overall (at least that’s my understanding - hasten to add I’m not a train planner!).

Yes, it's less efficient to keep everything self contained, but it is more punctual/reliable due to lack of knock-on and ease of fixing things.

Spot on. Last weekend I worked shuttles on a particular part of my network. By the end of the 7th one I was more fatigued than my usual fast trips. I can fully understand why that type of working leads to incidents.

How do Merseyrail and London Underground deal with this? Presumably LU at least don't have much choice but to do multiple trips as a given driver only drives one route?

 

[dctraindriver]

Yes, it's less efficient to keep everything self contained, but it is more punctual/reliable due to lack of knock-on and ease of fixing things.



How do Merseyrail and London Underground deal with this? Presumably LU at least don't have much choice but to do multiple trips as a given driver only drives one route?

I’ve no idea. I’d certainly not enjoy the work if that’s all I did. It certainly helps working for a TOC with some variety.

 

[bramling]

Yes, it's less efficient to keep everything self contained, but it is more punctual/reliable due to lack of knock-on and ease of fixing things.



How do Merseyrail and London Underground deal with this? Presumably LU at least don't have much choice but to do multiple trips as a given driver only drives one route?

Merseyrail and LU have a difference in that they don’t generally have stopping patterns to worry about. In the case of LU they have more in the way of engineered safeguards (both for train protection and wrong side door opening).

Nonetheless LU do have a number of agreements on certain lines. I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head what they are, but at least some of it relates to not spending too much time in the tunnel (eg Bakerloo Line).

LU do generally interwork, so on something like the Northern drivers will work anywhere. Indeed they have to in order to ensure they regularly cover everything (bear in mind it isn’t just the core running like, but stuff like moves, sidings and depots). Weekends in particular have some pretty dire stuff like 5x Edgware-Kennington in a duty, and it will come as no surprise that weekends tend to be over-represented both in terms of sickness absence and in terms of operational incidents.

In terms of recovery, having everything mixed up if anything helps as it spreads the workload and gives numerous different recovery options.

 

[43066]

Merseyrail and LU have a difference in that they don’t generally have stopping patterns to worry about. In the case of LU they have more in the way of engineered safeguards (both for train protection and wrong side door opening).

Nonetheless LU do have a number of agreements on certain lines. I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head what they are, but at least some of it relates to not spending too much time in the tunnel (eg Bakerloo Line).

LU do generally interwork, so on something like the Northern drivers will work anywhere. Indeed they have to in order to ensure they regularly cover everything (bear in mind it isn’t just the core running like, but stuff like moves, sidings and depots). Weekends in particular have some pretty dire stuff like 5x Edgware-Kennington in a duty, and it will come as no surprise that weekends tend to be over-represented both in terms of sickness absence and in terms of operational incidents.

There is at least some scope for visiting different destinations on the more complex lines too, I suppose.

Yes, it's less efficient to keep everything self contained, but it is more punctual/reliable due to lack of knock-on and ease of fixing things.

It follows that the no double trip rule likely won’t make as much difference in as it might first appear, especially as it only really excludes a double Birmingham. Let’s face it TOCs always favour utilisation over reliability, that’s likely why they agreed it in the first place!

 

[bramling]

There is at least some scope for visiting different destinations on the more complex lines too, I suppose.

I know the Central Line mixes stuff up too. A West Ruislip driver for example, far from being confined mainly to West Ruislip-Epping, will pretty often visit Ealing Broadway or Hainault in a shift, and is quite likely to have at least one relief at somewhere like White City.

There’s quite significant disparities between the different likes in terms of the quality of workload. Something like the Northern is nowadays quite brutal (and indeed most drivers will make it clear that they find ATO has made things *more* tiring), the Picc must also be pretty draining especially for drivers based at the east end of the line. By contrast the Central is regarded as a holiday camp by comparison.

It’s interesting to observe that the lines with historically the worst work (things have changed a bit over the last decade) tend to be the more militant. Something to bear in mind when considering changing what drivers do, even if accompanied by better remuneration.

 

[irish_rail]

I also wonder if thr spectre of HS2 puts off potential applicants. It will surely see the end of single London trips and I guess realistically say 3 x Liverpool to London trips in a day or similar? Also the monotony of knowing the train will drive itself for most of the way. I guess its such an unknown quantity this will put some off.
Also , would Manchester to Euston to BNS to Euston to Manchester work? I know on GWR we can do upto 8 hours in the seat in a shift, and at Plymouth frequently do circa 7 when driving London and back....

 

[Jamesrob637]

Wha? Have you even looked at RTT the past couple of weeks?

No, Avanti are definitely not operating a reliable service from MKC at present, and it's a bit silly to suggest that they are.



If I were you I'd "book with confidence" refund it and use Chiltern instead. You might actually get there.

Definitely not. I looked at London to MKC last Friday (then get the two Spoons in MKC ticked off before heading back to Stockport) however connections from MKC to Stockport were so woeful that I stayed in central London and got a direct train Euston to Stockport in the end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also , would Manchester to Euston to BNS to Euston to Manchester work? I know on GWR we can do upto 8 hours in the seat in a shift, and at Plymouth frequently do circa 7 when driving London and back....

They do do that sort of thing as noted above, it's double trips on the same route that are out, and Birmingham is the only route that'd be possible anyway.

Definitely not. I looked at London to MKC last Friday (then get the two Spoons in MKC ticked off before heading back to Stockport) however connections from MKC to Stockport were so woeful that I stayed in central London and got a direct train Euston to Stockport in the end.

MKC has one train per hour direct to Stockport at xx50 all day. There's not a lot wrong with the timetabled offering, it's their inability to actually operate it.

 

[peter166]

This is how it has actually worked out:
0847 Cancelled
0947 Cancelled
1047 Reinstated. 9 Car Full & Standing. 1st Declassified. Departed 23 Mins Late.
11.47Cancelled. ECS back to Euston.
1247 Cancelled.
1347 Running. 9 Car.

Not quite 4 in a row with a 5 hour gap as advised last night on Journey check but still 4 cancellations with two 3 hour gaps instead. Still pretty shameful !

 

[LOL The Irony]

It seems that every other week there's a new thread on Avanti's issues and of those, they mostly seem to be centred around Liverpool and Scotland.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

I also wonder if thr spectre of HS2 puts off potential applicants. It will surely see the end of single London trips and I guess realistically say 3 x Liverpool to London trips in a day or similar? Also the monotony of knowing the train will drive itself for most of the way. I guess its such an unknown quantity this will put some off.

I would imagine the glamour of driving a true high speed train would attract people. I would think that running at high speed would require a high level of alertness even with the automation as things would happen more quickly than on a conventional train. It would be interesting to hear what Eurostar drivers would have to say about this, as especially running in the Channel Tunnel must be the height of boredom.

Getting back more on topic I have been following this thread as I am due to travel Euston to Holyhead on 6 September and I see the train I am ticketed on (the 0910) has been cancelled 3 times on weekdays in July and already once in August

 

[frodshamfella]

Avanti will reach a new low tomorrow morning on its Liverpool service. It has cancelled 4 trains in a row leaving a 5 hour gap !
The 0847, 0947, 1047 and 1147 are all cancelled.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and...

www.journeycheck.com

That's appalling

I suspect if you get rid of all Avanti services, that hourly stopper won't cope due to overcrowding.

They are meant to be increasing the service from hourly to twice hourly. The recent performance doesn't inspire confidence that they can deliver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting back more on topic I have been following this thread as I am due to travel Euston to Holyhead on 6 September and I see the train I am ticketed on (the 0910) has been cancelled 3 times on weekdays in July and already once in August

You may wish to consider a Book with Confidence refund and to instead use Chiltern to Birmingham (or LNR to International to get on early for pick of seats) and then TfW to Holyhead. Bonus if you can time it for a Mk4 set with a change at Shrewsbury! It's slower but you might have half a chance of it actually running as per the timetable.

 

[frodshamfella]

Surely Steve Rotheram the leader of Liverpool City Region should be getting involved.

The MP’s won’t be bothered until the end of September when they start attending the House of Commons after the summer recess..!

quite, he should.