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Why does everybody get so uptight about a personal opinion that I found it easier to change trains when there was a well lit and signed option, available from the centre of the platform and I could do it in under 2 mins. I often can’t now.
I’m not commenting on the station, it’s facilities, number or quality of train services, staff etc, just one very specific aspect.
I did get off a VERY busy XC train this week and walked into a wall of people trying to get on and off, battled down to the B end and it def took longer than it used to… I missed my connection !
BNS above platform level is fantastic if you have a lot of time to go shopping or eat in a restaurant, but on my one gripe you’re not going to convince me it’s easier than it used to be.
Chill
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I don’t think it was originally, happy to be corrected if I’m wrong. Darkness and choking emissions were by design in the sixties.
The pre 2012 New Street was easier to change trains at. New Street as it is now does confuse people. Almost everytime I work into New Street, I get asked questions by passengers about finding their way to another platform or the exit, and thats no exaggeration. If ive time to spare or on a break, I usually take them. That did happen with the pre 2012 New Street of course, but not nearly so often.
Why does everybody get so uptight about a personal opinion that I found it easier to change trains when there was a well lit and signed option, available from the centre of the platform and I could do it in under 2 mins. I often can’t now.
I’m not commenting on the station, it’s facilities, number or quality of train services, staff etc, just one very specific aspect.
I did get off a VERY busy XC train this week and walked into a wall of people trying to get on and off, battled down to the B end and it def took longer than it used to… I missed my connection !
BNS above platform level is fantastic if you have a lot of time to go shopping or eat in a restaurant, but on my one gripe you’re not going to convince me it’s easier than it used to be.
Chill
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I don’t think it was originally, happy to be corrected if I’m wrong. Darkness and choking emissions were by design in the sixties.
I did get off a VERY busy XC train this week and walked into a wall of people trying to get on and off, battled down to the B end and it def took longer than it used to… I missed my connection !
How long was your connection? (Presumably you were eligible for Delay Repay unless it was into a very frequent service such as to Birmingham International.)
I think that a lot of people are forgetting just how congested the old 'single bridge+single barrier line' model of the 1960s had become with the massive growth in passenger volumes. Particularly with crowds from arriving trains piling up all the stairs and single escalators it was often impossible to get down quickly. And queues at the barrier line both entering and exiting.
The new design, with six main barrier lines does a very good job of diffusing the majority of passengers who are actually exiting or entering the station. By informally 'triaging' many interchanging passengers to the Red Lounge/Zone this greatly facilitates movement in other segments.
Don't forget that many interchanging public transport users also need to exit or enter the station. The Metro has come along, which was entirely incompatible with the old configuration.
Recent trips that I have made have included interchanging to a bus on Queensway and to Solihull, involving a walk to Moor Street. Quick exit at the 'A' end and straight out into Thousand Trades Square. Far quicker than struggling with the old layout.
Having been born and brought up in Birmingham and remembering the original station in steam/DMU days - it was always a gloomy smoke and fume-logged pit, trapped between the tunnels and the 'cliff face' of the Queens Hotel, Odeon and so on. The former Midland side still had a blackened overall roof.
Despite being a semi-regular user of New Street, I still find the layout a bit confusing.
It's simple enough on the map and in theory, but in reality, because it all looks the same, it's very disorientating, I regularly come up from platform level and have to try to find a landmark to work out where abouts on the concourse I am.
Despite being a semi-regular user of New Street, I still find the layout a bit confusing.
It's simple enough on the map and in theory, but in reality, because it all looks the same, it's very disorientating, I regularly come up from platform level and have to try to find a landmark to work out where abouts on the concourse I am.
Despite being a semi-regular user of New Street, I still find the layout a bit confusing.
It's simple enough on the map and in theory, but in reality, because it all looks the same, it's very disorientating, I regularly come up from platform level and have to try to find a landmark to work out where abouts on the concourse I am.
Well, quite. It’s not an intuitive staton to navigate and its design concept is completely different to every other British railway station, for no good reason.
Well, quite. It’s not an intuitive staton to navigate and its design concept is completely different to every other British railway station, for no good reason.
Youre absolutely right, it is a constrained site. Platform level, not much can be done, but on concourse level, it couldve been much nicer. The so called lounges are not lounges, theyre noisy and draughty waiting areas. They could be so much nicer. They couldve made proper and comfortable waiting lounges. The toilets have already had to be refurbished from the poorly designed ones upon rebuild, and already, in the gents, many of the privacy screens are missing, and have been for a while, and no attempt made to replace them. So they look run down and uncared for. The signage isn't fit for purpose, maybe this is why so many people get confused. The escalators are very often not working. Its just attention to detail. It couldve been made to look so much nicer.
Well, quite. It’s not an intuitive staton to navigate and its design concept is completely different to every other British railway station, for no good reason.
They have been renamed ‘zones’ (at least, up top).
Happened when the introduced the coloured LEDs on the main departure boards with the ‘Yellow lounge’ becoming the ‘Green zone’ at the same time. Presumably because yellow LEDs would have been harder to distinguish from the orange LED text on the boards.
I suggest the use of "lounges" is very, very unusual and not at all necessary. There's no good reason you couldn't have a single circulating space acting as the public right of way, and for each escalator and staircase to lead to a common interchange area, whether that is a single area or "paid" side corridors. Having to exit gates, get told to go to the "red" lounge and then re-enter gates and undergoing two ticket checks is a pain. No other station does this and it is not an intuitive station to use for the average British passenger. That's why it's a bad design and that's why many people don't like to change there.
Guess why so many passengers are brought up into the lounges and so many have to traverse the "unpaid" area. I was told this from the horse's mouth when I toured the under-construction New Street in 2012...
It certainly was, at least at less busy times. A central 'footbridge', 'A' platforms off one side and 'B' platforms off the other. I've always said that what was needed was the same thing only bigger and wider (plus a direct entrance off Stephenson Street for the tram stop). As I mentioned upthread, I believe the problem lies with the new, built before anything else, 'B' end, which in practice is 'B+' or 'Very B'. If you're doing an 'A'-to-'A' interchange then it's a long walk if you want to avoid 'going out and back in again' (which itself can involve a lengthy, indirect path). It has also had the effect of shifting the station amenities (tickets, information, etc.) westwards so that they are now further from both the Bullring and the Stephenson Street ramp.
I'm fortunate in that I don't need to use New Street for interchange (unless I'm doing something pointless on a West Midlands Day Ranger), but nevertheless I've still been confused because of the escalators all facing in the same direction. I can recall at least one occasion where I've alighted from a train, blindly gone up the nearest escalator and found myself where I didn't expect to be!
But one thing's for certain, we're stuck with it for the next 40-50 years until it's due for redevelopment again. Our younger members can look forward to seeing this happen; I'm looking forward to it myself but I'll be very, very old...
I suggest the use of "lounges" is very, very unusual and not at all necessary. There's no good reason you couldn't have a single circulating space acting as the public right of way, and for each escalator and staircase to lead to a common interchange area, whether that is a single area or "paid" side corridors. Having to exit gates, get told to go to the "red" lounge and then re-enter gates and undergoing two ticket checks is a pain. No other station does this and it is not an intuitive station to use for the average British passenger. That's why it's a bad design and that's why many people don't like to change there.
Guess why so many passengers are brought up into the lounges and so many have to traverse the "unpaid" area. I was told this from the horse's mouth when I toured the under-construction New Street in 2012...
There is no point in arguing over the semantics of 'lounge', 'waiting room', 'circulating area' or whatever. The basic point is that it is best for everyone for passengers to remain off the platforms until fairly close to the time that their train is due - possible platform changes, poor environment at platform level, un-neccesarily obstructing movement of passengers to/from earlier services, minimising distraction of dispatch staff, difficulties with providing information, etc.
So your solution is to have an additional 'barrier level', presumably with duplicate facilities 'inside the line', between the circulating space and the platforms? That would put the circulating space at Grand Central level so everyone accessing the station other than via the New Street/Stephenson Street 'Ramp' would have to go up an additional level and then down in two stages.
Plenty of other main stations effectively have 'two barrier' interchange. For example at Edinburgh Waverley you are very likely to arrive in one 'area', exit and then go and wait in or around the booking hall before heading to another 'area' for a subsequent train. At Manchester Piccadilly, if you arrive at (say) Platform 3 from the Hope Valley, with luggage, buggy or other impediment to easy movement you certainly won't struggle up the stairs to the bridge. You will exit through the barriers, possibly wait or grab refreshments, etc. before re-entering the controlled area, e.g. for the travelators up to the Platform 13 & 14 satellite lounge waiting area.
It certainly was, at least at less busy times. A central 'footbridge', 'A' platforms off one side and 'B' platforms off the other. I've always said that what was needed was the same thing only bigger and wider (plus a direct entrance off Stephenson Street for the tram stop). As I mentioned upthread, I believe the problem lies with the new, built before anything else, 'B' end, which in practice is 'B+' or 'Very B'. If you're doing an 'A'-to-'A' interchange then it's a long walk if you want to avoid 'going out and back in again' (which itself can involve a lengthy, indirect path). It has also had the effect of shifting the station amenities (tickets, information, etc.) westwards so that they are now further from both the Bullring and the Stephenson Street ramp.
I'm fortunate in that I don't need to use New Street for interchange (unless I'm doing something pointless on a West Midlands Day Ranger), but nevertheless I've still been confused because of the escalators all facing in the same direction. I can recall at least one occasion where I've alighted from a train, blindly gone up the nearest escalator and found myself where I didn't expect to be!
But one thing's for certain, we're stuck with it for the next 40-50 years until it's due for redevelopment again. Our younger members can look forward to seeing this happen; I'm looking forward to it myself but I'll be very, very old...
Yes, I agree with that. A central footbridge, but much bigger, with the A platforms on one side and the B platforms on the other, as per before rebuild wouldve been much better.
There is no point in arguing over the semantics of 'lounge', 'waiting room', 'circulating area' or whatever. The basic point is that it is best for everyone for passengers to remain off the platforms until fairly close to the time that their train is due - possible platform changes, poor environment at platform level, un-neccesarily obstructing movement of passengers to/from earlier services, minimising distraction of dispatch staff, difficulties with providing information, etc.
So your solution is to have an additional 'barrier level', presumably with duplicate facilities 'inside the line', between the circulating space and the platforms? That would put the circulating space at Grand Central level so everyone accessing the station other than via the New Street/Stephenson Street 'Ramp' would have to go up an additional level and then down in two stages.
Plenty of other main stations effectively have 'two barrier' interchange. For example at Edinburgh Waverley you are very likely to arrive in one 'area', exit and then go and wait in or around the booking hall before heading to another 'area' for a subsequent train. At Manchester Piccadilly, if you arrive at (say) Platform 3 from the Hope Valley, with luggage, buggy or other impediment to easy movement you certainly won't struggle up the stairs to the bridge. You will exit through the barriers, possibly wait or grab refreshments, etc. before re-entering the controlled area, e.g. for the travelators up to the Platform 13 & 14 satellite lounge waiting area.
The deliberate surfacing of passengers into the unpaid side was part of the design of the remodel, which relied heavily on premium retail space (just about everything is on the unpaid side, as it was designed as a shopping mall!). It’s nothing to do with anything else.
There isn’t any other reason why you can’t have had, for example, more concessions on the paid side, and a single main barrier line as per the old station. And no good reason why most passengers have to surface and traverse two barrier lines to go back downstairs again.
Splitting things into lounges (the name IS important to ordinary passengers who rely on signage to get about!) is confusing even if on a map it looks perfectly sensible. Many ordinary travellers think the station is a 3D labyrinth. The platforms are unavoidably underground and dark, so it’s difficult to orient yourself if you’re unfamiliar with the station. It’s not like Waverley where everything is on a single plane. There are no fewer than eight gate lines.
People dislike New Street for a reason - the criticism is repeated time and again by non-anoraks (I have heard it dozens of times first hand working for two TOCs that served it!) and it doesn’t need to be so labyrinthine.
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Yes, I agree with that. A central footbridge, but much bigger, with the A platforms on one side and the B platforms on the other, as per before rebuild wouldve been much better.
The “problem” with this was too much retail was on the paid side and hence had lower football and rental value. This was the thing that was fixed with the remodel. That’s why the station is how it is.
I just don't have a problem with it. I usually change via the gates, and have to get the attendant to let me through as my pass doesn't work on their gates. I allow for the time, and think they have done the best they can with a very challenging site. It's never going to be great at platform level, but it's a busy site that's too small downstairs, so I think they've done the best they can. I suppose I'm more of a "don't sweat the small stuff" kinda person, and a few extra minutes on my interchange isn't a problem, if I'm late I'll read a book.
People dislike New Street for a reason - the criticism is repeated time and again by non-anoraks (I have heard it dozens of times first hand working for two TOCs that served it!) and it doesn’t need to be so labyrinthine.
The deliberate surfacing of passengers into the unpaid side was part of the design of the remodel, which relied heavily on premium retail space (just about everything is on the unpaid side, as it was designed as a shopping mall!). It’s nothing to do with anything else.
There isn’t any other reason why you can’t have had, for example, more concessions on the paid side, and a single main barrier line as per the old station. And no good reason why most passengers have to surface and traverse two barrier lines to go back downstairs again.
Splitting things into lounges (the name IS important to ordinary passengers who rely on signage to get about!) is confusing even if on a map it looks perfectly sensible. Many ordinary travellers think the station is a 3D labyrinth. The platforms are unavoidably underground and dark, so it’s difficult to orient yourself if you’re unfamiliar with the station. It’s not like Waverley where everything is on a single plane. There are no fewer than eight gate lines.
People dislike New Street for a reason - the criticism is repeated time and again by non-anoraks (I have heard it dozens of times first hand working for two TOCs that served it!) and it doesn’t need to be so labyrinthine.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The “problem” with this was too much retail was on the paid side and hence had lower football and rental value. This was the thing that was fixed with the remodel. That’s why the station is how it is.
I cant remember that much retail being on the paid side before rebuilding. There was the Bridge Bar, which always seemed to be well patronised, a WHSmith bookstall, and AMT kiosk, and a food outlet.
Not filling the space with retail outlets might not be a good business decision but would make it a much more pleasant and navigable experience. Far less visual clutter and fewer people milling and bimbling around erratically. Would also increase sightlines and people might be able to see where they need to go.
In my opinion stations should be for travelling to and from. They can't be both a good place to travel from and a halfway decent shopping centre. If you want shops build a proper shopping centre, don't try and shoehorn one into a station because no one goes to a station to go shopping, especially not in the middle of a city.
Not filling the space with retail outlets might not be a good business decision but would make it a much more pleasant and navigable experience. Far less visual clutter and fewer people milling and bimbling around erratically. Would also increase sightlines and people might be able to see where they need to go.
In my opinion stations should be for travelling to and from. They can't be both a good place to travel from and a halfway decent shopping centre. If you want shops build a proper shopping centre, don't try and shoehorn one into a station because no one goes to a station to go shopping, especially not in the middle of a city.
The rebuilt St Pancras station has plenty of shops and bars on both levels, and you have to go through two sets of barriers if, for example, you arrive on a South Eastern service and need to change to Thameslink or East Midlands Trains.
Not filling the space with retail outlets might not be a good business decision but would make it a much more pleasant and navigable experience. Far less visual clutter and fewer people milling and bimbling around erratically. Would also increase sightlines and people might be able to see where they need to go.
In my opinion stations should be for travelling to and from. They can't be both a good place to travel from and a halfway decent shopping centre. If you want shops build a proper shopping centre, don't try and shoehorn one into a station because no one goes to a station to go shopping, especially not in the middle of a city.
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Will he be in the green, blue or ‘secret’ red lounge (that I wish they would just call zones)
