Caledonian Sleeper: How should it be run and what changes would you like to see?

[Peter Sarf]

Personally I now only use the CS when absolutely necessary and pay for a berth on top of a work-expensed off peak return.
It’s a dreadful sleeper experience if sleep is the main reason for travelling on it. That said I don’t see masses of berth availability if trying to book within a week or so. It’s obviously well used and pretty busy.. so I am curious as to what improvements could be made if it’s already seeing decent passenger loadings. Passengers do appear willing to pay the high prices CS charge.

I think the reality is :-
First cost savings from CS coming under Scotrails umbrella,
Second any subsidy that can be justified (increased tourism / access for some and politics),
Third higher prices to make up the difference (the carryings are there).

I think the budget end of the overnight market has been left behind and I doubt there is enough demand for a separate operation. I wish there was.

 

[Bald Rick]

If (and it is an if) the sleeper operation is transferred to Scotrail, the savings will be limited to:

1) reduced crewing costs through more efficient resourcing
2) reduced ‘back office’ costs through the integration of HR, finance, revenue management, contract management, and to a lesser extent marketing.

Both will mean fewer jobs - I’m sure the unions will welcome that as a consequence of ‘nationalisation’.

It might save a million or two a year. Compared to the £50m+ it costs to run. Every little helps of course, but don’t expect it to transform ticket prices.

 

[nlogax]

I think the budget end of the overnight market has been left behind and I doubt there is enough demand for a separate operation. I wish there was.

Indeed. Sleeper services ‘for the rest of us’ should be a priority for basic travel needs between both ends of the country, especially if we’re trying to reduce domestic air travel. I don’t have any faith that the forthcoming transfer will change things though.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed. Sleeper services ‘for the rest of us’ should be a priority for basic travel needs between both ends of the country, especially if we’re trying to reduce domestic air travel. I don’t have any faith that the forthcoming transfer will change things though.

Why sleeper services and not earlier/later day trains that take less time (which would also benefit passengers through the rest of the day)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why sleeper services and not earlier/later day trains that take less time (which would also benefit passengers through the rest of the day)?

The WCML already has one to get from Glasgow to London in time for a more typical 10am meeting/workshop start. Astonishing that the ECML doesn't.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Why sleeper services and not earlier/later day trains that take less time (which would also benefit passengers through the rest of the day)?

The WCML already has one to get from Glasgow to London in time for a more typical 10am meeting/workshop start. Astonishing that the ECML doesn't.

I suppose I am dreaming of an overnight CHEAP seated/dozing service.

 

[Bald Rick]

I suppose I am dreaming of an overnight CHEAP seated/dozing service.

There really isn’t the demand.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There really isn’t the demand.

Thought so. OK maybe only if impossibly cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose I am dreaming of an overnight CHEAP seated/dozing service.

There is one, it is called the Caledonian Sleeper. The seats are cheaper than the day trains, give or take Lumo.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They managed it before. It's 4 trains, 6 nights a week.

They did, yes - but weren't the specific staff in question TUPEd over to become dedicated to the Sleeper when it was split out from ScotRail originally?

 

[55002]

The WCML already has one to get from Glasgow to London in time for a more typical 10am meeting/workshop start. Astonishing that the ECML doesn't.

0540 from Edinburgh in at 0940?

 

[Bletchleyite]

0540 from Edinburgh in at 0940?

Bit late for a 10am workshop in the City. 9am meetings are a myth, but 10am ones aren't.

Run it half an hour earlier and it would be comparable to the WCML.

 

[fgwrich]

If (and it is an if) the sleeper operation is transferred to Scotrail, the savings will be limited to:

1) reduced crewing costs through more efficient resourcing
2) reduced ‘back office’ costs through the integration of HR, finance, revenue management, contract management, and to a lesser extent marketing.

Both will mean fewer jobs - I’m sure the unions will welcome that as a consequence of ‘nationalisation’.

It might save a million or two a year. Compared to the £50m+ it costs to run. Every little helps of course, but don’t expect it to transform ticket prices.

I wonder if the Social Media teams will end up being merged as well (CS's is based in Inverness, ScotRails I'm not sure about - WFH?). I have to admit, on this front I've used both, and found both to be rather competent and helpful.

 

[JonathanH]

Bit late for a 10am workshop in the City. 9am meetings are a myth, but 10am ones aren't.

Run it half an hour earlier and it would be comparable to the WCML.

The ECML appears to have a different access regime for engineering work to that on the WCML as appears to be evidenced by Lumo having to terminate at Newcastle in the late evening some weeks and there not being the same early trains from Edinburgh seen from Glasgow.

 

[TheBigD]

The ECML appears to have a different access regime for engineering work to that on the WCML as appears to be evidenced by Lumo having to terminate at Newcastle in the late evening some weeks and there not being the same early trains from Edinburgh seen from Glasgow.

Most noticable on Sundays with the ECML general starting up from around 8am (eg 0755 NCL-KGX). First southbound on the WCML on Sundays doesn't leave Carlisle until 1043.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I suppose I am dreaming of an overnight CHEAP seated/dozing service.

I suspect an overnight bus service copes sufficiently for this market, and can be run with much less subsidy and/or with lower fares.
Plus the number of passengers wanting to make this kind of trip each night barely justifies a carriage, never mind a whole inter city train.

 

[43096]

9am meetings are a myth

You keep saying this, but it isn’t a myth. 10am is a late start; I’ve been to far more 9am workshop starts than 10am. The problem is that these events always gave a degree of fannying around at the beginning, so if you start at 10 you lose a significant part of the day.

 

[irish_rail]

They would have to live in Penzance for a few years for that to work, the Night Riveria has a community feel to it as the staff are from PZ and well known to the customers, at least those from Cornwall.
Plus and importantly so, they bring the Cornish vibe to the service, so as soon as you board in Paddington you feel like you are in Cornwall and not England anymore, one of its really strong points.

Agree with this. South west is in my opinion the friendliest part of the UK. And although I'm slightly biased , yes the staff on the Riviera are indeed fantastic (including the drivers lol).

 

[Roast Veg]

2) reduced ‘back office’ costs through the integration of HR, finance, revenue management, contract management, and to a lesser extent marketing.

It's a shame that most of the marketing cost for CS has been spent already. I dread to think how much went on the website design alone...

 

[Falcon1200]

The railway isn't a job creation exercise.

Sacking staff doing the job today will not be a good look for the Scottish Government!

They managed it before. It's 4 trains, 6 nights a week.

So what are the staff who 'managed it before' doing now - Sitting in an office twiddling their thumbs? It is a considerably more complex and involved operation than any other passenger train service.

drastically lower the prices

How would the service be paid for in that case, given the huge subsidy it already requires at today's fares? As a Scottish taxpayer I can think of better ways of spending the money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ECML appears to have a different access regime for engineering work to that on the WCML as appears to be evidenced by Lumo having to terminate at Newcastle in the late evening some weeks and there not being the same early trains from Edinburgh seen from Glasgow.

Does the railway exist for passengers, or does it exist for engineers?

You keep saying this, but it isn’t a myth. 10am is a late start; I’ve been to far more 9am workshop starts than 10am. The problem is that these events always gave a degree of fannying around at the beginning, so if you start at 10 you lose a significant part of the day.

I genuinely find they mostly start at 10 on the first day to allow for travellers and for the host to get in, prepare the room, have a coffee and be ready to sign guests in.

 

[Carntyne]

Does the railway exist for passengers, or does it exist for engineers?



I genuinely find they mostly start at 10 on the first day to allow for travellers and for the host to get in, prepare the room, have a coffee and be ready to sign guests in.

It's for passengers, but if you don't allow engineers access to maintain it, then it's not going to last long.

 

[156421]

They would have to live in Penzance for a few years for that to work, the Night Riveria has a community feel to it as the staff are from PZ and well known to the customers, at least those from Cornwall.
Plus and importantly so, they bring the Cornish vibe to the service, so as soon as you board in Paddington you feel like you are in Cornwall and not England anymore, one of its really strong points.

Not sure when Cornwall ceased to be in England.

 

[Energy]

drastically lower the prices

Caledonian sleeper doesn't have problems filling its trains right now.

Instead of lowering prices they need to reduce the subsidy required to run the service. Reintagration with Scotrail could save on some staffing costs and running 4 trains (if they can fill them) could reduce the splitting trains and subsequently reduce some of the staff required.

 

[Falcon1200]

It's for passengers, but if you don't allow engineers access to maintain it, then it's not going to last long.

Yes indeed, but don't forget it runs for freight traffic too!

 

[Bald Rick]

Does the railway exist for passengers, or does it exist for engineers?

Passengers and freight.

But without the engineers, the railway doesn’t exist.

By all means restrict the time available for the engineers, but don’t complain when the wires come down at Prestonpans, for example.

 

[Wynd]

It certainly is, but Fort William and Aviemore are probably your key destinations for that, and the trails start pretty much on the edge of town there, unlike Aberdeen.

There are considerable efforts in to growing the offering, primarily because the sport is booming. Expansion of the sport will be supported by improved transport offerings.
There are a multitude of ways of traversing the last part of the journey. Staying in the shire for a few days, or weeks holiday, its like going anywhere.
We need to get off this idea that the car is the only way.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Caledonian sleeper doesn't have problems filling its trains right now.

Instead of lowering prices they need to reduce the subsidy required to run the service. Reintagration with Scotrail could save on some staffing costs and running 4 trains (if they can fill them) could reduce the splitting trains and subsequently reduce some of the staff required.

The CS operation would benefit from simplification, especially if the trains to the four remaining destinations from London can still be filled. There has got to be some saving from merging with Scotrail and might allow better support during times of disruption. Then its fares up as much as you dare and subsidy down. Otherwise its Mk5s sat in sidings doing nothing.

 

[paul1609]

If (and it is an if) the sleeper operation is transferred to Scotrail, the savings will be limited to:

1) reduced crewing costs through more efficient resourcing
2) reduced ‘back office’ costs through the integration of HR, finance, revenue management, contract management, and to a lesser extent marketing.

Both will mean fewer jobs - I’m sure the unions will welcome that as a consequence of ‘nationalisation’.

It might save a million or two a year. Compared to the £50m+ it costs to run. Every little helps of course, but don’t expect it to transform ticket prices.

If we got aside from the devolved politics and the problems of the current franchisee wouldnt it actually in terms of both cost saving and service integration make much more sense for it to become part of the West Coast operation in the future rather than Scotrail trying to service the sleepers major hub (London) 400 miles away from its current bases. Even LNER a Dft owned company would seem to make more sense than Scotrail.

 

[Wynd]

The CS operation would benefit from simplification, especially if the trains to the four remaining destinations from London can still be filled. There has got to be some saving from merging with Scotrail and might allow better support during times of disruption. Then its fares up as much as you dare and subsidy down. Otherwise its Mk5s sat in sidings doing nothing.

Surely, the focus of the revenue model, is to sell all the seats and beds? Not rack prices up "as much as you dare".