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Gatwick Express: Tickets marked "Not Gatwick Express" claimed as not valid at Brighton
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because it's a Gatwick Express branded service.
(Of course there's the thing about whether that sort of restriction is allowed by brand rather than by actual TOC which is in this case GTR, and @yorkie can elaborate on that and how it can be used to your advantage).
(Of course there's the thing about whether that sort of restriction is allowed by brand rather than by actual TOC which is in this case GTR, and @yorkie can elaborate on that and how it can be used to your advantage).
It would be effectively valid, because there is no provision for brand restricted tickets in the TSA, NRCoT, etc.
It is unlawful for GTR to issue tickets which restrict by brand.
GTR are going to be in the dock for this shortly; in the meantime anyone who uses a brand restricted ticket on the 'wrong' brand, and who is charged an excess/penalty/additional fare, is entitled to insist on a refund of the monies incorrectly charged.
The best tickets to use are those marked "Thameslink Only"; Govia Thameslink may attempt to argue that a ticket routed Thameslink Only is not valid on a train operated by Thameslink due to the branding of the train being "Gatwick Express" however this is a weak, nonsensical argument. So far, anyone anyone who has been in posession of a brand restricted fare and who was charged an excess/penalty/additional fare, when using such a ticket, who has requested a refund, has been successful in obtaining the refund.
Anyone who is wrongly charged should create a thread on the disputes section of the forum, we will be happy to advise on this; I will be happy to proof read any letter requesting a refund.
mangyiscute
Established Member
Would you recommend buying the cheaper tickets then and claiming refunds, or do you think the hassle of the refund claim isn't worth it. Also, is this also the case with the Southern day saver - if I used it on Thameslink or Gatwick Express could I claim back any penalty fare?
There is no provision within the regulatory regime for any brand restricted tickets.
However the case for Thameslink Only tickets (on any GTR brand) is stronger and much more straightforward (i.e. could be less hassle) than "Not Gatwick Express" tickets, or "Southern Daysaves" on the 'wrong brand'.
I would say it absolutely is worth using a TL only ticket on GX/SN brands, and if you are wrongly charged, definitely do claim a refund. I am happy to proof read any letters. While I cannot guarantee that GTR will refund any individual, I can say that the success rate so far of anyone we have helped (or even become aware of appealing without our help) is 100%.
However the case for Thameslink Only tickets (on any GTR brand) is stronger and much more straightforward (i.e. could be less hassle) than "Not Gatwick Express" tickets, or "Southern Daysaves" on the 'wrong brand'.
I would say it absolutely is worth using a TL only ticket on GX/SN brands, and if you are wrongly charged, definitely do claim a refund. I am happy to proof read any letters. While I cannot guarantee that GTR will refund any individual, I can say that the success rate so far of anyone we have helped (or even become aware of appealing without our help) is 100%.
Another great day on the Brighton line!
I'm struggling to find any Not Gatwick Express tickets, apart from a child flat fare. There are Thameslink only tickets. It's nearly impossible to travel direct from Brighton up towards London with a Southern Daysave ticket.
Except on Sunday. The rest of the week you just go via Hove.
Alex365Dash
Member
When the Southern services from Victoria to Brighton were withdrawn on weekdays (iirc), GTR changed the Not Gatwick Express routed fares from Brighton itself to route Any Permitted.
The stations nearby didn’t change though, so if you’ve come off an ex-Hastings train from London Road at Brighton holding a London Road (Brighton) to London Victoria Super Off-Peak Day Return (AM2 or PDR, point stands regardless) route Not Gatwick Express you then would have to* change at East Croydon off Thameslink, go via Hove, or just start your journey by going via Lewes.
*According to GTR’s incorrect interpretation that you can restrict tickets by brand rather than TOC…
WizCastro197
Established Member
Shouldn't the board go into further detail, explaining that the restriction only applies between Gatwick and Victoria? I may be incorrect, but aren't you allowed to use your ticket on GatEx between Brighton and Gatwick? Southern seems to say so...
On a side note, apologies if I have got this wrong, but do Southern ONLY tickets exist? I've never seen one before.
On a side note, apologies if I have got this wrong, but do Southern ONLY tickets exist? I've never seen one before.
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Alex365Dash
Member
They’re generally offered on West Coastway flows entirely between Cosham and Southampton Central inclusive, where Southern are the only GTR brand on that stretch of line. I’m not sure if they’re offered anywhere else other than that…apart from Southern Only advances and DaySave.
pdeaves
Established Member
Please excuse my ignorance here, but surely TOC-only tickets, 'Route Thameslink' (or similar), restrict by brand and are acceptable. How is this case (Brighton; Gatwick Express) different?
Not doubting the accuracy of your statement; I think there is more to it than has been written.
You are absolutely correct that a Thameslink Only ticket, as an operator restriction (i.e. restricted to GTR only) is absolutely acceptable; my point is simply that they are valid on all brands of GTR, precisely for that exact reason. These are "Dedicated" fares.
It is brand restrictions which are not permitted.
Hopefully that clarifies
Say so where? I don't think that's something which has ever been written down.
I concur; if anyone has a source, it could be 'interesting' to say the least.
Only on a limited number of journeys, for example Gatwick to London Victoria (specifically).
GTR do appear to have removed a lot of the pre-existing Southern Only fares since the 2015 merger, but not all, meaning they have failed to fulfil their obligations under the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA).
WizCastro197
Established Member
I am not sure if what I have provided is quite what you are looking for, but when I gathered this information, I was looking at Redhill to Brighton, and it is suggesting taking GatEx to Brighton from Gatwick at no additional charge to the other possibilities such as taking Thameslink the entire way, still with the change at Gatwick Airport.
Booking Engine
ticket.southernrailway.com
The 12:07 is the option that suggests using Gatwick Express. I will continue to look for it down in writing however.
Attachments
There are no brand restricted fares between Redhill and Brighton, so therefore it is not surprising the ticket is shown as valid on all trains.
I am not sure if what I have provided is quite what you are looking for, but when I gathered this information, I was looking at Redhill to Brighton, and it is suggesting taking GatEx to Brighton from Gatwick at no additional charge to the other possibilities such as taking Thameslink the entire way, still with the change at Gatwick Airport.
Booking Engine
The 12:07 is the option that suggests using Gatwick Express. I will continue to look for it down in writing however.
Indeed; the fare concerned is unrouted (route "dot", aka Any Permitted)
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=RDH&dest=BTN&rte=1000&tkt=CDS#
WizCastro197
Established Member
Ah, Alright, thanks for explaining it despite. However, I could've sworn on other threads it was flagged that GatEx was usable with "Any Route Permitted' tickets between Gatwick and Brighton.Indeed; the fare concerned is unrouted (route "dot", aka Any Permitted)
Look up fares for any train journey in Britain
Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.www.brfares.com
CDS
Gatwick Express is totally usable on Any Permitted route tickets. Why would it not be?
GTR do not dispute the validity of fully inter-available "Any Permitted route" tickets (not "any route permitted", which would be a bit more generous
)I think your confusion is that GTR sometimes purport that the only tickets which are valid on these services are those routed "Any Permitted", so you've got their claim the wrong way round.
They are also available between Epsom and London, though they offer a pitiful saving.
bakerstreet
Member
In case it’s of interest, I’ve pasted here a link to a post I made recently comparing what the screens at Brighton used to say when GatEx stock was used from Brighton to Victoria on Southern services.
www.railforums.co.uk
GTR are up to their old tricks again. GX tickets
I am sat at London Victoria and there is an announcement for the Brighton service operated by Gatwick Express calling at Gatwick airport and Brighton only. It is an announced please ensure you have the correct ticket for the service.
www.railforums.co.uk
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You still see this when GatEx branded units end up on e.g. Coastway services.
Just to expand slightly on @yorkie's answer and give a few more examples the issue isn't that these are Operator Only tickets, as you point out those are acceptable. You can have Northern Only, GWR Only, etc etc. The issue is that Gatwick Express, Southern and Thameslink are not separate TOCs but are three different brands of the same TOC (GTR). If you buy a ticket from London to Brighton whether you travel on a train branded Southern, Gatwick Express or Thameslink you are travelling on a service operated by GTR.
This is where the issue lies. If you dig into the regulatory framework it is permissible to restrict by operator but there is no provision to restrict by brand.
It would be akin to GWR selling fares marked "HST Castle Class Only", ScotRail selling "Inter7City Only" or LNER "InterCity 225 Only". Those are brands used (to varying degrees) by those operators but there is no provision within the fares system for them to make that distinction as they cannot restrict by their own brands. Only by operator. Typically this hasn't been much of an issue as most TOCs either don't have sub-brands at all or they're quite limited/light touch but on GTR due the ways that the operation was built from three formally separate companies it's become a problem. If Gatwick Express was still an independent operator then there would, again, be no issue.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
GWR did that sort of thing in the past (may still do) in that on certain Off Peak tickets they allowed evening peak travel on Turbo services but not HST ones. However the way they implemented it was using a horribly confusing ticket restriction that was based around the exact timings of each train, so I guess that was allowed. Similar principle, though.
Presumably GTR could actually do that for all bar Anytime tickets if they could be bothered creating a restriction code with 50+ specific trains named in it?
Presumably GTR could actually do that for all bar Anytime tickets if they could be bothered creating a restriction code with 50+ specific trains named in it?
Not really; this was not in any way a brand restriction.
I don't think they could get away with claiming that "peak" times apply for one minute twice an hour throughout the entire day!
mangyiscute
Established Member
While it was confusing, nowadays every single fast(ish) GWR train from London to Reading from 4-7 roughly is peak, so now you have to take the elizabeth line or wait for ages. At least with the old system you'd just be on one which takes 35 rather than 25 mins, rather than 60 now
miklcct
On Moderation
The main difference between GTR and the "brands" of other operators is that, operationally, TL, GX, SN and GN are still 4 different "operators" in the Network Rail and National Rail industry systems with separate codes, while all the Stansted Express, Inter7City, Castle Class or InterCity 225 aren't different operators in the industry systems and the services are listed under the code of the real operator. Therefore it is possible to restrict a ticket to be not valid on GX services but not only specific services inside a single operator unless using the time-based restrictions to get around it.
It may be technically possible, but the legal framework of the railways does not allow it to be done.
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