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Shortage of buses to replace trains

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kristiang85

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SWR have had shortages this weekend too apparently, though luckily I've not needed the trains. And quite a lot of my stagecoach buses in the basingstoke area have been cancelled over the last few months it seems due to "driver shortage".
 
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Edsmith

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I travelled on Thameslink on the Luton route. Recognised some top agency rail replacement drivers driving on Metroline's behalf, the type who ensure their blinds are displayed correctly, that destination boards are on display, drive the right route and await departure time without needing to be supervised.

Some of the buses had been called in on an emergency basis, enabling drivers to be called in from far and wide to cover duties.

Looks like the rail replacement service was wound down from 7pm.

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Online CPC day courses cost £40-£75 and you only have to do 5 days of training every 5 years. My operation runs a rewards scheme where every shift worked accrues points which drivers can use to redeem for a paid day attending a CPC course - or redeem for cash if they've had training elsewhere. I've worked for outfits who refuse to pay for CPC training despite a driver probably earning enough for the company in one day to cover the cost of a day course. And others who will cover the cost of the course but expect the driver to attend for 7 hours without being paid. I don't think this is the best way to promote loyalty hence why I do it the way I do.
A lot of rail replacement bus drivers are employed on a casual basis which suits both parties but obviously neither party is going to pay for the CPC.

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Is there some reason train drivers can't drive buses like?
Interesting idea

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There is also a complete mismatch in timing.
Many of the engineering works that require full line closures are planned months (even year of two) in advance, but seems the buses are only contracted a few weeks in advance, and the drivers sometimes only few days in advance.

I know a bus driver that has done rail replacement work, and he says tends to be asked few days in advance, not months ahead, which proves there is a structural logjam in the booking of staff in timely way.


It also doesn't help when rail replacement buses are doing 50 mile round trips, because stupidly long section is closed, even though all the work is on less than a mile of track. If double bus journey time need double the buses and drivers (often more because breaks become harder to schedule).
There needs to be some serious discussion about why trains cannot reverse nearer the rail works when struggling to get enough buses. Or running a single train shuttle to a nearer station (even if main service reverses elsewhere) to minimise the non rail part.

Before anyone says people cannot swap trains, I had to do that yesterday when XC decided they would do set swap on very crowded 1S45 Plymouth-Aberdeen at Derby. So happens when it suits operating Dept.
May have been a late call to replace somebody else who's gone sick? Drivers I know are usually notified well in advance and it's generally seen as an easy job but there just aren't enough drivers, so many have left the industry and there aren't many drivers coming through to replace them.
 
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Snow1964

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A lot of rail replacement bus drivers are employed on a casual basis which suits both parties but obviously neither party is going to pay for the CPC.
But the railway could make it a condition of the RRB contract that the awarded Operator is liable for CPC of any driver it chooses to use

At the moment seems to be done on Operator awarded the job, even if they don't have a plan on how to fully staff it basis.
 

DelW

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SWR have had shortages this weekend too apparently, though luckily I've not needed the trains. And quite a lot of my stagecoach buses in the basingstoke area have been cancelled over the last few months it seems due to "driver shortage".
Yesterday afternoon about half of the RRBs calling at intermediate stations on the Guildford to Petersfield block were showing as cancelled. However, the couple I actually saw running looked almost empty. (There's usually also a direct service via the A3 with no intermediate calls, hopefully that was running and was more reliable).
 

Edsmith

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But the railway could make it a condition of the RRB contract that the awarded Operator is liable for CPC of any driver it chooses to use

At the moment seems to be done on Operator awarded the job, even if they don't have a plan on how to fully staff it basis.
I can't really see how that would work in practice, there would be nothing to stop a driver then going to work for someone else.

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Yesterday afternoon about half of the RRBs calling at intermediate stations on the Guildford to Petersfield block were showing as cancelled. However, the couple I actually saw running looked almost empty. (There's usually also a direct service via the A3 with no intermediate calls, hopefully that was running and was more reliable).
I suspect many people know how unreliable RRB's have become and made other arrangements.
 

whoosh

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Is there some reason train drivers can't drive buses like?

Mainly:

•I wouldn't get out bed for bus driver's wages.
•Bus (or train) companies won't want to pay me train driver's wages for driving a bus.

Also...
I'm not paying to get a PCV license, and I don't think my railway employer wants to pay me train drivers wages to go off and learn. Especially when there's trains that need driving!
 
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DJ_K666

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As someone who used to drive the RR buses on that particular line if there aren't enough buses to cover the services that would be concerning. Usually the local coach companies would be brought in, so you'd Usually have Metrobus*, Southern Transit, Renown Coaches, Big Lemon, Southdown PSV* (now part of Brighton and Hove/Spirit of Sussex) Stagecoach, Various London bus companies, Lucketts, Marchwood Motorways and various others it makes me wonder if the shortage is organisational rather than an shortage of actual vehicles but since RR buses now have accessibility regulations to consider they can't just haul old wrecks out of a barn any more (seriously, I've seen preserved vehicles doing it) they have to be less than 8 years old or if they are older they have to be paired up with one that's compliant.
Oddly enough one I haven't seen is Compass Travel but that doesn't mean they don't do it.

*Both of these are very local to Three Bridges station and Gatwick Airport (A.K.A Pratwick Scareport) so theyreca no- brained. Brighton and Hove's Conway Street and Lewes Road depots are both literally 10 minutes from the back of Brighton Station, which gets surprisingly busy.

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Is there some reason train drivers can't drive buses like?
Southern Transit have one who can. He's ex Southern and Brighton &Hove buses before that but drives for GB Railfreight these days. Oddly enough there are a few train drivers who used to drive buses.

Would a train driver holding a PSV keep their CPC qualification up to date? I'm guessing there's an equivalent on the railways and its probably more involved.
 
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43066

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Would a train driver holding a PSV keep their CPC qualification up to date? I'm guessing there's an equivalent on the railways and its probably more involved.

Only if they were willing to pay for it themselves. There will be the odd enthusiast who does, (I can think of a few in this category, including one who owns a couple of old buses!) but neither uses it for driving commercial bus driving. TOCs would likely take a dim view of a driver moonlighting as a bus driver (or any other job) for fatigue reasons, not to say it wouldn’t be possible to work around it for those who were really keen; (@notadriver ) may be able to give more insight.

If a train driver wanted to earn extra money they’d also be financially far better off doing an overtime shift at the day job, rather than driving rail replacement buses.


They wouldn't know what the huge round wheel in front of them was for! ;)

That’s the handbrake, right?
 
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Krokodil

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What's the alternative?
Not for all lines but on many routes we used to divert around engineering blocks. Lancaster closed? Go via the S&C. Winsford shut? Go via Chester (including a red pen move around the triangle to keep the set facing the right way). Carstairs shut? Go via the G&SW. You still need buses for the passenger who need Lancaster but all of the through passengers could stay in their seats.

Not any more, the ability to drag electric trains over unwired diversions has been lost, and diversionary routes are seen as an extravagance.
 

DJ_K666

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Only if they were willing to pay for it themselves. There will be the odd enthusiast who does, (I can think of a few in this category, including one who owns a couple of old buses!) but neither uses it for driving commercial bus driving. TOCs would likely take a dim view of a driver moonlighting as a bus driver (or any other job) for fatigue reasons, not to say it wouldn’t be possible to work around it for those who were really keen; (@notadriver ) may be able to give more insight.

If a train driver wanted to earn extra money they’d also be financially far better off doing an overtime shift at the day job, rather than driving rail replacement buses.




That’s the handbrake, right?
Absolutely, the fatigue thing is an issue to all of us, bus or railway industries , (remember Coventry?)To be fair my friend does have 3 buses of his own plus he's involved with the 1753 4 CIG (or 5 CIG?) project with the guy behind Southern Transit. Bus driving is a hobby to him. The CPC costs about £250 for a refresher course so I'm sure he can sort that. Which reminds me I've got 2 to do before August...
 

43066

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To be fair my friend does have 3 buses of his own plus he's involved with the 1753 4 CIG (or 5 CIG?) project with the guy behind Southern Transit. Bus driving is a hobby to him.

There’s definitely a big overlap between an interest in the railway, and an interest in buses (closely followed by aviation!).
 

DJ_K666

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There’s definitely a big overlap between an interest in the railway, and an interest in buses (closely followed by aviation!).
Oh definitely. I tend to take in interest in buses I've been involved with. Hence I have a commercially made model of the bus I passed my test in.
You've got to, haven't you....

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Mainly:

•I wouldn't get out bed for bus driver's wages.
•Bus (or train) companies won't want to pay me train driver's wages for driving a bus.

Also...
I'm not paying to get a PCV license, and I don't think my railway employer wants to pay me train drivers wages to go off and learn. Especially when there's trains that need driving!
I think you'll find most of the train drivers who hold PSV licenses had them before they went over to the railway industry. A fair few went to Southern and became guards or whatever.
 
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whoosh

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Oh definitely. I tend to take in interest in buses I've been involved with. Hence I have a commercially made model of the bus I passed my test in.
You've got to, haven't you....

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I think you'll find most of the train drivers who hold PSV licenses had them before they went over to the railway industry. A fair few went to Southern and became guards or whatever.
Yes, a fair few Train Drivers at my TOC used to drive buses too.
 

IndianPacific

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Another challenge is the introduction of PSVAR (accessibility) regulations, whjich already cover service companies (like Megabus and National Express) but I don't think apply to home to school or private hire / general tour yet (which the longer distance rail replacement fleet generally comes from). I think Rail Replacement is supposed to be 100% accessible but they're appealing for it to be delayed as the new coaches are too expensive (and recently too hard to even get), especially for smaller operators. They do provide accessible 'city' buses for shorter routes and arrange taxis / an alternative for longer distance routes but it's not the turn up & go the rules push for.

I'd reckon in some areas there would be potential for working with the competing transport modes. E.g. offer ticket acceptance on local buses (as is done during disruption), or create an online form that would let you swap your ticket to a National Express ticket & get half your money back (if there's a suitable route), it's probably easier for NE to put on a couple of extra coaches on their existing route than it is to resource an entire rail replacement service.

One thing most people may not realise is most of the big bus groups had rail replacement crews. It was actually planned. I know Arriva at Luton, Stagecoach at Basingstoke had dedicated staff for rail replacement. As mentioned with the driver shortage it's not worth the hassle. The added paper work is so much hassle.

I'd assume for route learning reasons, given double decker buses frequent attraction towards railway bridges.
 

43066

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Hence I have a commercially made model of the bus I passed my test in.
You've got to, haven't you....

Absolutely - whatever floats your boat!

I’m not in to modelling especially, but I’d like to amass an 00 gauge collection of every unit/loco type I’ve driven. I only have one so far, and they’re rather expensive, so it will take a while!
 

DJ_K666

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Absolutely - whatever floats your boat!

I’m not in to modelling especially, but I’d like to amass an 00 gauge collection of every unit/loco type I’ve driven. I only have one so far, and they’re rather expensive, so it will take a while!
Heh especially the 400s. I'm hoping someone does a CIG at some point.
 

Sapphire Blue

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Mainly:

•I wouldn't get out bed for bus driver's wages.
•Bus (or train) companies won't want to pay me train driver's wages for driving a bus.

Also...
I'm not paying to get a PCV license, and I don't think my railway employer wants to pay me train drivers wages to go off and learn. Especially when there's trains that need driving!
And.
"What does steering mean?
 

TUC

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What's the alternative? Stop all engineering works? Works are planned months if not years in advance, whilst unavailability of rail replacement transport is normally only communicated weeks in advance. One issue is the money that TOCs have been allowed to pay for this which is much more inflexible with the DfT having a tighter reign on things.

This has been going on for near 3 years now across the country.
If works are planned months in advance, surely it at that point months earlier when the rail replacement buses should be contracted, rather than nearer the date? That would give greater ability for bus companies to plan for abailability.
 

Goldfish62

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There’s definitely a big overlap between an interest in the railway, and an interest in buses (closely followed by aviation!).
Most definitely in my case, and plenty of my friends (all of us actually work in rail or buses).
 

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RJ

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A lot of rail replacement bus drivers are employed on a casual basis which suits both parties but obviously neither party is going to pay for the CPC.

Somebody has to pay for it! If the company plays hardball and the driver doesn't want to be out of work then the driver ends up paying. I've paid for 7 days over the last 11 years. I got a few days out of induction and one operator provided the course but attendance wasn't paid.
 

Edsmith

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Somebody has to pay for it! If the company plays hardball and the driver doesn't want to be out of work then the driver ends up paying. I've paid for 7 days over the last 11 years. I got a few days out of induction and one operator provided the course but attendance wasn't paid.
Fair play to you but a lot of drivers decide they're not paying it and go and get a job elsewhere, supermarket home delivery etc.
 

AndrewE

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I was shocked to see
Avoid travel on rail replacement bus services in this area. Buses will be extremely limited.
If you must travel, expect long queues for the rail replacement services that do run. Your journey will take significantly longer than usual.
Only a very limited Thameslink and Great Northern rail replacement bus service will run between: London, St Albans, Luton and Bedford
  • Hitchin and Luton / Bedford
  • Potters Bar, St Albans and Harpenden
Some bus routes will start later and finish earlier than the usual train services. At most, two buses per hour will operate on each route, where they are running at all.
Engineering work also means that services between Stevenage and London via Hertford North won't start running until approximately 10:00. There are no buses running on this route prior to 10:00, so you will need to travel later, or use another route, if possible - please see below.
Unbelievable.

Is rail a part of our capital city's public transport system or not? Does effective public transport matter to the functioning of our economy? (Especially for poorly-paid hospital and other public sector workers...)

Might it be part of the solution to reducing our carbon emissions?

I'm not saying rail maintenance shouldn't happen, just that the whole transport infrastructure needs restructuring. Maybe some sort of a "national bus company" which employs drivers (not gig economy exploitation) and can provide enough drivers and vehicles for another part of our transport network's needs as part of their own long-term "business plan."

Don't bother to reply, just email your MP if you answered "yes" to any of the above!
 
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43066

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Is rail a part of our capital city's public transport system or not? Does effective public transport matter to the functioning of our economy? (Especially for poorly-paid hospital and other public sector workers...)

The government don’t seem to think so!

I'm not saying rail maintenance shouldn't happen, just that the whole transport infrastructure needs restructuring. Maybe some sort of a "national bus company" which employs drivers (not gig economy exploitation) and can provide enough drivers and vehicles for another part of our transport network's needs as part of their own long-term "business plan."

Sadly there’s no way that will happen. As and when the current bus driver shortage reaches an end (it’s by no means clear when that will happen!) things will likely go back to how they were previously.

In the meantime, we are where we are unfortunately, so it’s sensible of TOCs to encourage people not to travel on RRBs where there is likely to be significant overcrowding. Many will most likely make other arrangements - personally I avoid using them at all costs!
 

RJ

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But the railway could make it a condition of the RRB contract that the awarded Operator is liable for CPC of any driver it chooses to use

At the moment seems to be done on Operator awarded the job, even if they don't have a plan on how to fully staff it basis.

In a lot of cases rail replacement is given out on an ad-hoc basis. It’s necessary to do it this way because the requirements for buses vary greatly from week to week. When people aren’t guaranteed work on a routine basis, they can’t sustainably reserve their weekends just in case they are needed.

The driver shortage problem might go away if contracts were created where the operators committed to provide a fixed number of buses each weekend. If it’s a quiet weekend for closures the buses could be on standby in strategic places. The consistent provision of work will increase the pool of quality, trained drivers. Maybe once upon a time this would be viewed as an unnecessary expense, but this shortage of resource is becoming a recurring theme.
 

philthetube

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There is a particular shortage of part time drivers because the job is no longer worth doing if you've got to pay around £500 for the driver CPC and there are plenty of part time jobs available for home delivery drivers.
CPC is available on line for £200 for 5 days training, however if you take into account days off work it works out at over 500, unless you do it on rest days.
If no replacement buses can be sourced then yes, engineering works should, and in fact must be postponed. It is not acceptable to have no alternative transport whatsoever and frankly, why should a fare paying passenger care what problems cancelling works cause to Network Rail?
If the position is that they will never be available then what?
 
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