GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[Mzzzs]

I was surprised when gwr announced that they will be converting the class 319 the warning signs where there from the moment the train got converted with many problems during testing with northern resulting in delayed entry into service and now a unreliable train which is rumoured they want to get rid off.
It would have been better to just order a whole new fleet which can work in the south west as well as the Thames branches something like a flirt or just renew the whole dmu fleet.
But now money is being spent on trains which are just s suped up 1980s train hardly a improvement over any turbo.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It wasn’t an option at the time. The 769 stock was the only solution available to the DfT to solve the issues on HeX/GWR.

As it turned out, the non-availability of the 769 sets forced other solutions to the 387 conversion issue. Now it is extra services in the west that are dependant, in the short to medium term, on the 769 units actually working.

 

[Kite159]

I was surprised when gwr announced that they will be converting the class 319 the warning signs where there from the moment the train got converted with many problems during testing with northern resulting in delayed entry into service and now a unreliable train which is rumoured they want to get rid off.
It would have been better to just order a whole new fleet which can work in the south west as well as the Thames branches something like a flirt or just renew the whole dmu fleet.
But now money is being spent on trains which are just s suped up 1980s train hardly a improvement over any turbo.

Agreed, in hindsight the money would have been better spent on asking Stadler to see if they can build a 3rd rail version of the 755s, even a larger order to allow some of the 150s to get retired

 

[RPI]

It wasn’t an option at the time. The 769 stock was the only solution available to the DfT to solve the issues on HeX/GWR.

As it turned out, the non-availability of the 769 sets forced other solutions to the 387 conversion issue. Now it is extra services in the west that are dependant, in the short to medium term, on the 769 units actually working.

Not even "extra" services, the daily numerous short formations caused by lack of (usually turbos) is going to kill the passenger recovery/growth in the West.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I was surprised when gwr announced that they will be converting the class 319 the warning signs where there from the moment the train got converted with many problems during testing with northern resulting in delayed entry into service and now a unreliable train which is rumoured they want to get rid off.
It would have been better to just order a whole new fleet which can work in the south west as well as the Thames branches something like a flirt or just renew the whole dmu fleet.
But now money is being spent on trains which are just s suped up 1980s train hardly a improvement over any turbo.

Whitehall doesn't work like that. It is not like popping down the road to the sweetshop and ordering a quarter of Army & Navy tablets. If it got anywhere near that stage Whitehall would say you need to make do with 2 oz and be done with it.

As "CY" has said more than once in this thread flex is the only game in town, and it is now seems to me to be a continuing battle with ASLEF, unless they have agreed to allow their drivers to train on the 769.
How far have we got with shoes being knocked off by high ballast ? I think there was one on the GWML last year, but any more yet ? It will happen !!!

 

[JN114]

How far have we got with shoes being knocked off by high ballast ? I think there was one on the GWML last year, but any more yet ? It will happen !!!

They’ve never had shoes knocked off on a route they’re cleared to operate on.

The incident at Taplow(?) a year or so ago was in spite of them being prohibited from running East of Maidenhead.

 

[Wyrleybart]

They’ve never had shoes knocked off on a route they’re cleared to operate on.

The incident at Taplow(?) a year or so ago was in spite of them being prohibited from running East of Maidenhead.

Thanks for the correction "JN114".
That clarifies it

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They've done 3 out and backs this week again so we must be close to getting the DI's trained up now?

 

[JN114]

They've done 3 out and backs this week again so we must be close to getting the DI's trained up now?

Unless there's been developments I'm not aware of; the runs these week were not for driver (or DI) training - nor have any runs of the 769s been to date.

Once that starts, there will be a clearer path to them actually entering service. But it hasn't happened yet.

Current running has predominantly been either fault-free mileage accumulation, or ASDO system tests.

 

[TurboMan]

Current running has predominantly been either fault-free mileage accumulation, or ASDO system tests.

This, plus competence retention for driver standards/driver learning managers who are already competent on 769s.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Unless there's been developments I'm not aware of; the runs these week were not for driver (or DI) training - nor have any runs of the 769s been to date.

Once that starts, there will be a clearer path to them actually entering service. But it hasn't happened yet.

Current running has predominantly been either fault-free mileage accumulation, or ASDO system tests.

Arghh i see maybe May 23 TT change then

 

[TurboMan]

Arghh i see maybe May 23 TT change then

The plan is still to get at least one 769 diagram in the December timetable, but we'll see.

 

[FenMan]

The plan is still to get at least one 769 diagram in the December timetable, but we'll see.

There's a plan? When did that happen?

I'm old enough to remember this from two years ago:

https://twitter.com/gwrhelp/status/1296421240543027200?lang=en-GB

And that delivery was a year late ....

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There's a plan? When did that happen?

I'm old enough to remember this from two years ago:

https://twitter.com/gwrhelp/status/1296421240543027200?lang=en-GB

And that delivery was a year late ....

Oh dear the press department getting ahead of themselves as usual.

 

[Bikeman78]

The plan is still to get at least one 769 diagram in the December timetable, but we'll see.

I can't believe that GWR is still wasting effort on them. I think every Welsh unit overheated and went into limp mode at some point today. Meanwhile the 150s just plodded on so "it's too hot" is no excuse. It tends to get hotter in the southeast so you will have to write off the North Downs line every time there's a heatwave.

 

[brad465]

I think we all know it’s us taxpayers footing the bill. I’m inclined to start looking for any connections between government and ‘the enterprise’ to figure out why this hasn’t been dropped in the bin as fast as the 442s were and indeed as fast as Southern’s recently refurbished 455s!

I wouldn't be surprised if it would have been cheaper and easier in hindsight to just electrify the non-third rail parts of the North Downs line and send 319s over without conversion. There would still be the issue of the Thames' branches though of course, although shouldn't they have been electrified to OHLE as part of the cut back GW electrification anyway?

 

[Energy]

I can't believe that GWR is still wasting effort on them. I think every Welsh unit overheated and went into limp mode at some point today. Meanwhile the 150s just plodded on so "it's too hot" is no excuse. It tends to get hotter in the southeast so you will have to write off the North Downs line every time there's a heatwave.

Aside from fitting 387s with batteries I don't think GWR/DfT have a lot of choice.

although shouldn't they have been electrified to OHLE as part of the cut back GW electrification anyway?

Yes. This (and crossrail extended to reading) is why there were 12 free 387s for HeX.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I can't believe that GWR is still wasting effort on them. I think every Welsh unit overheated and went into limp mode at some point today. Meanwhile the 150s just plodded on so "it's too hot" is no excuse. It tends to get hotter in the southeast so you will have to write off the North Downs line every time there's a heatwave.

As "Clarence Yard" has previously stated (and he knows) the DfT have passed the 769 baby to GWR to nurture and feed. GWR may well hate the mortal sight of the baby but they have to persevere with bringing it up. It remains to be seen how long DfT continue with the project.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Aside from fitting 387s with batteries I don't think GWR/DfT have a lot of choice.

GWR don’t have any choice. DfT have a lot of choice.

 

[RobShipway]

The plan is still to get at least one 769 diagram in the December timetable, but we'll see.

I cannot see the class 769 fleet entering service until February next year at the earliest.

 

[JonathanH]

I cannot see the class 769 fleet entering service until February next year at the earliest.

What is magic about February? Seems like a really poor time of the year to be trying to introduce rolling stock, although I note that February 2023 will be the fourth anniversary of their original intended entry to service.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ally-for-northern.138660/page-49#post-3398153

 

[Snow1964]

GWR don’t have any choice. DfT have a lot of choice.

It is over 3 years ago that they were announced.

Quick reminder for those who don’t want to plough back through the thread, DFT plan was 76 vehicles (19 x 4car) with 264 standard seats, 2 wheelchair spaces in standard, 276 standing, 12 First class seats, no wheelchair space in First class, and fitted with baby changing facilities in toilets. (Details taken from appendix 2 additional rolling stock, in section 1.6 rolling stock) of latest published GWR Franchise award)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1013732/great-western-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

So basically GWR haven’t yet got 19 trains in service which are 32-35 years old with more standing than seated, to replace slightly newer (30+ year old) trains.

For comparison of capacity (from appendix 1 existing stock)
class 165 (2car) 159 seats, 2 wheelchair, 56 standing, 0 First class
class 165 (3car) 259 seats, 2 wheelchair, 91 standing, 0 first class
class 166 244 seats, 2 wheelchair, 85 standing, 0 first class

so the 769s would have similar standard class seating capacity as a 3car 165 which is probably why DfT assumed they would be a good choice.

 

[infobleep]

It is over 3 years ago that they were announced.

Quick reminder for those who don’t want to plough back through the thread, DFT plan was 76 vehicles (19 x 4car) with 264 standard seats, 2 wheelchair spaces in standard, 276 standing, 12 First class seats, no wheelchair space in First class, and fitted with baby changing facilities in toilets. (Details taken from appendix 2 additional rolling stock, in section 1.6 rolling stock) of latest published GWR Franchise award)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1013732/great-western-rail-franchise-agreement.pdf

So basically GWR haven’t yet got 19 trains in service which are 32-35 years old with more standing than seated, to replace slightly newer (30+ year old) trains.

For comparison of capacity (from appendix 1 existing stock)
class 165 (2car) 159 seats, 2 wheelchair, 56 standing, 0 First class
class 165 (3car) 259 seats, 2 wheelchair, 91 standing, 0 first class
class 166 244 seats, 2 wheelchair, 85 standing, 0 first class

so the 769s would have similar standard class seating capacity as a 3car 165 which is probably why DfT assumed they would be a good choice.

How many of the 19 are in passenger use? I'm sure I've travelled on one of them.

 

[JonathanH]

It is over 3 years ago that they were announced.

To be pedantic, it is actually over 4 years (April 2018 press release https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2018/19-04-18a.aspx), and nearly 6 years since interest was shown in them - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ially-for-northern.138660/page-5#post-2799637

 

[physics34]

Time to rip out the engines... we'll have back on southern metro.

 

[Minstral25]

When it was announced in 2018 they were just over 30 years old, now they are heading to be 35 years before they are put in service (if/when). Hitting their design life when starting in operation, with newer trains going for scrap. Doesn't seem right anymore.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I wouldn't be surprised if it would have been cheaper and easier in hindsight to just electrify the non-third rail parts of the North Downs line and send 319s over without conversion. There would still be the issue of the Thames' branches though of course, although shouldn't they have been electrified to OHLE as part of the cut back GW electrification anyway?

Problem with the Thames branches is that at least one of them (Marlow) cannot take anything longer than two cars because of the layout at Bourne End, which could not be modified without demolishing half the village. And a bespoke design would be needed as there have not been any 2-car AC units since the 309/1s were augmented to 4-car fifty years ago. (Indeed, the only 2-car units built since then are the 30-year old class 466 Networkers, which are DC only)

 

[RichJF]

Problem with the Thames branches is that at least one of them (Marlow) cannot take anything longer than two cars because of the layout at Bourne End, which could not be modified without demolishing half the village. And a bespoke design would be needed as there have not been any 2-car AC units since the 309/1s were augmented to 4-car fifty years ago. (Indeed, the only 2-car units built since then are the 30-year old class 466 Networkers, which are DC only)

Or the 2-car class 456 in 1989-90?

 

[class397tpe]

Zero. The 769s have not been approved by unions for GWR, and therefore are not in passenger use. You may have travelled on them with a different operator.

Just wondering, what is it about the GWR units that the unions don't like, whereas they were fine with the TfW and Northern ones?

 

[JonathanH]

Just wondering, what is it about the GWR units that the unions don't like, whereas they were fine with the TfW and Northern ones?

It is explained upthread that these are the primary workplace for many of the relevant drivers whereas on TfW and Northern, the drivers also work other types of rolling stock.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mation-discussion.174866/page-17#post-5028467
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cab-design.229153/#post-5572731