End of the line for return rail tickets

[Haywain]

If we are to have digital tickets, then these must conform to a national system and be accepted by all TOCs

We already have them and they are accepted nationally.

 

[jayah]

If that's really what this means I doubt many will use the train.

For example Haywards Heath to Eastbourne off peak return is currently £15.80 which is already quite a lot compared to driving.

Single is £15.30 so will they now want £30.60 for *one* person to make this off peak journey? That's an absolutely ridiculous price! Who would pay that?

Or am I misunderstanding this?

Almost nobody will buy the £15.30 single, so the expectation is much closer to half of £15.80.

 

[778]

More ladders than snakes, though the devil is always in the detail.

It makes it easier to implement evening ticket restrictions and easier to avoid them.

Less confusion than return tickets with asymmetric time restrictions in either direction.

Cheaper to mix Peak one way and Off Peak the other.

May dramatically enhance long distance split ticketing options where the best prices now are only available as Off Peak Day Returns.

Would any morning and evening peak restrictions apply only Monday - Friday, or would it include Saturdays and Sundays? Also what would it mean for the cross London agreement? I assume this is going to be the end of the Network Railcard and Outboundary London Travelcards.

I think the only reason they are doing this is to increase fares without the majority of people realising it. It does not make sense otherwise. They want to make leisure travellers pay more, to make up for lost revenue from less people using trains in the pak periods since covid.

If and when it does get introduced I can see people buying the ticket for the outbound journey, but forgetting to buy the ticket for the return journey, because they are used to buying return tickets.

 

[Runningaround]

Can't they just make a single half the price of a return?
Wait, it's the government so they just want money, nevermind.

Can't they make the whole journey the price it should be and not need multiple splits to travel exactly the same route, services and distance for a cheaper price.
So a £35 trip to Coventry is £35 when split but £60 odd if you buy without doing so. I use the same trains, and travel the same distance so it should cost me £35. So why are they allowed to pull off this ''scam''. If the MP's paid out of their own pocket and realised that after four years of travel from constituency to London was quarter of the price by splitting they'd feel ripped off and demand as to why it's so

Just think splits with singles involved instead of six you'll be getting twelve, I just hope the TVMs are supplied to cater for the demand and phone memory and batteries have evolved into super computers that last

 

[jayah]

Would any morning and evening peak restrictions apply only Monday - Friday, or would it include Saturdays and Sundays? Also what would it mean for the cross London agreement? I assume this is going to be the end of the Network Railcard and Outboundary London Travelcards.

I think the only reason they are doing this is to increase fares without the majority of people realising it. It does not make sense otherwise. They want to make leisure travellers pay more to make up for lost revenue less commuter journeys.

There are already fares with weekend time restrictions. Why do you assume they are scrapping the Network Railcard?

 

[duncanp]

If we are to have digital tickets, then these must conform to a national system and be accepted by all TOCs. I don't want to have to buy a separate ticket for my connecting Merseyrail train to Liverpool or Chester because ME doesn't recognize Avanti, Northern or TfW tickets. I will inevitably be out of pocket if I have to do this. And, as an old man with a weak bladder, I fear that if Hooton ticket office closes then the toilets at Hooton station will also close. With class 507/508 amd 777 units having no toilets, loos at stations like Hooton are a godsend.

I don't agree with charging per mile. Fares should taper for longer journeys. And charging per mile would be unfair for passengers forced to take circuitous routes due to railway geography or poor services/timings on direct routes. The concept of "Any permitted" routings at a fixed fare must remain.

If you have charging per mile, then what do you do if there are stopping and fast services on the same route, such as Gatwick to Victoria, Cambridge to Kings Cross or Coventry to Birmingham New Street?

Would you go back to the old British Rail practice of advertising the stopping service from Gatwick to Victoria as only going to Clapham Junction?

 

[778]

Except for all the places they are not accepted e.g. London Undergound, Elizabeth Line, Luton Airport etc....


There are already fares with weekend time restrictions. Why do you assume they are scrapping the Network Railcard?

I thought that peak restrictions only occured in the Morning and Evening peak periods Monday - Friday, unless you mean super off peak restrictions?

I assume they will get rid of the Network railcard because it is probably losing the railway revenue. I am surprised it has not been scrapped already to be honest.

 

[Starmill]

I strongly support the abolition of return tickets, even if it means I may need to pay more travelling in the evening peak. The savings made when I take the train out / coach back, or triangular journeys as mentioned before, are large enough. It also reduces the need to find loophole tickets / creative routing just because I don't use the exact same route out and back and travelling between the exact same points.

For example, if I start from Waterloo and return to Wimbledon, effectively part of the return ticket is wasted. By using singles I can just buy exact what I want just before I board the train.

As others have suggested this sounds like a case for your desire for cheaper singles. That's obviously fine but that doesn't equate to removing returns because the sum of two new singles could be much more than the return price would have been, or alternatively the single could be set at 50% of the return and both offered (Lumo does the latter).

 

[Watershed]

Industry leaders and commentors (eg Christian Woolmar, Man at Seat 61,etc etc) have been calling for this move for a long time as a way of making rail travel more attractive and anyone who reads the railway press will know that.

I'm therefore surprised there's so much negativity on this forum to the very concept.

It's also recognised that there will be winners and losers. What is vital is that there are more winners than losers. That's my concern - it simply has to be got right.

The negativity is not to the concept of single leg pricing. In theory it's a good concept.

The problem comes when that theory turns into practice, with the government having decided that this is a good reason to abolish returns (it isn't) and likely directing TOCs to price singles at around 70% of the current return, as well as adding evening time restrictions to fares that don't currently have them.

Knowing this government, there is no way there will be more winners than losers - and if there were, it would mean the losers paying much more than they currently do.

It is better to keep the current imperfect structure, than to allow the government to enact a huge price increase through the back-door in the same way they did back in 2008 with that round of "simplification".

 

[jayah]

I thought that peak restrictions only occured in the Morning and Evening peak periods Monday - Friday, unless you mean super off peak restrictions?

I assume they will get rid of the Network railcard because it is probably losing the railway revenue. I am surprised it has not been scrapped already to be honest.

Super Off Peak and Off Peak are the same product, just with different times.

There is little consistency except if only one exists, it is Off Peak and where both exist the Super version has a longer restriction.

You can even have Off Peak Returns (one month) and Off Peak Day Returns on the same route, with different restrictions, that is one confusion that actually should disappear with return tickets.

What you say about the Network Railcard (if true) has been so for 20 years. It is also likely the reason why anecdotally off-peak rail travel in the SE is higher than elsewhere by an order of magnitude.

Similar could also be said about national railcards that pay for themselves in one journey, Groupsave tickets or lavishly funded TfL / PTE concessionary travel.

 

[robbeech]

There is little consistency except if only one exists, it is Off Peak and where both exist the Super version has a longer restriction.

Not necessarily. We’ve already spoken in this thread about the removal of the off peak product between London and Leeds, only anytime and super off peak singles are available now, the off peak product nowhere to be seen (and price increases for some passengers as a result)

 

[jayah]

Not necessarily. We’ve already spoken in this thread about the removal of the off peak product between London and Leeds, only anytime and super off peak singles are available now, the off peak product nowhere to be seen (and price increases for some passengers as a result)

There are still Off Peak tickets with EMR.

The devil is always in the detail.

You would think they would not want a huge cliff, with prices more halving between 1116 and 1118. That is probably why there were three tiers before.

That said, with Super Off Peak Single creating a lower ceiling for Advance Single, and making it far cheaper to mix Anytime and Super Off Peak singles, it is probably creating far more winners than losers.

 

[jayah]

Would they make it a condition of travel that you must tap in before boarding the train.

So to use my earlier example, would they program the gates at station C to reject the ticket if the ticket hadn't been scanned before boarding at B.

Then what happens if station C doesn't have any gates, or is unstaffed?

Most gatelines aren't programmed for Break of Journey. Many won't let you out to buy a coffee, and if they do they won't let you back in.

On Contactless you already tap in AND out?

 

[Purple Train]

"Ticketing reform" is precisely what is needed, so at first glance, I was optimistic.
But removing returns is a ridiculous idea - where is the flexibility? And, of course, it'll be used as an excuse for damaging price hikes which will drive people away from the railways, and bring cutbacks and a vicious circle; precisely the government's horrible agenda I suppose. I wonder what sort of simplification precipitated the success of the Settle and Carlisle and Network SouthEast? How they can look at countries like Austria (with its KlimaTicket) and, to pick another example quoted on this thread, Netherlands, and claim that lower fares aren't financially viable?
I also don't like the move away from paper tickets, though that's simply because I feel personally secure with a physical ticket and insecure with some electronic nonsense!
Fares reform is urgently needed, but we need something that is cheap and flexible, not expensive and inconvenient fares that are still confusing.
The spectre of another Beeching is looming.

 

[WelshBluebird]

To those happy about this, or suggesting it isn't going to result in passengers losing out, what about the following?

1. Given if you just cut the off peak and anytime day returns in half, it would mean someone who currently gets an anytime return because of morning only restrictions will be able to pay for an anytime single for their outbound trip and an off peak single to return. Great you may think. But of course the government won't make changes that lose the railways more money so the reality is that either the prices will not be half, or if they are we will get a serious expansion of evening peak time restrictions. Neither of those are good for passengers.
2. Given period returns are more expensive than day returns, what will happen here? If the single fare ends up being half the day return, then the railway will loose money so I can't see that happening. If the single fare ends up being half of the period return, then that will likely be a significant increase in the regular single and day return prices for people. Of course maybe it isn't either and ends up being somewhere in the middle - in which case everyone loses!
3. Currently period returns allow for break of journey of multiple days. Singles do not. So if I want to break my journey over multiple days I will end up having to buy different tickets for each day, likely costing a lot more.
4. If my outbound journey is disrupted enough for me to adandon it, will I still be able to get a refund on my now unrelated single that I was going to use to return with?
5. Will they reduce the railcard minimum fares? I doubt it - and if they don't that means many journeys (where the return is more than the minimum fare but the single is less than it) that used to be eligible for railcard discounts will no longer be.

so the expectation is much closer to half of £15.80.

"Much closer to half" is still a price rise by the back door if it isn't actually half though!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

We don't know the single fares yet.

But history tells us that they won't just half all the existing fares

Does it? LNER halved the Super Off Peak. They did abolish the Off Peak (the old Business Saver, which e.g. the WCML doesn't have anyway) but many people who were using that could switch to a combination of a Super Off Peak and Anytime Single at a similar price.

As for Anytimes most long distance returns are double the singles anyway.

I would love to know how many people travel on singles and so what it'd take for it to be revenue neutral. Doubt we will find out though.

 

[nw1]

This is true... but I welcome the introduction of greater evening peak restrictions. We need to get more out of the infrastructure we have and that means pushing demand to different times of day.

I presume you're not a passenger?

 

[yorkie]

Does it? LNER halved the Super Off Peak. They did abolish the Off Peak

Exactly!

(the old Business Saver, which e.g. the WCML doesn't have anyway) but many people who were using that could switch to a combination of a Super Off Peak and Anytime Single at a similar price.

I refer you to my earlier post with screenshots, showing increases in prices with a decrease in flexibility.

I also refer you to the Derby - Sheffield example; do you think that will be halved?

Make no mistake, there is no way the Government are going to agree to halve all return fares; many people will be paying more if this happens!

 

[Gathursty]

My main concern is that prices will double as you'd need two singles or will certainly increase as I doubt the government will halve the price accordingly.

My other concern could be unfounded but perhaps some route options might be discounted on single tickets as opposed to a return.

 

[VC00]

My other concern could be unfounded but perhaps some route options might be discounted on single tickets as opposed to a return.

Several cases in Scotland, I assume the fare changes will happen there aswell?

 

[Bletchleyite]

My main concern is that prices will double as you'd need two singles or will certainly increase as I doubt the government will halve the price accordingly.

My other concern could be unfounded but perhaps some route options might be discounted on single tickets as opposed to a return.

Of course routes matter less with single fare pricing, as you simply purchase when you have decided.

It would have been useful for me far more than I'd have lost out from it.

Interestingly with a Network Railcard I always buy two singles when going to London outbound in the peak - it's about a fiver cheaper!

 

[Starmill]

It could be done in a similar way to GWR, by removing the period returns and lowering the singles to half of the previous corresponding period return, while retaining Day Returns.

 

[Gathursty]

Of course routes matter less with single fare pricing, as you simply purchase when you have decided.

It would have been useful for me far more than I'd have lost out from it.

Interestingly with a Network Railcard I always buy two singles when going to London outbound in the peak - it's about a fiver cheaper!

I'm not completely writing off this idea. I think I'd like to see examples from Wigan to London/Manchester before I comment further. Comments I've seen so far don't apply to me or anywhere near me so I will wait for number crunching to be done.

 

[Richardr]

The Times story includes:

Passengers could be faced with a stealth increase in costs if discounted return tickets are scrapped and all fares offered at “single-leg pricing” for each stage of their journeys.

and

Commentators calculated that some trips could be a third more expensive if return tickets are scrapped.

It won't be long after details come out that the media will highlight the losers and not the winners - that is how these things work out

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...assengers-forced-to-buy-two-singles-5gtk7n5d5

 

[Skie]

Well hopefully this fixes the Merseyrail farce where a single is about 20p cheaper than a return. Could save plenty of money when you're going out one day and coming back another if the singles were 50% of each return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not completely writing off this idea. I think I'd like to see examples from Wigan to London/Manchester before I comment further. Comments I've seen so far don't apply to me or anywhere near me so I will wait for number crunching to be done.

If the LNER model was followed Wigan to London SVS would just be half of the present SVR. The WCML doesn't have BVRs. Though it'd not surprise me to see them take the opportunity to nudge WCML walkups up to similar per mile levels of other routes, for historical reasons related to SuperSaver abolition they are about 10% below.

For local fares I don't really know, it's all a bit tied up in the likes of contactless. My suspicion would be half of the relevant day return but with evening peak restrictions added where not already present.

There are relatively few routes where a period return and a day return exists (though there are some flows around 50 miles where they do e.g. MK to London).

 

[miklcct]

I would love to know how many people travel on singles and so what it'd take for it to be revenue neutral. Doubt we will find out though.

My N=1 record from 2021 indicates that I have used 90 returns (excluding Travelcards) and 12 singles in just over 13 months.

So I'll expect, even the returns are abolished, the singles will be about 53% of the former return price for me to break even.

 

[Cdd89]

70% of a return is excessive but I would not be against a small premium, to account for the added flexibility to those making asymmetric journeys. Also, the revenue loss from those who have bought singles at the current exorbitant rates - the discussion around winners and losers ignores the fact that the current system has huge losers.

One nasty I haven’t seen mentioned upthread is the thought of being charged two admin fees for refunding a “return” journey. These admin fees are completely unacceptable for eTickets, in any event. Unless retailers would levy these per itinerary anyway? - but clearly not if booked separately.

I wonder if one motivation for scrapping returns is abuse of period returns. An acquaintance was bragging about how he regularly reuses open returns to travel between London and an ungated station near Winchester, opening the gates in London using his 60+ Oyster. There is currently no reliable way of detecting this sort of behaviour but tickets fixed to a day would severely curb it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect some of the income to offset the cost of doing this indeed comes from preventing people using Anytime Returns as pseudo season tickets. That'll be why they don't offer returns at twice the relevant single, I guess.

1. Currently period returns allow for break of journey of multiple days. Singles do not. So if I want to break my journey over multiple days I will end up having to buy different tickets for each day, likely costing a lot more.

Sometimes less, and breaking on your outward would be possible too.

1. If my outbound journey is disrupted enough for me to adandon it, will I still be able to get a refund on my now unrelated single that I was going to use to return with?

If you purchase two Advances now in one transaction you do, I can't see why walk ups would be any different.

1. Will they reduce the railcard minimum fares? I doubt it - and if they don't that means many journeys (where the return is more than the minimum fare but the single is less than it) that used to be eligible for railcard discounts will no longer be.

This is a fair point. Though Railcard minimum fares were probably due a fairly whacking increase anyway as they've been the same for years, so this would just achieve that by the back door.

On the subject of Delay Repay I've long found the 100% of return one a bit silly anyway. Why compensate proportionally more on ticket type? And two hour delays are quite rare, I think I have only had single figures of such claims ever, so it is not a big loss.

 

[450.emu]

As I read this thread there won't be a physical ticket to collect. It will either be on a contactless card of some kind or your mobile phone.

I used to fix the old Swecoin ticket machines, those ageing systems like Atos Tribute will breathe a sigh of relief I wonder if there will be an Oyster style tap in, tap out system, though I wonder about the risks of fraud or abuse any new system such as e tickets could be subject to. The Government have a poor track record when it comes to tech (looks at NHS Track&Trace)

I wonder if Mr Harper will use the excuse of the current strikes to end more franchises to help usher in GBR? Will existing OLRs (Operators of Last Resort) like LNER be the first to be part of GBR?