What will happen if, after boarding an Intercity Express Train (IET) with a bike with a reservation, there is no space to put my bike?

[Benjwri]

Doesn't break their policy of not asking someone to shift their stuff (weird policy but anyhoo).

Looking back I feel this may have been something the TM told me because they couldn't deal with the hassle of finding the owner and it was just easier to kick me off.

 

[43096]

Avanti have some seats marked "reserved cyclist" so people can stay near the bikes. It'd make sense for GWR to do the same, it would only be 4 seats per full length train which wouldn't be a huge loss.

Or, as I have said before, just abolish free seat reservations with most tickets and make it a charge for extra (“guaranteed seat”) or free for those who have a need (elderly/infirm/pregnant etc).

 

[Grumbler]

Looking back I feel this may have been something the TM told me because they couldn't deal with the hassle of finding the owner and it was just easier to kick me off.

So, selling reservations for bikes is fraud. The TOC should not be allowed to get away with it.

 

[Benjwri]

selling reservations for bikes is fraud

Depends on the way you look at it I guess, they sold me the train journey, I didn't pay for a bike, although still bad I agree

 

[northernbelle]

So, selling reservations for bikes is fraud. The TOC should not be allowed to get away with it.

Bike reservations aren't sold. They are offered free of charge, subject to availability. There is no actual commitment for the TOC to offer any bike spaces at all.

 

[Benjwri]

Bike reservations aren't sold. They are offered free of charge, subject to availability. There is no actual commitment for the TOC to offer any bike spaces at all.

Having said that, as pointed out in another thread here, the NRCoT 22.2 says:

If a cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid. If the Train Company is unable to provide alternative equivalent
accommodation for your cycle and you therefore decide not to travel you will be entitled to claim a refund under Condition 29 for your journey, without any administration charge.

So there is at least an expectation they try to provide alternative accommodation for your bike, and if you can't travel because of it they must refund you.

 

[Western Sunset]

Bike reservations aren't sold. They are offered free of charge, subject to availability. There is no actual commitment for the TOC to offer any bike spaces at all.

Maybe there should be commitments for TOCs to offer bike spaces. Central Government has been handing out £££ millions in Active Travel Schemes around the country to encourage (amongst other things) wider cycle usage. Maybe we need more joined-up thinking across the travel sectors.

 

[zwk500]

Maybe there should be commitments for TOCs to offer bike spaces. Central Government has been handing out £££ millions in Active Travel Schemes around the country to encourage (amongst other things) wider cycle usage. Maybe we need more joined-up thinking across the travel sectors.

Tbh bikes on board trains are a fairly niche part of active travel. There are specific routes where a much better effort could be made to accomodate bikes but anybody looking to encourage cycling+train would be better off by focusing on a 'bike and ride' approach with secure storage at stations and good cycle routes from the station out into the town and surrounding villages.

Having said that, as pointed out in another thread here, the NRCoT 22.2 says:

That Condition is a bit of a mess really. There's no reservation fee paid so nothing for them to refund you if you travel, and it's unclear whether being forced to take a later train entitles you to any compensation at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tbh bikes on board trains are a fairly niche part of active travel. There are specific routes where a much better effort could be made to accomodate bikes but anybody looking to encourage cycling+train would be better off by focusing on a 'bike and ride' approach with secure storage at stations and good cycle routes from the station out into the town and surrounding villages.

I would agree - in particular staffed cycle storage on the Dutch bewaakte Fietsenstalling model would be a huge benefit and would allow people to use better bikes to cycle further to the station. I might be happy to ride a second hand "bike shaped object" nobody would ever want to nick even if left unlocked 2 miles to Bletchley station from here, but if say I lived in Buckingham I'd want to be using a decent road bike for the longer trip, but wouldn't be parking say a £2K bike at Bletchley or even worse MKC as it'd probably get nicked.

That Condition is a bit of a mess really. There's no reservation fee paid so nothing for them to refund you if you travel, and it's unclear whether being forced to take a later train entitles you to any compensation at all.

It's not even clear that one can use an Advance on a later train if refused on the booked one. It is really very messy.

 

[ExRes]

So, selling reservations for bikes is fraud. The TOC should not be allowed to get away with it.

How much do you pay for your bike reservations then? the fraud is selling passenger tickets to people who can't get on the train because of bikes being carried gratis

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much do you pay for your bike reservations then? the fraud is selling passenger tickets to people who can't get on the train because of bikes being carried gratis

I have never, ever been physically unable to board a train due to the presence of someone else's bicycle. Have you? How often? Which TOC, noting that on some e.g. Avanti passengers are not permitted to travel in the van area even if the train is physically completely full, as the front third* of the front coach of a 125mph train is not permitted to contain passengers while in motion?

* At the time of construction; for new build e.g. the 80x I think it's a bit less now.

 

[ExRes]

I have never, ever been physically unable to board a train due to the presence of someone else's bicycle. Have you? How often? Which TOC, noting that on some e.g. Avanti passengers are not permitted to travel in the van area even if the train is physically completely full?

Yes I have actually, between Three Bridges and Brighton and between St Ives and St Erth

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I have actually, between Three Bridges and Brighton and between St Ives and St Erth

I'm not totally sure I believe you. You were probably unable to board because other passengers wouldn't move up enough. Other than the handlebars a bicycle is only about 2-3" wide, the saddle maybe 4-5"; it is impossible to fit even the smallest child into that space.

 

[Benjwri]

That Condition is a bit of a mess really. There's no reservation fee paid so nothing for them to refund you if you travel, and it's unclear whether being forced to take a later train entitles you to any compensation at all.

Would assume you would be to delay repay.

It's not even clear that one can use an Advance on a later train if refused on the booked one. It is really very messy.

As mentioned in the other thread, this quote claims you can:

If you are travelling with a bike and have purchased an Advance ticket for a train on which bikes are permitted but bike reservations are not possible, and there is no room for the bike on the booked train for the Advance ticket, then you can travel on the next train with the same ticket on which there is a bike space available.

I have never, ever been physically unable to board a train due to the presence of someone else's bicycle. Have you? How often? Which TOC

As I mentioned at the start of the thread, I was removed from two GWR trains on the London-Bristol Temple Meads route almost exactly a year ago, once with an entirely valid reservation, because the guard wouldn't move the other bike, and on the following train because I didn't have a reservation, despite being removed from the one before.

 

[ExRes]

I'm not totally sure I believe you.

Really? well bully for you, I don't use this forum for telling fairy tales, I've better things to do

 

[zwk500]

Would assume you would be to delay repay.

Is there a condition or policy that states delay Repay would be payable, even if both original and replacement train ran to the advertised times? I can see that one having to go through the mill a bit to get repayment back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As mentioned in the other thread, this quote claims you can:

I stand corrected on that one.

As I mentioned at the start of the thread, I was removed from two GWR trains on the London-Bristol Temple Meads route almost exactly a year ago, once with an entirely valid reservation, because the guard wouldn't move the other bike, and on the following train because I didn't have a reservation, despite being removed from the one before.

The other poster was claiming they were unable to board a train without a bicycle due to the presence of someone else's bicycle. And because of the shape of bicycles and how they are carried, I don't believe them; it's just an anti-bikes-on-trains rant. More usual on a full and standing train is being unable to board because people won't move down the saloon and instead crowd the vestibules.

 

[Benjwri]

Is there a condition or policy that states delay Repay would be payable, even if both original and replacement train ran to the advertised times? I can see that one having to go through the mill a bit to get repayment back.

I don't believe so, but when I tried to when it happened to me with GWR they refunded me 100% of the return ticket, as I was entitled to if it did count towards delay repay. However I'm not sure if that was actually because I shouldn't have made my original train from Didcot, because of a delayed inbound service, and lots of trains were skipping Didcot because of delays.

The other poster was claiming they were unable to board a train without a bicycle due to the presence of someone else's bicycle. And because of the shape of bicycles and how they are carried, I don't believe them; it's just an anti-bikes-on-trains rant.

Ahhh my bad, not sure how I didn't notice it.

 

[londonbridge]

I've actually had this experience, multiple times, on GWR IETs. GWR does allocate bike spaces on IETs, and technically you can't travel on one without. However where this becomes a problem is either when people travel without a reservation or put luggage in the bike areas, despite the lights above showing they were booked. I came across this situation on a train from Didcot to Bath last year, and with no other spaces I tried to stand in the corridor next to the bike locker, leaving enough space for someone to get by. Unfortunately the Train Manager came along and informed me that he couldn't allow a bike there, an promptly booted me off the train at Swindon.

This was despite showing him the paper ticket showing him I had a reservation for this service, in this carriage. He informed me policy is that they can't ask anyone to move luggage or bike out of the area once it's been put there, regardless of a reservation, and therefore I'd have to be the one to get off. It seemed a pretty widespread policy, as I was booted off the following IET at Chippenham, despite explaining to the manager I had been booted off the last one with a reservation.

You should have just stood your ground, refused to get off the first train and challenged the TM to call BTP.

 

[Benjwri]

You should have just stood your ground, refused to get off the first train and challenged the TM to call BTP.

As much as I probably should have, I did not have the confidence to do that
Might’ve if it was a longer journey, but even at 2 changes I didn’t have anywhere to be, so not the end of the world.

 

[londonbridge]

Fair enough if you didn’t feel able to but the point is you’d done nothing wrong and the TM would probably have ended up in lumber for delaying the train.

 

[Benjwri]

Fair enough if you didn’t feel able to but the point is you’d done nothing wrong and the TM would probably have ended up in lumber for delaying the train.

Yeah was a year ago, I had no idea about the rules and just assumed the policy the TM claimed to quote was correct. As far as I knew by refusing to get off I’d just have been delaying the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You should have just stood your ground, refused to get off the first train and challenged the TM to call BTP.

Ill-advised, as BTP will near-always side with staff.

 

[Western Sunset]

Yeah was a year ago, I had no idea about the rules and just assumed the policy the TM claimed to quote was correct. As far as I knew by refusing to get off I’d just have been delaying the train.

Would Ben legally have had a leg (or pedal...) to stand on if he'd stood his ground and refused to move when ordered to by the train manager, even though he was totally in the right?

 

[Benjwri]

Ill-advised, as BTP will near-always side with staff.

I presume the idea is the TM wouldn’t want to hold up the train waiting for them. Might not have worked in Swindon, but feel like we’d have had a rather lengthy wait for any to turn up in Chippenham, doubt the TM would want to block the line to Bristol for that long.

 

[DelW]

I'm not totally sure I believe you. You were probably unable to board because other passengers wouldn't move up enough. Other than the handlebars a bicycle is only about 2-3" wide, the saddle maybe 4-5"; it is impossible to fit even the smallest child into that space.

The poster you've accused of lying referred to being unable to board because of bikes (plural) being carried gratis (post #69). While the frame of a single bike may be only 2-3" wide, both handlebars and pedals are much wider than that, and there can be panniers etc. as well. I've seen situations where a single off-road bike takes up as much room as at least three standing passengers, and two bikes will occupy much more space than that. Stating a fact like that doesn't seem to be an "anti-bikes-on-trains rant" as you've described it, and certainly doesn't warrant being accused of making it up.
Before you categorise me as anti-bike as well, I own and use three bikes - a road bike, an offroad bike, and a Brompton - which is the one I take when I travel by train.

 

[Fyldeboy]

Issue bike reservations with a QR code, and put readers on the bike storage doors so they'll only open when reading a valid reservation? Then the train manager wouldn't need to be involved when boarding.

That gets a 'Like' from me but wouldn't be a quick/cheap 'fix'

TM should be actively managing the spaces. The reservation system will tell him/her where the bikes should have been loaded, and they can make the decision to release/retain the space as conditions demand shortly after departure from the respective stations.

Another 'Like'

Completely unrealistic, the train may be ten coaches long and formed of two sets with no through access. Not going to happen.

But if zwk500's idea was slightly modified? 2-set trains have staff in each half, yes? So reserved bike spaces could be unlocked before arrival at the departure station (eg after Bath for a Chippenham - Paddington reservation) and left unlocked if not claimed. Now it is possible that space would be filled before Chippers, but much less likely

 

[mrmartin]

I'm a huge fan of active travel but seems a bit mad to me that a bike (which takes up roughly the same space as a person) is free but a person can be £200-300+ on intercity trains.

Surely if there is more demand for bike spaces than spaces available there should be a higher cost? It clearly isn't viable to have an intercity operation running with more than a handful of bikes. It would completely implode if say 50% of people on an IET turned up with a bike.

I think much better secure bike parking is the answer and rental bikes at big terminals.

 

[Benjwri]

I'm a huge fan of active travel but seems a bit mad to me that a bike (which takes up roughly the same space as a person) is free but a person can be £200-300+ on intercity trains.

The bike isn’t being out in a profitable seat though, and ensuring everyone has paid just isn’t feasible, as is shown by the fact they can’t do it now. They would have to offer a service an aweful lot better than they do now to justify even a slight payment.

I think much better secure bike parking is the answer and rental bikes at big terminals

I think the majority of people taking bikes on an IET is either because they are moving the bike more permanently, or they are transporting their bike for something special. Almost all the bikes I’ve seen on IET services regularly are custom ones, or ones such as mountain bikes, which wouldn’t be looking for a rental.

I know the only reason I take my bike on the train is when I’m moving out of accomodation for the summer.

I think the main issue is though either of those solutions will result in less active travel, as the current solution is not perfect, but free, whereas bike rental or paid spaces is costing people money.

 

[miklcct]

The bike isn’t being out in a profitable seat though, and ensuring everyone has paid just isn’t feasible, as is shown by the fact they can’t do it now. They would have to offer a service an aweful lot better than they do now to justify even a slight payment.

I think the majority of people taking bikes on an IET is either because they are moving the bike more permanently, or they are transporting their bike for something special. Almost all the bikes I’ve seen on IET services regularly are custom ones, or ones such as mountain bikes, which wouldn’t be looking for a rental.

I know the only reason I take my bike on the train is when I’m moving out of accomodation for the summer.

I think the main issue is though either of those solutions will result in less active travel, as the current solution is not perfect, but free, whereas bike rental or paid spaces is costing people money.

When the bike is a solution for leisure travel to rural areas where public transport is never viable, what do you think of alternative solutions except a fee for a bike reservation?