May 2023 changes

[splashoutradio]

Does anyone have the link to Avanti’s timetable for May onwards?

Don't know if these will be of any use, but here's tables for the WCML, compiled on Sunday (southern local services omitted.)

 

[nw1]

Brockenhurst has 1 mil annual passengers. That sufficiently justifies 4tph

Particularly as no new services are needed to provide it. All that's needed is to stick the stop back into the XC services at just about no cost!

 

[WibbleWobble]

Brockenhurst has 1 mil annual passengers. That sufficiently justifies 4tph

Partly helped by the whopping great big college that's a 10 minute walk from the station!

 

[Bikeman78]

There has probably been some analysis which shows that the majority of users were simply travelling to Southampton, Winchester or Bournemouth - all of which get a better SWR service.

So overcrowding XC services with local passengers isn't a good thing. Add in the XC service is coming from Manchester and Birmingham - if it's running late when it hits Basingstoke, it's then got to be pathed around the SWR services - losing the Brockenhurst stop potentially makes that easier as it can be pathed in front of an SWR stopper from Southampton without having to delay it.

If it was getting overcrowded, then clearly the stop was popular. I can't comment either way. I've never used a Voyager down that way. The trains have the same paths now as they did when they stopped at Brockenhurst.

Again I see what you're saying but my principal objection is the removal of a service which had been provided for around 30 years with little tangible benefit to removing it and which was seen as useful by passengers - maybe not vast quantities of passengers but "enough" to make the stop (which has little or no cost and in fact is likely to generate more income than it costs, at a guess) worthwhile. But maybe best just to agree to disagree on this.

Covid was the original excuse. I'm not convinced that it stacked up even then.

 

[Kite159]

.

Covid was the original excuse. I'm not convinced that it stacked up even then.

Especially as they didn't stop calling at the West Midland Stations which generate far more local traffic (Coventry to New Street) than Brockenhurst - Southampton. If they were bothered about trying to limit overcrowding by local passengers they would have ditched the Wolverhampton call, maybe even have Coventry as pick-up only heading south, set-down heading north.

 

[Warrior2852]

The WelwynOaks services are getting more popular, but they do get very busy by New Barnet going into London.

Are the Sevenoaks services likely to ever be extended beyond Blackfriars in the off-peak too? Or are they likely to just stay as is and give the Blackfriars bays something to do all day.

 

[jon0844]

Are the Sevenoaks services likely to ever be extended beyond Blackfriars in the off-peak too? Or are they likely to just stay as is and give the Blackfriars bays something to do all day.

No idea. I assume there's the capacity to do it off-peak (must be if they are running them peak, which also has 4tph WGC to MOG to contend with) so it's just a case of stock utilisation, rostering etc. With the 2C/2R not going through the core, aren't those paths available all day?

It would certainly lead to a very nice turn up and go service to London, albeit with trains alternating between KGX and STP.

As a lot of people are using the train from WGC to places like Elephant and Castle or Denmark Hill, it certainly seems like it would be useful to run the trains throughout the day (even if they didn't run late into the evening) as people are working flexible hours these days, so not always using peak trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks from the timetable data like WMT may be partly or wholly abolishing First Class from May. Can anyone confirm either way?

 

[bramling]

Are the Sevenoaks services likely to ever be extended beyond Blackfriars in the off-peak too? Or are they likely to just stay as is and give the Blackfriars bays something to do all day.

It was never planned, presumably as 4tph between St Pancras and Welwyn was deemed excessive.

However now that Cambridge-Maidstone hasn’t happened, who knows what might happen in the future. However with the KX to Cambridge service being re-branded as Great Northern from May, this does provide a clue as to the direction things seem to be taking.

 

[jon0844]

Ultimately, while it would be great for more ECML stations to get access to the core (as originally promised), in this current climate I can't see the DfT wanting to spend the money though.

 

[PGAT]

The 0822 from Sevenoaks will be cut back to Finsbury Park from May. Looks like we’re straying further away from a full off-peak service

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Ultimately, while it would be great for more ECML stations to get access to the core (as originally promised), in this current climate I can't see the DfT wanting to spend the money though.

Went past Three Bridges mid morning yesterday counted 13 trains stabled outside let alone what was in the sheds so they aren't short of units to do more with.

 

[class717]

Went past Three Bridges mid morning yesterday counted 13 trains stabled outside let alone what was in the sheds so they aren't short of units to do more with.

Just because they’re there, doesn’t mean they’re fit for service.

 

[bramling]

The 0822 from Sevenoaks will be cut back to Finsbury Park from May. Looks like we’re straying further away from a full off-peak service

If I’m not misremembering, that service wasn’t part of the original May 18 spec. I think the northbound service to Welwyn only appeared because a change was made so the unit spent the midday period at Welwyn carriage sidings rather than Hornsey, so the opportunity was taken to run an extra journey in service rather than as an ECS. I wouldn’t imagine it has ever loaded particularly well.

 

[Bikeman78]

Just because they’re there, doesn’t mean they’re fit for service.

13 out of service means only 88% availability. Not great for a modern fleet. Hornsey's older mixed mainline fleet managed 92% on weekdays. The 313s were diagrammed for 93% availability.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

13 out of service means only 88% availability. Not great for a modern fleet. Hornsey's older mixed mainline fleet managed 92% on weekdays. The 313s were diagrammed for 93% availability.

Indeed plus add a few more that would no doubt have been at Hornsey.

 

[jon0844]

Went past Three Bridges mid morning yesterday counted 13 trains stabled outside let alone what was in the sheds so they aren't short of units to do more with.

I believe almost 20 units are grounded at the moment, not that they need all of them to provide the current service.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I believe almost 20 units are grounded at the moment, not that they need all of them to provide the current service.

Just as well thats pretty lousy performance from such a youthful fleet which costs GTR 183m/annum man to lease.

 

[Man_with_beard]

Seems Avanti have again decided not to start running the 2215 Manchester to Euston aswell as other later departures from Liverpool and Birmingham. Are we going to be stuck forever with the last train from Manchester to London being 21:15?. Its been stuck at 21:15 for over 20 years. And no re-introduce of the covid withdrawn 2300 Euston to Manchester either. Madness.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Seems Avanti have again decided not to start running the 2215 Manchester to Euston aswell as other later departures from Liverpool and Birmingham. Are we going to be stuck forever with the last train from Manchester to London being 21:15?. Its been stuck at 21:15 for over 20 years. And no re-introduce of the covid withdrawn 2300 Euston to Manchester either. Madness.

It’s not Avanti’s decision, they run the train service the DfT dictates them to and that doesn’t include those late night trains. It’s your MP you need to lobby.

 

[class717]

I believe almost 20 units are grounded at the moment, not that they need all of them to provide the current service.

I believe 92 are currently required for weekday service.

 

[infobleep]

Apologise if this has already been covered. I noticed this morning that Guildford to Gatwick Airport services are 5 minutes slower on Sunday's compared to Monday to Saturday. This can't anything new. They could stop at additional stations in that time.

The issue is that the train follows an all stations stopping service from Redhill to Gatwick Airport, whilst not stopping at any stations itself. Shame it can't be pathed into the fast line to overtake it.

I thought why doesn't the train depart Reading 10 minutes earlier so it can run ahead of the stopping service. I couldn't see any conflicting moves.

However I see that from May the times of the stopping train From Redhill are changing, with it departing 4 minutes earlier and thus the Great Western Railway service will be 45 minutes as it is during the week.

Today I got the 12 pm service and it arrived into Redhill 3 minutes early at 12:31. For the WTT it's due in at 12:32 but PTT is 12:34. I would have had time to board the stopping service. I wasn't quick enough to consider this.

As it is we will be in to Gatwick Airport 1 minute late.

 

[Minstral25]

Apologise if this has already been covered. I noticed this morning that Guildford to Gatwick Airport services are 5 minutes slower on Sunday's compared to Monday to Saturday. This can't anything new. They could stop at additional stations in that time.

The issue is that the train follows an all stations stopping service from Redhill to Gatwick Airport, whilst not stopping at any stations itself. Shame it can't be pathed into the fast line to overtake it.

I thought why doesn't the train depart Reading 10 minutes earlier so it can run ahead of the stopping service. I couldn't see any conflicting moves.

However I see that from May the times of the stopping train From Redhill are changing, with it departing 4 minutes earlier and thus the Great Western Railway service will be 45 minutes as it is during the week.

Today I got the 12 pm service and it arrived into Redhill 3 minutes early at 12:31. For the WTT it's due in at 12:32 but PTT is 12:34. I would have had time to board the stopping service. I wasn't quick enough to consider this.

As it is we will be in to Gatwick Airport 1 minute late.

They regularly change times with plenty of allowances on Sundays as the base timetable has to assume two line working between Gatwick and Redhill instead of normal 4 line. Different engineering also means different times.

From May the Base timetable on Sundays is changing. Instead of 2 Thameslink services per hour Three Bridges to Bedford and 1 Horsham to London Bridge there will be a 2 per hour service Bedford to Three Bridges/Horsham (alternate trains swap destination - only the Horsham services call at Earlswood/Salfords). Hence the Reading to Gatwick service can now go at full speed.

 

[FenMan]

Apologise if this has already been covered. I noticed this morning that Guildford to Gatwick Airport services are 5 minutes slower on Sunday's compared to Monday to Saturday. This can't anything new. They could stop at additional stations in that time.

The issue is that the train follows an all stations stopping service from Redhill to Gatwick Airport, whilst not stopping at any stations itself. Shame it can't be pathed into the fast line to overtake it.

I thought why doesn't the train depart Reading 10 minutes earlier so it can run ahead of the stopping service. I couldn't see any conflicting moves.

However I see that from May the times of the stopping train From Redhill are changing, with it departing 4 minutes earlier and thus the Great Western Railway service will be 45 minutes as it is during the week.

Today I got the 12 pm service and it arrived into Redhill 3 minutes early at 12:31. For the WTT it's due in at 12:32 but PTT is 12:34. I would have had time to board the stopping service. I wasn't quick enough to consider this.

As it is we will be in to Gatwick Airport 1 minute late.

My fingers are firmly crossed that the North Downs timetable will return to Turbo timings in December with no awkward gaps in the service, unlike in May, when stations between Guildford and Wokingham don't have any weekday departures to Reading for 70+ minutes in the AM shoulder-peak.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My fingers are firmly crossed that the North Downs timetable will return to Turbo timings in December with no awkward gaps in the service, unlike in May, when stations between Guildford and Wokingham don't have any weekday departures to Reading for 70+ minutes in the AM shoulder-peak.

doubt it the industry doesn't like to take risks with performance anymore and it helps give the operator good credibility on ppm so they earn a bonus payment from DfT

 

[The Planner]

doubt it the industry doesn't like to take risks with performance anymore and it helps give the operator good credibility on ppm so they earn a bonus payment from DfT

PPM no longer exists.

 

[Failed Unit]

I believe almost 20 units are grounded at the moment, not that they need all of them to provide the current service.

Probably one for a different thread but their lack of availability is noticeable to the causal passenger, fortunately not really in terms of cancellations. Just I have notices some 8 car trains on trains diagramed for 12 cars and 387s vice 700s. I think they are on no train - no pay contracts. But they are well below what the expensive contract specified. I am sure Roger Ford will be picking up on this soon enough (along with the IEP)

 

[Scott1]

PPM no longer exists.

Time to 3 effectively is the same thing to an outsider, with similer consequences for missing it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Probably one for a different thread but their lack of availability is noticeable to the causal passenger, fortunately not really in terms of cancellations. Just I have notices some 8 car trains on trains diagramed for 12 cars and 387s vice 700s. I think they are on no train - no pay contracts. But they are well below what the expensive contract specified. I am sure Roger Ford will be picking up on this soon enough (along with the IEP)

Weve seen nothing from the railway press on the 701 debacle so unlikely to see anything on the 700's or the IEPs especially as they were let directly by the DfT.

PPM no longer exists.

Why does ORR report on it quarterly then? Also in the NRC contracts one of the four performance metrics driving the bonus payment is operational performance (including punctuality) given the very low level of management fees the operators need to strive to deliver on the various metrics to drive up the overall earnings to keep shareholders happy.

 

[bramling]

Probably one for a different thread but their lack of availability is noticeable to the causal passenger, fortunately not really in terms of cancellations. Just I have notices some 8 car trains on trains diagramed for 12 cars and 387s vice 700s. I think they are on no train - no pay contracts. But they are well below what the expensive contract specified. I am sure Roger Ford will be picking up on this soon enough (along with the IEP)

This has been going on to a greater or lesser extent since May 18. Ever since then, except during the period where the really slimmed-down Covid timetables were running, it’s been common to experience what you have described. 700/0 on a 700/1 diagram has always been fairly common on GN (and I don’t mean where 700/0s have been *booked* as has sometimes been the case). Likewise cancellations due to train faults.

Despite my relatively low mileage on them, I’ve had more 700 failures in service than was ever the case with over two decades using 365s where they not once failed mid-journey on me. Indeed I struggle to recall a time when I suffered an outright cancellation due to a failed 365.

It doesn’t really bode well that they are suffering even with the timetables having been slimmed back compared to pre-Covid. I guess things will improve in May with 387s taking over a chunk of their work on the stopping services, though a by-product of this will likely give us more 700/0 on 700/1 diagrams.

Do I remember rightly that the erstwhile Littlehampton ex Thameslink services will be changing to Electrostars?