Caledonian Sleeper: How should it be run and what changes would you like to see?

[StephenHunter]

Couldn't the whole thing be simplified to do away with split portions/shunting etc?

Just run a train Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee - Perth - London and another Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - London and forget Fort William.

That would at least bring the costs down.

William makes sense summer only for the Jacobite; maybe as a separate train.

 

[Davester50]

A lot of this is speculation now, so would probably be better debated in the speculation threads that come up every time something happens to the Sleeper.

What happens to the operation is unknown at present, whether it stays as a stand-alone TS operated service, rolled in to a Greater ScotRail operation, or even a difficult decision to cull some or all of it.
Anything else is a sideshow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couldn't the whole thing be simplified to do away with split portions/shunting etc?

Just run a train Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee - Perth - London and another Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - London and forget Fort William.

That would at least bring the costs down.

If you wanted to really simplify it without losing too much, you could order new bimode locomotives, shorten the portions slightly, bin the Aberdeen (replaced by a guaranteed connection from an HST) and have some coaches converted to driving trailers and run it more like a MU so the traincrews could handle the shunting which would be no more complex than coupling or uncoupling DMUs and EMUs which is done all over the UK by traincrews without dedicated shunting staff.

But again I don't think this sort of thing is likely to be on the agenda as it costs money.

I remain surprised that when it was refreshed they didn't go for a multiple unit style operation, even if locomotives were used because DMU racket would be unacceptable for sleeping coaches.

But as some have pointed out running Inverness via Aberdeen etc isn't good because you miss out high tourist demand places like Aviemore.

 

[kylemore]

Once upon a time someone would have suggested putting a couple of fish vans on too!

It's an indication of just how useless our railways have become that the idea of carrying fish (and other seafood) traffic by rail is regarded as utterly mad and whimsical.

Huge amounts of this stuff is carried daily from the north of Scotland to markets in London and the south - why shouldn't a properly managed railway be carrying a share of this valuable traffic in modern reefer wagons and/or containers, attached to sleeper trains or otherwise?

 

[ajrm]

Couldn't the whole thing be simplified to do away with split portions/shunting etc?

Just run a train Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee - Perth - London and another Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - London and forget Fort William.

That would at least bring the costs down.

It would also remove 25 destinations/pick-up points!

 

[D6130]

Couldn't the whole thing be simplified to do away with split portions/shunting etc?

Just run a train Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee - Perth - London and another Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - London and forget Fort William.

That would at least bring the costs down.

.....or bin both Lowlanders and run one train Inverness-Aberdeen-Dundee-Perth-Stirling-Edinburgh-London and another Fort William-Glasgow Queen St or Central Low Level-Motherwell-London. Both trains would have to be longer than the present portions to absorb the Glasgow/Edinburgh traffic and the FWM train would be tied to the length of the loops on the WHL, although a similar dispensation could be made as for the alumina tanks. More traction and hotel power would be required North of Edinburgh and Mossend, so they would probably have to revert to class 67 haulage.

 

[StephenHunter]

How busy is the Fort William portion in winter?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How busy is the Fort William portion in winter?

I suspect busier than some might think - the area is well-visited by winter climbers. I suspect autumn is probably the quietest season as the leisure hillwalkers aren't interested and there's no ice for the serious winter climbers to climb.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Some people seem to think the sleeper should be more upmarket. some seem to want to go downmarket.

No reason why we cant do both. You could easily add one luxury carriage, and one couchette carriage at the other end to attract the budget traveller!

I think there is a gap in the market - a budget option that allows you to get your head down on some sort of bed rather than the sit-up-in-your seat option which is all that the road coaches provide. (Though I think a sleeper-coach option was available for a time.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there is a gap in the market - a budget option that allows you to get your head down on some sort of bed rather than the sit-up-in-your seat option which is all that the road coaches provide. (Though I think a sleeper-coach option was available for a time.)

I used the sleeper coach and thought it was great, but what it did seem to prove is that there isn't really much of a market for that. That market probably takes a day off work, travels Standard Class on the train using an Advance or flies with easyJet, and stays in a Premier Inn.

Meanwhile the premium market either uses BA and a four star hotel or the Sleeper, and those on a real budget use either the Sleeper seats (which are generally cheaper than Avanti or LNER) or a sit-up road coach, or book a flight months ahead.

 

[JonathanH]

I think there is a gap in the market - a budget option that allows you to get your head down on some sort of bed rather than the sit-up-in-your seat option which is all that the road coaches provide.

It wasn't possible to create such an option within the UK loading gauge and safety regime that provided more 'berths' than the cabin arrangement they eventually went with.

on a real budget use either the Sleeper seats or a sit-up road coach

When the road coaches start at about £10 and go up to about £25 with reasonable notice, more at the last minute, there simply isn't any way that the railway is in that (limited) market. While there are stories of duplicate road coaches at certain times of the year, most nights there is no need.

 

[Davester50]

I suspect busier than some might think - the area is well-visited by winter climbers. I suspect autumn is probably the quietest season as the leisure hillwalkers aren't interested and there's no ice for the serious winter climbers to climb.

Mountain biking is also a popular draw for the area, although I'd imagine a lot of more serious bikers from the South East of England are going with all their kit on in a camper combi than putting it on a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mountain biking is also a popular draw for the area, although I'd imagine a lot of more serious bikers from the South East of England are going with all their kit on in a camper combi than putting it on a train.

Quite a lot of people are willing to drive through the night, an even more sleepless (and dangerous) activity than even sitting in a seat on a road coach. I find it bizarre (and wouldn't enjoy the day of activity after it), but enough people do it.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I used the sleeper coach and thought it was great, but what it did seem to prove is that there isn't really much of a market for that. That market probably takes a day off work, travels Standard Class on the train using an Advance or flies with easyJet, and stays in a Premier Inn.

Meanwhile the premium market either uses BA and a four star hotel or the Sleeper, and those on a real budget use either the Sleeper seats (which are generally cheaper than Avanti or LNER) or a sit-up road coach, or book a flight months ahead.

I can only speak for myself. I travelled to Glasgow to do a day's work and would have appreciated a proper lie-down (and not being frozen half to death by Serco's aircon.) I guess there may be budget-conscious tourists too who would prefer to start their holiday reasonably refreshed and not completed knackered so I'm sure there could be people who could be enticed at the prospect of having a reasonably decent night's sleep in exchange for paying a few pounds more than the coach. It would be a niche market, but then what market isn't?

 

[Snow1964]

Basically it needs rerouting, the days of business people using it are gone (cheap internal flights killed that).

They need to not think of it as a service between two city centres, but one serving leisure markets that are difficult to get to daytime. Not routes duplicating flights.

As an example, Midlands to Highlands, or Bristol to Lake District, or even Scotland to Southampton (splitting to coastal towns to Weymouth and Brighton)

Then change the marketing to journey as part of your holiday. It works for sleeper to Cornwall.

 

[bib]

If it was possible with the loading gauge, some sort of triple bunked couchette or pod car would a be great budget option, reckon you could probably get about 60 people in a carriage which would be fairly similar to a standard class carriage on a normal train.
Personally I think a hammock car would be the comfiest way to travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can only speak for myself. I travelled to Glasgow to do a day's work and would have appreciated a proper lie-down (and not being frozen half to death by Serco's aircon.) I guess there may be budget-conscious tourists too who would prefer to start their holiday reasonably refreshed and not completed knackered so I'm sure there could be people who could be enticed at the prospect of having a reasonably decent night's sleep in exchange for paying a few pounds more than the coach. It would be a niche market, but then what market isn't?

As I said, most of them will use a Premier Inn (other budget hotel chains are available, indeed in Edinburgh my personal recommendation would be Motel One, I forget if there's one in Glasgow) and a day flight or day train. Any business that expects people to daytrip from the South East to the Central Belt or vice versa and do a full day's work wants its head examining.

 

[kylemore]

It would also remove 25 destinations/pick-up points!

But not the most important ones. Easy connections are available from the rest - except perhaps from the West Highland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But not the most important ones. Easy connections are available from the rest - except perhaps from the West Highland.

I think Aviemore is quite possibly one of the most important and that's missed.

Are there stats for usage of intermediates anywhere, or will we have to wait for nationalisation and FoI them?

1. Unless it diverts to King's Cross as well there's a reversal at Wembley Yard after departing Euston, and 2. Why does a reversal change anything about longitudinal couchettes? The train will need doors on both sides regardless.

Replying from the other thread.

Yes, you'd have to run from KX to avoid reversals.

What have doors got to do with it? The safety issue with longitudinal couchettes and pods is that if you travel head first a collision would break your neck, and waking everyone up in the night to turn round isn't really viable.

 

[JamieL]

Couldn't the whole thing be simplified to do away with split portions/shunting etc?

Just run a train Inverness - Aberdeen - Dundee - Perth - London and another Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - London and forget Fort William.

That would at least bring the costs down.

Fort William and all the other communities between there and Glasgow including the Clyde Naval Base (Garelochead), Helensburgh, Dumbarton etc. Not really acceptable.

 

[HSTEd]

Unfortunately I don't think we have long enough platforms for a sleeper operation to ever work well economically. Crew intensity per passenger moved is just too high.

 

[Davester50]

Quite a lot of people are willing to drive through the night, an even more sleepless (and dangerous) activity than even sitting in a seat on a road coach. I find it bizarre (and wouldn't enjoy the day of activity after it), but enough people do it.

I can understand not wishing to take a bike and all it's equipment on a sleeper train, especially in the seats and moving stuff in the middle of the night.

 

[kylemore]

Fort William and all the other communities between there and Glasgow including the Clyde Naval Base (Garelochead), Helensburgh, Dumbarton etc. Not really acceptable.

I live in Ayrshire. It was deemed perfectly acceptable for Stranraer, Girvan, Ayr, Kilmarnock and Dumfries to be deprived of their various sleeper services at various times, and they combined have a population several times more than the places mentioned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can understand not wishing to take a bike and all it's equipment on a sleeper train, especially in the seats and moving stuff in the middle of the night.

What I can absolutely see a case for (and it'd cost £0) is swapping over the Aberdeen and the FW in terms of which has the separate lounge and seated coach. There's a potential demand for taking mountain bikers to the FW area as has been said, there's much less of one to Aberdeen, but they're not going to be interested if they have to be woken at 4am to move their stuff. The FW seated coach would likely also be more popular without the 4am shuffle.

 

[The Planner]

Lay off all the office staff and have the existing ScotRail staff take that over. Backoffice admin staff may be in Unions (but not the RMT generally) but have very little leverage.

GBRf do the train planning, so no staff to lose there.

 

[JonathanH]

The FW seated coach would likely also be more popular without the 4am shuffle.

The corollary, of course, is that the Aberdeen seated coach would be less popular. I doubt you have any analysis to hand which indicates that demand for seated accommodation is less for Dundee and Aberdeen than Fort William. We clearly know that the balance of sleeper coaches has changed over time but that does not necessarily mean that the seated demand follows the same pattern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GBRf do the train planning, so no staff to lose there.

There is an entire customer services operation, though.

 

[Kite159]

In my crayonist eyes, bring it back into being a sub-brand of Scotrail, similar to GWR. That way costs can be saved with duplication of job roles in customer services etc.

Highlander swap over so the lounge/seats go direct to Fort William with any seated passengers for Aberdeen have to change (depends on the average loadings for seated customers if it's used more by FW passengers)

 

[Davester50]

The corollary, of course, is that the Aberdeen seated coach would be less popular. I doubt you have any analysis to hand which indicates that demand for seated accommodation is less for Dundee and Aberdeen than Fort William. We clearly know that the balance of sleeper coaches has changed over time but that does not necessarily mean that the seated demand follows the same pattern.

Does the Inverness need as many sleepers, so a seated car could be attached all the way through from Fort William at the cost of 1 Inverness sleeper for the 16 that arrive at Euston?
I feel the Aberdeen portion (which I use the most) is one sleeper car too few, but from reading the treads over time, I (perhaps mistakenly) understand that the diagramming requires the 2/4 split.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my crayonist eyes, bring it back into being a sub-brand of Scotrail, similar to GWR. That way costs can be saved with duplication of job roles in customer services etc.

This is the obvious major saving. An entire sales and customer service operation for four trains per day means the cost of this per head is very high.

Does the Inverness need as many sleepers, so a seated car could be attached all the way through from Fort William at the cost of 1 Inverness sleeper for the 16 that arrive at Euston?
I feel the Aberdeen portion (which I use the most) is one sleeper car too few, but from reading the treads over time, I (perhaps mistakenly) understand that the diagramming requires the 2/4 split.

I believe the Inverness does regularly sell out. It (and places like Aviemore) have major tourist demand.