Conflicting information between platform and train - which one to trust?

[miklcct]

I'm on a Thameslink train. The platform announcement says the train won't call at some intermediate stations such as Elephant & Castle and Mitcham Junction today, but the train still announces the full list of calling points including these stations.

Similarly, I had encountered a case where the platform says Moorgate while the train says Circle Line via Liverpool Street. As soon as it closed the door on departure at Farringdon it was changed to Hammersmith & City Line terminating at Moorgate which caused me to run off the train at the next station.

So in general when the information on the platform and the train differs, which one should I trust?

 

[zwk500]

In general it's easier for the platform displays to be altered in Realtime by control whereas the on-train displays are driven by the headcodes and not all (are any?) are updated in real time. So I would give the platform display precedence over the on-train display, but in the event of any discrepancy I'll also use an app to try and seek '2 of 3' verification. Of course, the risk of that is either 2 of 3 are still on the old plan or you end up with 3 completely different sets of information.

 

[ComUtoR]

If there was a conflict with my stop, I'd go and ask the Driver.

Is this a 700 ? That would explain why you have conflicting information on the train. Their PIS is awful and impossible to alter

 

[TUC]

If there was a conflict with my stop, I'd go and ask the Driver.

Is this a 700 ? That would explain why you have conflicting information on the train. Their PIS is awful and impossible to alter

It is hard to imagine something so unhelpful, confusing, and potentially hazardous for passengers as this.

 

[skyhigh]

In general it's easier for the platform displays to be altered in Realtime by control whereas the on-train displays are driven by the headcodes and not all (are any?) are updated in real time.

Just as an aside, this is something TrainFX gets right. It can be altered remotely by control with no action by the crew - in disruption sometimes as crew the first clue you get is the displays change to show an earlier terminating station/intermediate stops cancelled before you get a call from control to inform you.

 

[zwk500]

Just as an aside, this is something TrainFX gets right. It can be altered remotely by control with no action by the crew - in disruption sometimes as crew the first clue you get is the displays change to show an earlier terminating station/intermediate stops cancelled before you get a call from control to inform you.

Good to hear that there are some systems that do it. It seems mad that trains the age of 700s don't have a remotely updatable PIS System given they have real-time Underground status.

 

[ComUtoR]

Just as an aside, this is something TrainFX gets right. It can be altered remotely by control with no action by the crew - in disruption sometimes as crew the first clue you get is the displays change to show an earlier terminating station/intermediate stops cancelled before you get a call from control to inform you.

My experience with TrainFX is completely different but I'm glad they have improved the system since my 319 days.

The 700 Telvic has the same ability (at least that's what I'm told) but isn't used. If it is a 700 then it's going to require the Driver to clear the PIS code from the system. Not exactly something that's going to happen on the move.

There is also a possibility that the service has been ammended but the Drover hasn't been told yet. Sadly, that happens too often.

I've had my door knocked on many times when there has been confusion. I've even had passengers tap on the window and tell me the service has been changed.

 

[Peter0124]

Whilst not the same thing, this reminds me of Glasgow Central to Lanark services.

When you are approaching the first stop (Cambuslang) it announces "Change here for services via Uddingston" even though the current train is going via Uddingston. Needs to be altered asap.

 

[43066]

If there was a conflict with my stop, I'd go and ask the Driver.

Id go with the platform announcement for the same reasons.

Difficult for passengers to “ask the driver” and not something I’d encourage anyone to try and do. Ideally a DOO driver should be making appropriate announcements, of course.

It is hard to imagine something so unhelpful, confusing, and potentially hazardous for passengers as this.

Typical RailUK Forums hyperbole.

 

[TUC]

Typical RailUK Forums hyperbole.

If your teenage child is travelling on the train alone for the first time, or are a disabled passengers travelling independently on the basis that you know the station they you plan to get off at is accessible, but find the train goes past and you are left at an unfamiliar station, then yes it is potentially hazardous.

Looking after customers, including accurate stopping information in this case, is the number one job of any business, not an add-on if the staff have time.

 

[43066]

If your teenage child is travelling on the train alone for the first time

If a teenager (or anyone else) isn’t capable of coping with disruption/a need to vary their journey they shouldn’t be travelling unsupervised.

or are a disabled passengers travelling independently on the basis that you know the station they you plan to get off at is accessible,

Many stations are not accessible and there will be no way to get them off the train if there is no prebooked assistance, or if a train is altered to run fast through a platform. In all likelihood they will need to use the emergency alarm and be carried to the next location where staff can get them off the train. That’s driver only/one man operation for you (which I could have sworn you were in favour of on other threads).

Both scenarios are inconvenient, neither is “hazardous”.

Looking after customers, including accurate stopping information in this case, is the number one job of any business, not an add-on if the staff have time.

And, just like in any other business, sometimes things go wrong.

 

[LowLevel]

Just as an aside, this is something TrainFX gets right. It can be altered remotely by control with no action by the crew - in disruption sometimes as crew the first clue you get is the displays change to show an earlier terminating station/intermediate stops cancelled before you get a call from control to inform you.

Only if you have the expensive version. The one we have quite often fails to accept skip stop commands put into it by the train crew and control have no ability to do anything with it

 

[TUC]

If a teenager (or anyone else) isn’t capable of coping with disruption/a need to vary their journey they shouldn’t be travelling unsupervised.



Many stations are not accessible and there will be no way to get them off the train if there is no prebooked assistance, or if a train is altered to run fast through a platform. In all likelihood they will need to use the emergency alarm and be carried to the next location where staff can get them off the train. That’s one man driver only operation for you (which I could have sworn you were in favour of on other threads).

Both scenarios are inconvenient, neither is “hazardous”.



And, just like in any other business, sometimes things go wrong.

Sorry, but your responses smack of 'passengers need to fit in with what operationally suits the railways' rather than 'customers are our most vital asset, and we need to encourage more peopke to be confident in using our services'.

 

[43066]

Sorry, but your responses smack of 'passengers need to fit in with what operationally suits the railways' rather than 'customers are our most vital asset, and we need to encourage more peopke to be confident in using our services'.

I’m telling it like it is. I’m not here to defend or apologise for anything - what I have described above is the operational reality. I don’t see any evidence that the way the railway currently operates puts passengers off using it. Quite the opposite, in fact!

Your responses on here suggest someone who has zero real world insight or understanding of the operational railway, and perhaps enjoys looking for reasons to moan. Nobody is forcing you to use the railway if you have such a low opinion of it!

 

[TUC]

I’m telling it like it is. I’m not here to defend or apologise for anything - what I have described above is the operational reality. I don’t see any evidence that the way the railway currently operates puts passengers off using it. Quite the opposite, in fact!

Your responses on here suggest someone who has zero real world insight or understanding of the operational railway, and perhaps enjoys looking for reasons to moan. Nobody is forcing you to use the railway if you have such a low opinion of it!

I'm simply saying that ensuring that both on-train and station information are accurate and up to date is the day job, not an optional extra.

 

[ComUtoR]

Ideally a DOO driver should be making appropriate announcements, of course.

That is, if they know about the alteration. Constantly being the last to know is very frustrating for a DOO Driver. Generally I am confident that 95+% of DOO Drivers will make an announcement about a change of stopping pattern the second they get the stop order. It's pretty routine to do because the alternative is...

There is no right answer to the OP's query because there is no clear information about what is actually happening on the ground. Platform or train could be wrong in this case. It's almost impossible to determine which. It's also a possibility that the passenger is wrong. I work in the industry and often mishear the announcement or get into a panic because I think its my train. The one I hate the most is when the CIS announces all stops and ends with "will not be calling at today"

Perception vs reality is at play here. We both know what is supposed to happen and fully support it but we understand the reality of what can go wrong and why it does. None of which helps the passengers stuck in the middle.

There is, of course, the obvious answer.....

 

[zwk500]

There is, of course, the obvious answer.....

A clear communication process with suitable assistive apps/technology to ensure drivers accept the SSO/skip order before publishing it?

 

[Desirolly]

The Thameslink ‘Check platform screens’ always makes me laugh!

 

[ComUtoR]

A clear communication process with suitable assistive apps/technology to ensure drivers accept the SSO/skip order before publishing it?

Excellent answer but sadly one we have to file in the ever growing tooooo difficult and expensive pile. However, thank you for playing. You may have 14 internet points. I have to drop 6 as there was clearly a more obvious forum response.

 

[zwk500]

Excellent answer but sadly one we have to file in the ever growing tooooo difficult and expensive pile. However, thank you for playing. You may have 14 internet points. I have to drop 6 as there was clearly a more obvious forum response.

Oh I knew exactly where you were pointing everybody. Sadly, you made it rather too obvious for me to indulge you

 

[bramling]

I’m telling it like it is. I’m not here to defend or apologise for anything - what I have described above is the operational reality. I don’t see any evidence that the way the railway currently operates puts passengers off using it. Quite the opposite, in fact!

My neighbour ended up in Peterborough recently, after his train was amended to run non-stop from Stevenage to Peterborough. He is adamant there was no PA from the driver in his carriage (declassified first in a 700/1), though the PIS was working complete with auto announcements. Needless to say he was absolutely fuming, indeed if he'd been on a service half an hour later there would have been no train back due to time of night. I merely reminded him why I rarely use the train these days - I've never had this experience, but I did have to walk from Stevenage to Hitchin at midnight one day last year due to a signal failure!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Just as an aside, this is something TrainFX gets right. It can be altered remotely by control with no action by the crew - in disruption sometimes as crew the first clue you get is the displays change to show an earlier terminating station/intermediate stops cancelled before you get a call from control to inform you.

Which is exactly how LNR 350s operate. Not nice as train crew to find out you're skipping half the stops on the Trent Valley by the auto announcer! But it's far more convenient than being told 20 minutes later by control.

 

[sjoh]

I'd be fuming to end up in Peterborough too....

 

[RailExplorer]

As a DOO driver myself, I would say that you should trust the platform information displays. I normally don't get told I am skipping stations until the last possible point, by which point I have already seen several platform displays showing the new stopping pattern. I then have to manually change the on train announcements and information which I could forget given everything else going on at that point too.

 

[James H]

I was on a 700 recently that was held at a signal outside a station for ~15 minutes.

The chime for a driver announcement sounded 2 or 3 times, but no actual announcement was heard.

 

[Steve4031]

I am a teacher and was working at a high school on the south side of Chicago. I was known as the Amtrak guru because I have traveled every route. One day I was called out of class and had my class covered. I thought I was in trouble for something because this is highly unusual. On the way to the office, I tried to figure out why I was in trouble. When I got there I found out I was called out of class because another colleague's son had not gotten off the train at the Newark airport stop on the NEC. She was frantic because she thought he was going to miss his flight.

We established that he had several hours until his flight left Newark. She was on the phone with her son and he explained the next stop was Trenton. I advised the mom to have him get off in Trenton and take NJT back to Newark. It was a simple fix. I even used an app to pull up the correct track numbers.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I recall once overhearing (along with everyone else in the leading carriage) a vehement argument between a driver and "Control" (well, I only heard the driver's side) at Turnham Green, where the platform indicator (and signals) said the train was going to Ealing, although the indicators at every station up till then (certainly since I had boarded at Mile End) and the train's destination blind, said Richmond.

The driver eventually won, when he pointed out that nobody on the train wanted to go to Ealing (because that's not where the destination blind and departure screens had been saying it was going, so anyone for Ealing would have let it go and await the following train), and detraining everyone would take even longer than changing the points, even with the necessary time-out.

 

[jdp30]

I was on a 700 recently that was held at a signal outside a station for ~15 minutes.

The chime for a driver announcement sounded 2 or 3 times, but no actual announcement was heard.

Or sometimes it'll be the chime and crackling sounds/a very muffled voice that you can't understand. Bit worrying really because the driver probably thinks we can hear them.

 

[Horizon22]

That is, if they know about the alteration. Constantly being the last to know is very frustrating for a DOO Driver. Generally I am confident that 95+% of DOO Drivers will make an announcement about a change of stopping pattern the second they get the stop order. It's pretty routine to do because the alternative is...

There is no right answer to the OP's query because there is no clear information about what is actually happening on the ground. Platform or train could be wrong in this case. It's almost impossible to determine which. It's also a possibility that the passenger is wrong. I work in the industry and often mishear the announcement or get into a panic because I think its my train. The one I hate the most is when the CIS announces all stops and ends with "will not be calling at today"

Perception vs reality is at play here. We both know what is supposed to happen and fully support it but we understand the reality of what can go wrong and why it does. None of which helps the passengers stuck in the middle.

There is, of course, the obvious answer.....

It depends how the alteration is made. I know increasing use is being made of GSMR to "Contact Control" to provide an alteration, rather than what should really be considered a now old-fashioned not to call order / special stop order slip.

If you are between stations, it may well be the platform staff know first and then you can make an announcement accordingly.

For the OP it might be that the train PIS database is simply wrong for what has been input into for the relevant headcode, or the wrong announcement code has been set up - there are probably thousands of iterations for somewhere like Thameslink.

 

[Chris M]

The PIS on a 700 is definitely not a reliable source of information: