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Is the use of cash dying out?

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AlbertBeale

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Do you mean the distinction between an Oyster card (the card which stores money) and a contactless bank card (which just represents an account where the money is stored)?

mods note - split from here.

Of course not - I'm comparing either/both of these (neither of which is physical cash in your hand/wallet/pocket where you can see it and keep track of it as you spend it) with, yes, physical cash. (As I said!) Some people find using the latter has many advantages. If they do, they're not wrong, they've just reached their own conclusion about what's best for them.
 
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Deafdoggie

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Of course not - I'm comparing either/both of these (neither of which is physical cash in your hand/wallet/pocket where you can see it and keep track of it as you spend it) with, yes, physical cash. (As I said!) Some people find using the latter has many advantages. If they do, they're not wrong, they've just reached their own conclusion about what's best for them.
Our local chip shop changed hands. The new owners only took cash. Within two weeks it was shut due to lack of custom. Someone else took over, accepted card payments, and built the business back up. Cash is dieing and taking down its supporters with it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Our local chip shop changed hands. The new owners only took cash. Within two weeks it was shut due to lack of custom. Someone else took over, accepted card payments, and built the business back up. Cash is dieing and taking down its supporters with it.

Cash is dying as its supporters do, bluntly. Most cash zealots are older people.

It's unsurprising that it's doing so first in London, which has a generally younger and more tech savvy population than the rest of the UK because as people get older they tend to move out of it.
 

miklcct

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Our local chip shop changed hands. The new owners only took cash. Within two weeks it was shut due to lack of custom. Someone else took over, accepted card payments, and built the business back up. Cash is dieing and taking down its supporters with it.
There are still many Chinese takeaways and barber shops which do cash only.
 

skyhigh

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There are still many Chinese takeaways and barber shops which do cash only.
I can't remember the last takeaway I visited that only took cash. All but one barber shop in my town takes card payments, and that one remaining shop will happily accept bank transfers as payment.
 

Haywain

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I can't remember the last takeaway I visited that only took cash.
I can, it's in a small coastal town in north Norfolk, and can lead to people (holidaymakers) wandering about the town trying to find the only ATM so that they can collect their dinner!
 

DelayRepay

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Cash is dying as its supporters do, bluntly. Most cash zealots are older people.

It's unsurprising that it's doing so first in London, which has a generally younger and more tech savvy population than the rest of the UK because as people get older they tend to move out of it.
I think the driver of change in London, aside from the younger population, was TfL's decision to implement contactless payments. This got people into the habit of using contactless for small transactions.

Coupled with this is the availability of cheaper merchant facilities for small businesses, meaning even market stalls can now accept cards if they wish to.

To bring this back on topic, the kind of behaviour noted above is exactly what we're seeing with ticket offices. New technology is introduced and, over time, customers change their behaviour because they find the new way (buying an e-ticket online) more convenient. This makes the older way (e.g. ticket offices and ToD) obsolete and no longer cost effective to provide.

This is not unique to the railway - just look how many bank branches have closed in the last decade as more and more transactions are completed online. Look at how downloads and streaming services have replaced record shops and DVD rental shops. Etc, etc, etc.

I can't remember the last takeaway I visited that only took cash. All but one barber shop in my town takes card payments, and that one remaining shop will happily accept bank transfers as payment.
I have just been on holiday to the sea-side and I was quite surprised to find even the ice cream van had a card machine.

My barbers finally got a card machine last year, because they got fed up of people having to go the ATM for cash to pay after a hair cut.
 

Bletchleyite

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To bring this back on topic, the kind of behaviour noted above is exactly what we're seeing with ticket offices. New technology is introduced and, over time, customers change their behaviour because they find the new way (buying an e-ticket online) more convenient. This makes the older way (e.g. ticket offices and ToD) obsolete and no longer cost effective to provide.

This is not unique to the railway - just look how many bank branches have closed in the last decade as more and more transactions are completed online. Look at how downloads and streaming services have replaced record shops and DVD rental shops.

Indeed. And there will be people who don't like this, and people who can't deal with it. The former are larger in number and rather proliferate here. The latter are quite small in number, and may actually well be cheaper to provide for by offering free travel. I don't doubt that the big move to contactless on buses wouldn't have worked anywhere near as well were it not for ENCTS and the other nations' equivalents.
 

Halwynd

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Cash is dying as its supporters do, bluntly. Most cash zealots are older people.

It's unsurprising that it's doing so first in London, which has a generally younger and more tech savvy population than the rest of the UK because as people get older they tend to move out of it.

During my working life I have generally found that those who prefer to use cash tend to be small businesses for some strange reason!

I hate using cash and for many years, since the mid 80s in fact, I have used a credit card - via Apple Pay in more recent years - to pay for everything I possibly can, settled in full each month by Direct Debit. So when it comes to progress, if the benefits are there, I'll certainly take advantage of them. Some people of course don't want to do that, or indeed might not have that option, for quite legitimate reasons. Just because I do something one way doesn't mean that I should expect everyone else to adopt my own preferences.

As far as rail tickets are concerned, whilst I can certainly see the benefits of eTickets, on balance I still prefer to travel with a paper ticket. My first experiences with smartphones (both iPhones) were not great owing to battery and update problems. Whilst I now have a more recent model which has been problem-free, the issues I experienced before still linger in the back of my mind - once bitten, twice shy and all that. The original APTIS credit card sized tickets were perfect and fitted into your wallet nicely. Since their introduction I have never lost or damaged one. But on more than one occasion, had I been using an eTicket, my smartphone would not have been able to produce it when requested, with all the consequences that might well have led to.

I presume that the main reason for the introduction of eTickets is cost - and transfering that cost from the railway to the passenger - but I'm sure that there are others, such as data information management, too. Some passengers might like that, which is great, carry one using them.

But the most succesful businesses will want to make as many of their products or services as easy to buy for as many people as possible. If the railway wants to encourage passengers to use eTickets that's fine, but it shouldn't alienate those who don't. Costs are not just a P&L line between Gross and Net Profit, some need to be seen as an investment, or an ability to maintain and/or increase turnover. It's all well and good when some say that most people now purchase eTickets, but what they and the railway will never be able to quantify is just how much business they either lose, or never gain in the first instance, and the reasons for that. The ticketing system was supposedly made simpler a few years ago, but it has just become worse, as even a casual perusal of the BR Fares website will testify. During my career I have worked with quite a few IT folk. Many of them are very bright indeed and their skills and knowledge often amazes me. But most of them, not unreasonably, have little if any front-line business experience and I would spend some part of my time acting as an interface between what they wanted to do, and what the customer wanted - and sometimes they were two different things altogether.

Anyway, just my thoughts - I can see both sides of the argument.
 

Deafdoggie

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Indeed. And there will be people who don't like this, and people who can't deal with it. The former are larger in number and rather proliferate here. The latter are quite small in number, and may actually well be cheaper to provide for by offering free travel. I don't doubt that the big move to contactless on buses wouldn't have worked anywhere near as well were it not for ENCTS and the other nations' equivalents.
The same old people who only like cash and won't use contactless, will use an ENCTS card because it gets them travel free. These are the same people who would refuse to use the bus if technology was the only way to pay, but as it's free suddenly they can use it!
 

Joe Paxton

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Cash is dying as its supporters do, bluntly. Most cash zealots are older people.

It's unsurprising that it's doing so first in London, which has a generally younger and more tech savvy population than the rest of the UK because as people get older they tend to move out of it.


I'll just put this out there...

BBC News - Cost of living: People turning back to cash as prices rise
People are going back to cash to keep tighter control on their spending as living costs soar, according to new research by the Post Office.
Post offices handled £801m in personal cash withdrawals in July, the most since records began five years ago.
That's up more than 20% from a year earlier.
Natalie Ceeney, chair of the Cash Action Group, said it showed people are "literally counting the pennies" as they grapple with rising prices.
"It's absolutely because of the cost of living crisis," said Ms Ceeney, who chaired the government's independent Access to Cash review.
"People will be taking out cash and physically putting it into pots, saying 'this is what I have for bills, this is what I have for food, and this is what's left'."
[...]


Guardian - Cash makes comeback as cost of living crisis bites, says Post Office
Cash has made a comeback as a result of the cost of living crisis, with record amounts being withdrawn as consumers increasingly rely on notes and coins to help them manage their budgets, figures show.

While the pandemic accelerated the UK’s embrace of card and digital payments, the economic crisis – with inflation going up and many bills expected to rise further – has led a growing numbers of people to turn once again to cash to help them plan their spending.
[...]
 

Bletchleyite

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That appears to be a false conclusion being drawn by a pressure group from increased use of cash at post offices, which is more likely to be to do with bank branch and ATM closures (and ATM charges). "Anecdata" at its finest.
 

miklcct

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"But I can't go to the bank"...well, I've not "gone to the bank" for about 22 years.
Well, I have to go to the bank to withdraw or deposit cash in foreign currencies. I have done it a number of times beforehand.

Just a few years ago, it was still not possible to directly spend money in a foreign currency account overseas. As a result I had to collect cash on the bank to bring it on my overseas trip.

I still have a few thousand Swedish krona (SEK) in cash collected from a bank 2 years ago in anticipation of a trip to Sweden, as at that time the bank didn't offer the facility to spend the SEK directly in account using my debit card.
 

Ediswan

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That appears to be a false conclusion being drawn by a pressure group from increased use of cash at post offices, which is more likely to be to do with bank branch and ATM closures (and ATM charges). "Anecdata" at its finest.
The Post Office appear to have reached the same conclusion. Quoting from the BBC article:
The Post Office put the extra volume of withdrawals at its 11,500 branches down to more people turning to cash to help manage their budgets on a week-by-week and often a day-by-day basis.
 

Haywain

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The railway will never be able to quantify how much business it might lose - or never gain - if it restricts opportunities to sell.
Maybe not, but it will likely be countered by what it gains from making newer methods available.

The Post Office appear to have reached the same conclusion. Quoting from the BBC article:
It seems to me that rapidly rising prices might have had a significant impact on the amount of cash being withdrawn, rather than more people using cash. And comparisons with one or two years ago are not so meaningful given the restrictions imposed by the pandemic.
 

Joe Paxton

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That appears to be a false conclusion being drawn by a pressure group from increased use of cash at post offices, which is more likely to be to do with bank branch and ATM closures (and ATM charges). "Anecdata" at its finest.

Not quite - it's one of the conclusions the Post Office makes, the other being more Brits taking staycations.

The "Access to Cash Action Group" only gets a mention in the BBC article, and furthermore whilst on the face of things it might sound like a pressure group, it's actually a working group within UK Finance - the trade association for the UK banking and financial services sector.
www.ukfinance.org.uk/our-expertise/personal-banking/access-cash


The Post Office runs a 'Cash Tracker', with data reported monthly.

Here are a few excerpts from the July data (archive link):

  • Post Offices handled a record £801 million in personal cash withdrawals in July, up almost 8% month-on-month (£744 million, June 2022)
  • Post Office attributes increase to more Brits taking staycations in the UK and people increasingly relying on cash to manage their budget
  • Only second time that personal cash withdrawals have exceeded £800 million (previous time was December 2021 when there’s always an increase in withdrawals)
[...]
Post Office has attributed the record amount for personal cash withdrawals at its 11,500 branches to more Brits choosing to have staycations in the UK as well as people increasingly turning to cash to manage their budget on a week-by-week basis and often on a day-by-day basis.

Post Office research last month found that 71% of Brits planning on going on holiday in the UK this year plan to take out cash before leaving to go on holiday. Of those who have been on holiday in the UK in the last five years, almost a third (31%) admitted to being caught out cashless whilst on holiday in the UK.

[...]
Martin Kearsley, Banking Director at Post Office, said:
Our latest figures clearly show that Britain is anything but a cashless society. We’re seeing more and more people increasingly reliant on cash as the tried and tested way to manage a budget. Whether that’s for a staycation in the UK or if it’s to help prepare for financial pressures expected in the autumn, cash access in every community is critical. Postmasters handling over £3.3 billion in a single month demonstrates just how vital being able to deposit and withdraw cash, securely and conveniently, is for millions of people.


Lastly, I wouldn't be dismissive of the notion that a significant number of people do manage their money in this way, especially when things are tight.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Lastly, I wouldn't be dismissive of the notion that a significant number of people do manage their money in this way, especially when things are tight.

I don't doubt that some people do do that. However, huge numbers of bank branch closures and ATM removals/charges mean people who do want cash are increasingly only able to access it via Post Offices, which combined with significant increases in Post Office opening hours as they've been moved into convenience stores are likely to be responsible for at least some of this increase.
 

Joe Paxton

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I don't doubt that some people do do that. However, huge numbers of bank branch closures and ATM removals/charges mean people who do want cash are increasingly only able to access it via Post Offices, which combined with significant increases in Post Office opening hours as they've been moved into convenience stores are likely to be responsible for at least some of this increase.

Agreed. However it does show there is an underlying demand for cash.
 

Spamcan81

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There are still many Chinese takeaways and barber shops which do cash only.

Quite so. Our local Chinese takeaway does cash only and is as busy as it ever was. In my chippy there is a noticeable drift back to cash. From around 10% of turnover during the height of the pandemic, it's gone up to around 33%.
 

johncrossley

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Cash is dying as its supporters do, bluntly. Most cash zealots are older people.

I've been in two different Tesco Extras recently and they have just removed lots of staffed checkouts and replaced them with another bank of self-service checkouts. In both cases, all the new checkouts are card only. So, in both stores, you now have three different self-service checkout areas, one for "scan as you shop", one card only (as just mentioned), and the other the original bank of self-service checkouts. Only in the latter is cash allowed.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've been in two different Tesco Extras recently and they have just removed lots of staffed checkouts and replaced them with another bank of self-service checkouts. In both cases, all the new checkouts are card only. So, in both stores, you now have three different self-service checkout areas, one for "scan as you shop", one card only (as just mentioned), and the other the original bank of self-service checkouts. Only in the latter is cash allowed.

I can't imagine that most people favouring cash will want to use self-checkouts, to be honest - it's easy enough to see from this thread that it's mostly traditionalist (want to pay cash AND be served by a person) or modern (happy to use card and be served by a machine). Though there might be a few who are wanting to scan items until they get to the amount of money they've got in their wallet, but they may find it easier to do that at a staffed checkout as they can easily take stuff off.
 

johncrossley

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I can't imagine that most people favouring cash will want to use self-checkouts, to be honest - it's easy enough to see from this thread that it's mostly traditionalist (want to pay cash AND be served by a person) or modern (happy to use card and be served by a machine). Though there might be a few who are wanting to scan items until they get to the amount of money they've got in their wallet, but they may find it easier to do that at a staffed checkout as they can easily take stuff off.

My local Tesco is right next to a secondary school, so if you are unfortunate to visit just before or just after school finishes, or at lunchtime, the school kids all go to the self-checkouts, but most of them can only use the ones that accept cash. So that is annoying as the staff have to ask people in the queue if they have a card so they can go in front of the kids while they wait for a self-checkout that accepts cash. Presumably they would like to have a card, but don't have one because their parents won't let them have one.

At the station, even kids who only have cash prefer the TVM rather than going to ticket office. Using the machine is much "cooler".
 

Bletchleyite

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My local Tesco is right next to a secondary school, so if you are unfortunate to visit just before or just after school finishes, or at lunchtime, the school kids all go to the self-checkouts, but most of them can only use the ones that accept cash. So that is annoying as the staff have to ask people in the queue if they have a card so they can go in front of the kids while they wait for a self-checkout that accepts cash. Presumably they would like to have a card, but don't have one because their parents won't let them have one.

Yes, must be them not being allowed. Online only debit cards* are available from age 13. And GoHenry and the likes (prepaid cards) are available at any age.

* i.e. cards which will always trigger an authorisation so can't be used to overdraw.
 

ComUtoR

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I can't remember the last takeaway I visited that only took cash. All but one barber shop in my town takes card payments, and that one remaining shop will happily accept bank transfers as payment.

The town where I live has plenty of places which only take cash. One of the most popular Kebab shops went to cash only... just after we came out of the pandemic and is always busy. One of the barbers I go to is cash only and its in one of the largest shopping centres in the country. Most of the barbers near me only take cash. We also have a Chinese restaurant that only takes cash and has done for many years.

Cash will be around for years.
 

nlogax

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There is zero argument that cash is dying out. It'll live on for a while longer in smaller and smaller pockets but there is no doubt hard cash is no longer king. Covid hastened its demise once small traders and businesses discovered that cashless solutions worked well. No going back now.
 

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Despite being more than comfortably off nowadays I have had some quite lengthy periods where I literally had to count every penny. I still stick to cash and only use card when the retailer demands it, but this is pretty rare as I don’t buy much in the way of consumer goods. With cash I know exactly where I am and don’t need to worry about a card being stopped, as happened once because of a bank error. This is despite the fact that, although my assets are now in seven figures, the bank will only me give a Debit Card with a £50 cash limit.

I have noticed that all my local supermarkets had increased the number of Card Only self-service tills to at least half, but in recent months at least two seem to have gone back to having all tills capable of taking cash.
 

Bletchleyite

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Despite being more than comfortably off nowadays I have had some quite lengthy periods where I literally had to count every penny. I still stick to cash and only use card when the retailer demands it, but this is pretty rare as I don’t buy much in the way of consumer goods. With cash I know exactly where I am and don’t need to worry about a card being stopped, as happened once because of a bank error. This is despite the fact that, although my assets are now in seven figures, the bank will only me give a card with a £50 cash limit.

Why's that?
 

Gloster

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Why's that?

Presuming you mean, ”Why only a £50 Debit Card?”, the answer is I don’t know. Every time I have asked, they quickly reply, ‘no chance’ (after they have stopped laughing). Most likely it is because I don’t have a regular income any more: I keep the total of my money in my three bank accounts (with the same bank) around the FSCS guarantee of £85,000, but when it drops below £80,000 I top it up with £6-8,000 (depending on any expected costs in the near future) from another bank account. However, as my lifestyle is still pretty quiet following a period of ill-health, my outgoings are modest and so top-ups are infrequent.
 

Bletchleyite

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Presuming you mean, ”Why only a £50 Debit Card?”, the answer is I don’t know. Every time I have asked, they quickly reply, ‘no chance’ (after they have stopped laughing). Most likely it is because I don’t have a regular income any more: I keep the total of my money in my three bank accounts (with the same bank) around the FSCS guarantee of £85,000, but when it drops below £80,000 I top it up with £6-8,000 (depending on any expected costs in the near future) from another bank account. However, as my lifestyle is still pretty quiet following a period of ill-health, my outgoings are modest and so top-ups are infrequent.

£85K is a heck of a balance! I'd change banks.
 
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