Sprinter Extinction

[Bletchleyite]

No it doesn't. It needs overhead lines!

Well, yes, but if it isn't getting those 195s can at least offer an EMU like timetable.

 

[Trainbike46]

I've posted this in speculation, but no doubt it'll become a real discussion soon enough.

What cascades will be required to remove the 150s from the network: and how soon, realistically, could it be achieved?

Does the whole 15x series need removing, or can some classes stay?

All 15x will likely reach their end of life over the next 10 years, so depending on the timeframe you're thinking off, they will all have to go at some point. The 158, as the newest sprinter, will likely stick around the longest

And what does a cascade seeking to, at minimum, eliminate 150s look like?

Electrifying multiple lines and cascading 168/170/172/19x/other 15x trains to fill the gaps if needed

A fairly small top-up order of 195s (which they're allegedly interested in) would allow Northern to get rid of the rest.

Please not more diesel only trains. If new diesel trains were procured, they should be fully ready for going zero emission in the future, such as the FLIRT. This might even end up cheaper as the risk of early retirement is lower

Don't expect to see any more 195s. The plan for hybrid 195s has been binned off (as noted it was 'under review' in the latest Modern Railways but I understand that it's now been decided). Instead, a larger order of bi-mode units to see off all the 15x is now the medium term aim.

That sounds great!

Another logical place to get diesel units from is Birmingham if the Snow Hill lines can be electrified. However, the obvious issue there is how far the tentacles of that operation go. It is all very well electrifying Kidderminster to Whitlocks End and Dorridge but going further is less cost effective.

you could electrify all the snow hill lines, clearly starting with the busiest sections.

Really, what needs to be identified is how routes can be rationalised across the country to see what small electrification jobs can be done that allow EMUs to replace DMUs, even if that means connecting trains where currently there are through ones.

Or, alternatively, buy a bunch of regional bimodes (like the 755/756) and put them on services that have significant stretches under the wire, then wire up the rest

2-car 158 won't work for Looe or Gunnislake. At one time, it was suggested that battery fitted 466s might be the appropriate replacements but that appears to have gone away.

Possibly electrify the GWR diesel branches off the electrified mainline, and cascade the diesel units to Cornwall?

 

[Anonymous10]

When and if the GWR 150s do go soon, what could replace them on the Devon & Cornwall branches? Perhaps Vivarail 230s if the Greenford branch line trial is sucessful but won't users be happy going from Pacers to 150s to 230s? 2-car 158s could be the replacement if GWR doesn't go for the 230s.

if i recall correctly some lines have clearance issues for other stock to 150s

 

[py_megapixel]

if i recall correctly some lines have clearance issues for other stock to 150s

Well, they can't run 150s down there forever. Sooner or later, something else will have to get clearance!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

How intensively are they used? (XC's are hardly used at all, which is why you could replace the lot with a couple more Voyagers, which is why it's bizarre they aren't actually doing that with the two Avanti ones now sitting unused!)

There are 12 daily diagrams for GW HSTs, all full diagrams.

The small 80x cascade is only intended to reduce the HST numbers slightly to release sets for forthcoming overhauls and reduce the pressure on the sets slightly to eek out miles.

There are enough capacity problems on the West Fleet without arbitrarily removing a vast chunk of the fleet, you only have to look at the comments elsewhere on the forum about the number of short forms on Pompey/Cardiff to realise its a fleet under pressure.

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Well, they can't run 150s down there forever. Sooner or later, something else will have to get clearance!

And that is why you will have seen reference to GWR being tasked to come up with a long term fleet strategy.

 

[Snow1964]

Well, they can't run 150s down there forever. Sooner or later, something else will have to get clearance!

The 150s are about 35-37 years old, so near end of life
The 170s are 17-24 years old so logically could survive about 15-20 years longer.

So basic choice is make something like a 170 fit and push the replacement issue 20 years into future, or build something. Although if pure diesel trains should be built new in mid-late 2020s is questionable for fuel/environment reasons.

Not totally sure what clearance issues are, a 2car 170 is about 9m longer, but about 4cm narrower (so any width issues are going to be on curves.). The length issue will only affect short platforms or reversing points

 

[Trainbike46]

The 150s are about 35-37 years old, so near end of life
The 170s are 17-24 years old so logically could survive about 15-20 years longer.

So basic choice is make something like a 170 fit and push the replacement issue 20 years into future, or build something. Although if pure diesel trains should be built new in mid-late 2020s is questionable for fuel/environment reasons.

Where would the 170s come from? Scotrail? I thought EMR was quite effective at hoovering them all up

Not totally sure what clearance issues are, a 2car 170 is about 9m longer, but about 4cm narrower (so any width issues are going to be on curves.). The length issue will only affect short platforms or reversing points

 

[py_megapixel]

The 150s are about 35-37 years old, so near end of life
The 170s are 17-24 years old so logically could survive about 15-20 years longer.

So basic choice is make something like a 170 fit and push the replacement issue 20 years into future, or build something. Although if pure diesel trains should be built new in mid-late 2020s is questionable for fuel/environment reasons.

If Northern did get a big Sprinter replacement order, might it make sense to me for them to order enough to also replace the 2-car 195s, which could then head south? I think the numbers line up reasonably well for them to see off all of GWR's 150s and perhaps also the worst few 158s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If Northern did get a big Sprinter replacement order, might it make sense to me for them to order enough to also replace the 2-car 195s, which could then head south? I think the numbers line up reasonably well for them to see off all of GWR's 150s and perhaps also the worst few 158s.

The GWR commitment to review the west fleet is about proposing how to start decarbonising the west - a pure brand new diesel such as a 195 won’t satisfy this requirement.

 

[Anonymous10]

Well, they can't run 150s down there forever. Sooner or later, something else will have to get clearance!

i believe its infrastructure related im aware they cant and im aware that something else will need to be cleared but that takes time as does the necessary work

 

[Snow1964]

If Northern did get a big Sprinter replacement order, might it make sense to me for them to order enough to also replace the 2-car 195s, which could then head south? I think the numbers line up reasonably well for them to see off all of GWR's 150s and perhaps also the worst few 158s.

I hadn’t really thought of units as new as class 195s becoming spare. I was thinking some units coming spare being replaced by bi-modes or EMUs through 2025-2035

But there are lots of ageing sprinter units, as a rule of thumb about 600 vehicles (classes 150, 153, 155, 156) with lifespan of about 4-8 years then another 600 vehicles (classes 158, 159, 165, 166) which probably need replacing in 8-13 years

So overall something like 1200 new vehicles

 

[Chester1]

I hadn’t really thought of units as new as class 195s becoming spare. I was thinking some units coming spare being replaced by bi-modes or EMUs through 2025-2035

But there are lots of ageing sprinter units, as a rule of thumb about 600 vehicles (classes 150, 153, 155, 156) with lifespan of about 4-8 years then another 600 vehicles (classes 158, 159, 165, 166) which probably need replacing in 8-13 years

So overall something like 1200 new vehicles

The policy will be to kick can down road as much as possible, hoping technology solves the decarbonisation challenges. 158s released from existing ToCs soon are the obvious replacements for 155s and 156s. The financial aspects are not in public domain so its hard to do more than speculate.

 

[HSTEd]

The government will become scared of the optics of ordering modern efficient diesels, so will do absolutely nothing instead and more carbon dioxide would be emitted than if they had simply bitten the bullet.

 

[Bikeman78]

There are 12 daily diagrams for GW HSTs, all full diagrams.

The small 80x cascade is only intended to reduce the HST numbers slightly to release sets for forthcoming overhauls and reduce the pressure on the sets slightly to eek out miles.

There are enough capacity problems on the West Fleet without arbitrarily removing a vast chunk of the fleet, you only have to look at the comments elsewhere on the forum about the number of short forms on Pompey/Cardiff to realise its a fleet under pressure.

Where will the 802s come from? Shorter trains to Plymouth and Penzance perhaps? It will be interesting to see how often the spare HSTs turn out to cover unit diagrams.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Where will the 802s come from? Shorter trains to Plymouth and Penzance perhaps? It will be interesting to see how often the spare HSTs turn out to cover unit diagrams.

The 80x have come from the changes to Bedwyn services.

 

[MattRat]

If Northern did get a big Sprinter replacement order, might it make sense to me for them to order enough to also replace the 2-car 195s, which could then head south? I think the numbers line up reasonably well for them to see off all of GWR's 150s and perhaps also the worst few 158s.

If we are looking at 19x, why not buy some new? They are cheap to build, and you can make a big order by getting them to also replace HSTs, since the Welsh 19x will be doing long distance services so prove they are capable of replacing HSTs.

 

[JonathanH]

If we are looking at 19x, why not buy some new?

The objective is to reduce the number of trains solely fueled by diesel - therefore no more 19x and redistribution of the existing 19x over time to the routes where diesel is the only option.

 

[AGH]

Got to be flirts for Northern with the extent of electrification already in the cities.

 

[skyhigh]

Got to be flirts for Northern with the extent of electrification already in the cities.

Not necessarily. A CAF bimode is entirely possible, particularly if it's compatible with existing 195s

 

[MattRat]

Got to be flirts for Northern with the extent of electrification already in the cities.

Not necessarily. A CAF bimode is entirely possible, particularly if it's compatible with existing 195s

Pretty certain that was the idea behind the 769s, until they were a massive flop.....

 

[Trainbike46]

Pretty certain that was the idea behind the 769s, until they were a massive flop.....

There's a rather big difference between a train designed to be a bimode (755 and 80x) and retrofitting an old electric train to become bimode.

A Civity bimode might be perfectly possible

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Though it would probably more closely resemble class 331 than the 19x

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Which isn't to say that I don't think Northern ordering a big fleet of FLIRT bimodes would be a fantastic idea, they truly are excellent trains

 

[py_megapixel]

Which isn't to say that I don't think Northern ordering a big fleet of FLIRT bimodes would be a fantastic idea, they truly are excellent trains

To be fair, FLIRTs may be brilliant by British standards, but by continental European standards they are fairly average for trains of their age. There is very similar stock, with the same features people praise over here, built by not only Stadler but also Alstom, Siemens and others.

 

[MattRat]

There's a rather big difference between a train designed to be a bimode (755 and 80x) and retrofitting an old electric train to become bimode.

A Civity bimode might be perfectly possible

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2022 ==

Though it would probably more closely resemble class 331 than the 19x

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Which isn't to say that I don't think Northern ordering a big fleet of FLIRT bimodes would be a fantastic idea, they truly are excellent trains

I meant they wanted the 769s to be the bi mode fleet, presumably they were cheaper to procure. But now that they flopped who knows. Although I've heard Northern are looking at hybrid 195s, but that's just speculation.

 

[XAM2175]

Pretty certain that was the idea behind the 769s, until they were a massive flop.....

A Civity bimode might be perfectly possible

CAF literally list a bi-mode option as being available for the Civity family:

CAF-Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, your railway solutions

CAF est un leader international en matière de conception, fabrication, maintenance et livraison d’équipements et de composants pour systèmes ferroviaires.

www.caf.net

That's not to say that they'll be capable of delivering it on time and on budget, but as an option it's distinct from strapping diesels onto old EMUs.

 

[py_megapixel]

CAF literally list a bi-mode option as being available for the Civity family:

CAF-Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, your railway solutions

CAF est un leader international en matière de conception, fabrication, maintenance et livraison d’équipements et de composants pour systèmes ferroviaires.

www.caf.net

That's not to say that they'll be capable of delivering it on time and on budget, but as an option it's distinct from strapping diesels onto old EMUs.

They also make low-floor Civity units with sliding steps, which really anything new should be ordered with now in my opinion.

 

[Trainbike46]

They also make low-floor Civity units with sliding steps, which really anything new should be ordered with now in my opinion.

yes, that just needs to be a standard for all new rolling stock. I'm honestly surprised it wasn't included in the PRM rules, at least for new stock

 

[HamworthyGoods]

yes, that just needs to be a standard for all new rolling stock. I'm honestly surprised it wasn't included in the PRM rules, at least for new stock

Low floor stock to replace GWR 150s would be an interesting one. To go low floor much of the equipment has to go on the roof and we all know how well roof mounted stock copes along the Sea Wall…

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, FLIRTs may be brilliant by British standards, but by continental European standards they are fairly average for trains of their age. There is very similar stock, with the same features people praise over here, built by not only Stadler but also Alstom, Siemens and others.

It's time it becomes mandatory to
spec low floor. Then the manufacturers will all do it.

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Low floor stock to replace GWR 150s would be an interesting one. To go low floor much of the equipment has to go on the roof and we all know how well roof mounted stock copes along the Sea Wall…

It can go in the "thrash cupboard"
instead.

 

[XAM2175]

They also make low-floor Civity units with sliding steps, which really anything new should be ordered with now in my opinion.

Agreed.

Low floor stock to replace GWR 150s would be an interesting one. To go low floor much of the equipment has to go on the roof and we all know how well roof mounted stock copes along the Sea Wall…

They don't need to be low-floor, per se - they just need to offer level boarding at the standard platform height. If that means that some platforms have to be raised or otherwise modified, then so be it.

 

[py_megapixel]

Low floor stock to replace GWR 150s would be an interesting one. To go low floor much of the equipment has to go on the roof and we all know how well roof mounted stock copes along the Sea Wall…

Stadler's solution of sealing it all in its own above-floor compartment might actually be better in that regard than having it exposed either above or below the saloon.