Avanti West Coast cancellations

[Bald Rick]

The obvious question is why is Avanti so bad when the others can manage to perform well or adequately.

Because the different operators have different levels of vacancies, trainees, sick rates, people willing to work rest days, and local arrangements about who can operate trains in the absence of available traincrew.

 

[Huntergreed]

It'll take fractionally long on a Sunday (9th Oct).
BUT there are NO Thameslink trains from Croydon to St Pancras to be able to get up there for it (08:48 from KGX). At least the Euston trains I can get to Victoria that early for the 08:48 from EUS.

Euston and King’s Cross are no more than a 10 minute walk from each other - is this definitely not a possibility?

 

[david1212]

If of course back to February 2020 Avanti ( and others too - yes WMT I am thinking of you as one ) had employed sufficient staff to run the published timetable without overtime / RDW the situation now would be much better.
Overtime / RDW ought only be needed when futher staff are required on duty to cover service and route changes e.g. engineering & diversions, additional trains ( not that mainstream operators run many of those ), abnormal sickness levels or one-off training e.g. new stock or systems rather than just rolling refresher courses.

Avanti wanting to be like LNER and airlines with all tickets allocated to a seat yet for other operators e.g. Chiltern there is no availability of seat booking just compounds problems.
While I staunchly believe the railway should always be walkup with the risk of standing beyond a certain distance / journey time say 1 hour / 50 miles it should be a level playing field i.e. Avanti should not be able to stop ticket sales when Chiltern have no control so can be totally swamped beyond crush loading due to the excess passengers reasonably seeking an alternative option for their journey.

 

[nr758123]

The obvious question is why is Avanti so bad when the others can manage to perform well or adequately.

It's not just Avanti. TPE have consistently fallen a long way short of anything which could be described as well or adequate.

 

[Carlisle]

LNER utilise Driver Managers to operate their services when Aslef drivers are on strike, hence such a minimal service.

Better than nothing I guess, ideally the DFT should instruct their TOCs that all union agreements not allowing managers to drive be suspended until these disputes are fully resolved.

 

[Moonshot]

Better than nothing I guess, ideally the DFT should instruct all their TOCs with union agreements not permitting managers to drive to suspend them until these disputes are fully resolved.

Or just get agency drivers in to cover services

 

[Surreytraveller]

Or just get agency drivers in to cover services

The fully trained up agency drivers that Grant Shapps goes on about?

 

[800001]

Better than nothing I guess, ideally the DFT should instruct their TOCs that all union agreements not allowing managers to drive be suspended until these disputes are fully resolved.

Which would be illegal

 

[Carlisle]

Or just get agency drivers in to cover services

Almost any other jobs in similar circumstances would be covered by management, there’s absolutely no reason drivers should be exempt,

 

[The Planner]

Almost any other jobs in similar circumstances would be covered by management, there’s absolutely no reason drivers should be exempt,

How many turns would driver managers be able to cover, not many I would suggest.

 

[Carlisle]

How many turns would driver managers be able to cover, not many I would suggest.

No not very many , but better that than nothing

 

[Goldfish62]

It's not just Avanti. TPE have consistently fallen a long way short of anything which could be described as well or adequate.

So we have two FirstGroup TOCs which seem to be in incompetently run, while there are two others (GWR and SWR) which seem to manage generally OK.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, we have two FG run companies that are short of resources, two that are not.

One of those that is short of resources is being very competently run, given the circumstances (i.e. the DfT controlling your cost budget) that now prevail.

 

[Moonshot]

Almost any other jobs in similar circumstances would be covered by management, there’s absolutely no reason drivers should be exempt,

At my TOC there is an agreement that on strike days, managers do not drive trains. So when we finally get to an actual strike day in the next few weeks, it will be 100% no trains running.

 

[100andthirty]

Euston and King’s Cross are no more than a 10 minute walk from each other - is this definitely not a possibility?

And, if coming from Victoria, Kings Cross St Pancras is just 2 minutes further along the Victoria line from Euston

 

[TheBigD]

It'll take fractionally long on a Sunday (9th Oct).
BUT there are NO Thameslink trains from Croydon to St Pancras to be able to get up there for it (08:48 from KGX). At least the Euston trains I can get to Victoria that early for the 08:48 from EUS.

LNER services are normally diverted via Carlisle weekends late September, early October every year. Not checked that particular day but they certainly are the previous weekend.

 

[Carlisle]

At my TOC there is an agreement that on strike days, managers do not drive trains. So when we finally get to an actual strike day in the next few weeks, it will be 100% no trains running.

Yes, we all know from debating various issues on here over the years the TOCs that have had decades of underinvestment alongside pretty poor & weak management are the ones most likely to be saddled with the most restrictive agreements

 

[mrmartin]

So when are people expecting the RDW issue to "resolve" itself based on previous years? September when children are back at school?

 

[03_179]

And, if coming from Victoria, Kings Cross St Pancras is just 2 minutes further along the Victoria line from Euston

LNER services are normally diverted via Carlisle weekends late September, early October every year. Not checked that particular day but they certainly are the previous weekend.

thanks all,

SWMBO doesn't like the tube at tmes.

I looked for the KGX-EDB on the 09/10 and looked on the National Rail website at advanced engineering works and that Sunday looks clear

 

[rick9525]

On Sunday 28th of August I am travelling London. National Express Coaches are now running hourly services from Manchester to cater for the increased demand from lack of trains. Due to engineering works on that day the time penalty for taking the coach is reduced to around 2 hours 20 mins and the price is much cheaper as there is good competition on the route. If Avanti are not careful losses will continue to mount from either people taking other forms or transport or just not bothering at all.

 

[geoffk]

It's not just Avanti. TPE have consistently fallen a long way short of anything which could be described as well or adequate.

Yes; I should have written "others" and not "the others" which implies it's only Avanti.

 

[185143]

LNER services are normally diverted via Carlisle weekends late September, early October every year. Not checked that particular day but they certainly are the previous weekend.

Could there be a very real possibility of LNER providing a better service between Carlisle and Scotland than both of Avanti and TPE combined this year?

Assuming the Carlisle stops become public again on LNER that is.

 

[Statto]

Avanti though, it's not just staff shortages, but together with poor industrial relations, seems like staff can't wait to leave Avanti, don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but reading a few posts a few pages back, relations between staff & management are as toxic as it's ever been.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes, we all know from debating various issues on here over the years the TOCs that have had decades of underinvestment alongside pretty poor & weak management are the ones most likely to be saddled with the most restrictive agreements

90% of the Driver Managers at my depot are in fact promotions from the driving grade. Some still have ASLEF membership apparently

Avanti though, it's not just staff shortages, but together with poor industrial relations, seems like staff can't wait to leave Avanti, don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but reading a few posts a few pages back, relations between staff & management are as toxic as it's ever been.

Probably worthwhile summarising what issues ( aside from actual pay ) are causing such toxic relations. I have no idea myself

 

[gazzaa2]

The basic problem of lack of sufficient number of drivers is still there

There are 2 potential fixes :
1) got to employ more, but by time taken on and trained this isn’t a quick fix
2) Short term could incentivise the drivers to volunteer for overtime (by offering extra money, bonuses etc)

But not clear who would fund it, so solution can only be achieved by funding it

There's no quick cure but the fact it's gone from just a bad Sunday service to a bad Saturday service, and now a bad daily service forcing drastic timetable reductions all in a matter of weeks, suggests sorting industrial relations out would be the best immediate fix. The fact it's August doesn't help.

The backlash from the likes of Burnham to timetable changes shows why Avanti left that as a last resort because of the headlines it'd bring. Already Avanti are heading to a last chance saloon. Unlike TPE ongoing issues (or previous chaos with Northern) Avanti services affects London so people will take more notice.

 

[TUC]

Ah, so you you must have some evidence of “unofficial action” to state that this is indeed the cause of what’s happening?

Or are you just parroting what Grant Shapps has told you, with no evidence whatsoever?!

I'm just saying be honest with passengers. Who mentioned Grant Shapps?

 

[Statto]

Probably worthwhile summarising what issues ( aside from actual pay ) are causing such toxic relations. I have no idea myself

Not sure myself, just surmising, but reading a few pages back, issues seems to be general poor industrial relations (ir), all round that it's become so toxic, i said in a post can't remember ever Virgin being so bad towards ir, as Avanti are, & Avanti constantly spewing out unofficial strike action (along with that idiot Shapps) when it's staff mot working on days off, makes things worse.

 

[gazzaa2]

So when are people expecting the RDW issue to "resolve" itself based on previous years? September when children are back at school?

You'd expect so but if relations between staff and management have completely broken down (and morale on the floor) then that's less staff willing to work rest days/overtime. Added to the ongoing rail strikes and industrial unrest. It's a perfect storm for the TOC to deal with and they've not.

 

[Moonshot]

Not sure myself, just surmising, but reading a few pages back, issues seems to be general poor industrial relations (ir), all round that it's become so toxic, i said in a post can't remember ever Virgin being so bad towards ir, as Avanti are, & Avanti constantly spewing out unofficial strike action (along with that idiot Shapps) when it's staff mot working on days off, makes things worse.

It's worth pointing out that drivers links are structured in such a way that once every 5 weeks they get a full week off as rest days. That's a weeks holiday in other industries. I'm not surprised that drivers are not working there rest days tbh

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no quick cure but the fact it's gone from just a bad Sunday service to a bad Saturday service, and now a bad daily service forcing drastic timetable reductions all in a matter of weeks, suggests sorting industrial relations out would be the best immediate fix. The fact it's August doesn't help.

The backlash from the likes of Burnham to timetable changes shows why Avanti left that as a last resort because of the headlines it'd bring. Already Avanti are heading to a last chance saloon. Unlike TPE ongoing issues (or previous chaos with Northern) Avanti services affects London so people will take more notice.

A good first step would be for the MD to retract and apologise for his allegations.

Mind you he's probably job hunting, even if Shapps told him to say it he'll be scapegoated.