SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that the topic of this thread is SouthEastern fleet replacement.

thanks

 

[Energy]

The DfT will go with what is the best business case, they won't care if it's brand new, newer or the same old stuff. Phrases like "to address the escalating costs of Southeastern's ageing fleet" in the opportunities suggest the do nothing is rather expensive.

Indeed, the tenders SE have put out are open to both existing and new stock. New stock on a long contract can be cheaper than the existing Networkers as the parts are getting more difficult to get.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

I read back through this thread, and a number of people were mentioning that the most likely option for new stock would be Siemens Desiro Cities. Why would they be chosen, given those production lines have been shut down? Surely a restart would cost a significant amount, not to mention the added manufacturing time it would add to start said production lines?

 

[Mikey C]

So, that would include sticking with 30+ year old non-refurbished networkers, and no refurb in sight? For the few times I've used them, it's fair to say that the interiors are tired (at best), with an abhorrent 3+2 layout, even if the ride quality is (surprisingly) very good. Seems very counterintuitive to want to entice people back onto the railways post-covid, whilst also providing a horrible experience. Wouldn't be the first dumb decision the DfT (and subsequently the govt.) has made...

The inner London routes don't need flashy new trains to tempt people onto the trains. If people need to get into central London, they take the train as there are no realistic alternatives.

 

[ComUtoR]

How so?

Can wise, they are almost identical.

 

[RobShipway]

I would have thought that the 377s and 465/9s would get replaced with units similar to class 701 units from Alstom or CAF Civity units possibly?

 

[brad465]

Indeed, the tenders SE have put out are open to both existing and new stock. New stock on a long contract can be cheaper than the existing Networkers as the parts are getting more difficult to get.

Except it's hard to see where SE can get an existing fleet from to replace their current fleet (apart from the remaining 12x 707s): the only other third rail compatible stock is needed by the other operators, and/or is also in the state of being withdrawn from service due to old age, wear and tear.

 

[Energy]

Except it's hard to see where SE can get an existing fleet from to replace their current fleet (apart from the remaining 12x 707s): the only other third rail compatible stock is needed by the other operators, and/or is also in the state of being withdrawn from service due to old age, wear and tear.

Indeed, there isn't enough for full fleet replacement but the tenders are open to used stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except it's hard to see where SE can get an existing fleet from to replace their current fleet (apart from the remaining 12x 707s): the only other third rail compatible stock is needed by the other operators, and/or is also in the state of being withdrawn from service due to old age, wear and tear.

How easy is adding third rail kit to 350/2s? They don't have shoebeams unlike /1s but I guess most of the underlying wiring must exist?

 

[Mikey C]

Except it's hard to see where SE can get an existing fleet from to replace their current fleet (apart from the remaining 12x 707s): the only other third rail compatible stock is needed by the other operators, and/or is also in the state of being withdrawn from service due to old age, wear and tear.

379s could displace 387s from another operator to be sent to Southeastern for example, removing 465/9s from "mainline" operations.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

How easy is adding third rail kit to 350/2s? They don't have shoebeams unlike /1s but I guess most of the underlying wiring must exist?

My guess is they are still needed for LNW

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2023 ==

379s could displace 387s from another operator to be sent to Southeastern for example, removing 465/9s from "mainline" operations.

Such a shame that such good trains (easily with 30+ years of operation left on them) were withdrawn. GA should have kept them for StanEx, run them in 8 and 12 car formations, and give all 745/1 to the Great Eastern side (where they are frequently used to fill gaps). Another discussion for another thread really...

While they have been tested, they aren't cleared for 177Km/h operation, so that would ultimately take time. There are only 30 of them, so the impact would be limited.

 

[ScotGG]

The inner London routes don't need flashy new trains to tempt people onto the trains. If people need to get into central London, they take the train as there are no realistic alternatives.

There's plenty of local journeys made that don't involve heading to central London and scope for more if it didn't feel so tired, given:

Trains are generally dirty and unloved, stations aren't staffed, services often infrequent. Basically if it was more like LO or the Tube (albeit frequencies will never reach those levels) it can appeal. It really doesn't now in many cases. Sitting in traffic is preferable

 

[Jammy Dodger]

There's plenty of local journeys made that don't involve heading to central London and scope for more if it didn't feel so tired

West Anglia was like this until 720's began replacing unloved 317's, despite an interior refresh likely fixing most of their problems. Now need the same for the stations, particularly more staff (an opinion which puts me at loggerheads with DfT for sure!)

 

[WizCastro197]

My guess is they are still needed for LNWR

They are going off lease soon and to be replaced by the 730s when they enter service. For the time being, there is already a thread about using existing fleets to fulfil Southeastern’s demands

Using existing fleets to achieve SouthEastern fleet replacement

Moderator note: split from How many 377s do Southern have? Could they be the answer with Southern getting a replacement fleet I wonder. Although I feel something along the 707 lines seems most likely.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[4BEP]

Apologies, if I have understood this incorrectlly, but what do you mean by ‘the tenders not gone out yet’? Do you mean the deadline for submissions hasn’t arrived yet, because I think it did……in December.

The process still at the expressions of interest stage, we still need to get to preferred suppliers and then final tenders. Then all they have to do is build, test and deliver.

 

[JonathanH]

Then all they have to do is build, test and deliver.

...and get agreement from the traincrew that they are prepared to have the new trains as their workplace.

 

[ComUtoR]

...and get agreement from the traincrew that they are prepared to have the new trains as their workplace.

This would be done on a collective basis. I don't think that anyone can refuse to drive a specific train and the union involvement is there to ensure standards are met and correct process is followed.

The Driver generally just get told that there is a new unit and get given a date for training.

 

[JonathanH]

This would be done on a collective basis. I don't think that anyone can refuse to drive a specific train and the union involvement is there to ensure standards are met and correct process is followed.

Yes, of course on a collective basis, and plainly it is about standards, but the union and its traincrew will want something suitable for the next 35 years.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, of course on a collective basis, and plainly it is about standards, but the union and its traincrew will want something suitable for the next 35 years.

The traincrew don't get much choice.

Whatever stock gets decided it will be far up the chain. At the ground level it's often the case where something suitable hasn't been provided and by the time we get our hands on it, it can't be changed.

There may be a part of the process where a Driver is involved in the project but again, that's generally after the stock has been designed and specced.

 

[Invincible]

The traincrew don't get much choice.

Whatever stock gets decided it will be far up the chain. At the ground level it's often the case where something suitable hasn't been provided and by the time we get our hands on it, it can't be changed.

There may be a part of the process where a Driver is involved in the project but again, that's generally after the stock has been designed and specced.

After what happened with the 769s at Gwr and the 701s at SWR, it would be good for Southeastern to get staff representatives and Unions involved with stock selection and testing as early as possible.

 

[4BEP]

Has anyone heard whether any Expressions of Interest were received and if so from whom?

 

[JonathanH]

I dont see expressions of interest as being something that would enter the public domain. You could try a freedom of information request but I suspect that may be refused on the grounds of commerciality.

 

[Mollman]

Has anyone heard whether any Expressions of Interest were received and if so from whom?

We might not find out unless one of the manufacturers puts out a press release or it is mentioned at a conference. One the outcome of the tender is known then we might find out who bid depending on how the award / cancellation is announced.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has anyone heard whether any Expressions of Interest were received and if so from whom?

Im sure they’ve had lots of expressions of interest. No idea who, but the usual suspects I guess!

 

[4BEP]

Networkers have had toilets since they were built. It isn't clear what happens to the 376s and 707s.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Would be the most SE thing to go for CAF

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Would be the most SE thing to go for CAF

What on earth does this obscure sentence mean?

 

[D365]

What on earth does this obscure sentence mean?

It would be the most "Southeastern" thing to go for CAF. (I'll leave the latter backronym to your interpretation )

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It would be the most "Southeastern" thing to go for CAF.

What on earth is meant by that?

 

[D365]

What on earth is meant by that?

CAF the rolling stock manufacturer - has a reputation among some...