London Buses Discussion

[Goldfish62]

Hi all, does anyone know what the new diamond stickers on Stagecoach buses are for?

I've noticed over the past week that the buses have a grey or yellow diamond symbol right underneath the front destination blind but have no idea what they mean.

I haven't seen them on Go-Ahead buses in my area, it's just Stagecoach.

They're for the fire services so they know what sort of bus they're dealing with - diesel, battery hybrid, battery electric, fuel cell. Chucking water on a battery fire isn't a good idea.

 

[Fleetmaster]

Putting a fire response symbol on the part of the bus that quite often gets squashed under a bridge doesn't seem too bright either!

 

[busesrusuk]

Hi all, does anyone know what the new diamond stickers on Stagecoach buses are for?

I've noticed over the past week that the buses have a grey or yellow diamond symbol right underneath the front destination blind but have no idea what they mean.

I haven't seen them on Go-Ahead buses in my area, it's just Stagecoach.

I understand that they are an identifier of what propulsion system powers the vehicle - diesel, hybrid, hydrogen or electric. I think the intention is to assist the emergency services to be able to identify what they are dealing with when deciding appropriate action to take in the event of an incident. The grey one is a small petrol pump symbol to denote diesel and a number of Stagecoach vehicles around Romford were sporting them yesterday. Not sure what the yellow one is but could be hybrid (if you know the fleetnumber that will give a clue)

The new Go Ahead SEe's that are entering service at Merton have quite a large orange diamond with an electric flash in it on the roof of the vehicles as part of the roof mounted fleetnumbers. They aren't obvious on any other part of the vehicle but I haven't looked that closely and wasn't immediately obvious on the pic of one I took the other day.

From what I've been told it will be rolled out fleetwide....

 

[Goldfish62]

Putting a fire response symbol on the part of the bus that quite often gets squashed under a bridge doesn't seem too bright either!

Which part of the bus is that? Not that deroofings are known to cause a fire.

 

[Snow1964]

They're for the fire services so they know what sort of bus they're dealing with - diesel, battery hybrid, battery electric, fuel cell. Chucking water on a battery fire isn't a good idea.

Is happening London wide.
Apparently a follow up to Potters Bar garage fire last year when number of buses were destroyed including 2 electric ones, and different types parked alongside each other caused some confusion regarding using water on fire that was electrical fire.

 

[Goldfish62]

Is happening London wide.
Apparently a follow up to Potters Bar garage fire last year when number of buses were destroyed including 2 electric ones, and different types parked alongside each other caused some confusion regarding using water on fire that was electrical fire.

That's correct.

 

[Snow1964]

Notable for the cessation of the last Red Arrow services.

Technically, although the services will stop running, the contracts continue.

It seems route 11 is taking over 507 contract
route 108 is taking over 521 contract
Both routes 507 and 521 contracts only started August 2021 so will continue to end with the other routes instead.

Service changes

What seems to have happened is that route 11 and 108 tender awards were cancelled, and original contracts have been allowed to lapse so there is no (or very little) compensation to Operators. Route 11 contract started October 2015 and had been extended, route 108 contract started October 2016.

 

[Goldfish62]

I understand that they are an identifier of what propulsion system powers the vehicle - diesel, hybrid, hydrogen or electric. I think the intention is to assist the emergency services to be able to identify what they are dealing with when deciding appropriate action to take in the event of an incident. The grey one is a small petrol pump symbol to denote diesel and a number of Stagecoach vehicles around Romford were sporting them yesterday. Not sure what the yellow one is but could be hybrid (if you know the fleetnumber that will give a clue)

The new Go Ahead SEe's that are entering service at Merton have quite a large orange diamond with an electric flash in it on the roof of the vehicles as part of the roof mounted fleetnumbers. They aren't obvious on any other part of the vehicle but I haven't looked that closely and wasn't immediately obvious on the pic of one I took the other day.

From what I've been told it will be rolled out fleetwide....

Every Abellio and Metroline bus I saw today had them.

 

[Mikey C]

I understand that they are an identifier of what propulsion system powers the vehicle - diesel, hybrid, hydrogen or electric. I think the intention is to assist the emergency services to be able to identify what they are dealing with when deciding appropriate action to take in the event of an incident. The grey one is a small petrol pump symbol to denote diesel and a number of Stagecoach vehicles around Romford were sporting them yesterday. Not sure what the yellow one is but could be hybrid (if you know the fleetnumber that will give a clue)

The new Go Ahead SEe's that are entering service at Merton have quite a large orange diamond with an electric flash in it on the roof of the vehicles as part of the roof mounted fleetnumbers. They aren't obvious on any other part of the vehicle but I haven't looked that closely and wasn't immediately obvious on the pic of one I took the other day.

From what I've been told it will be rolled out fleetwide....

Why on the roof, and not somewhere more visible from ground level? On double deckers in particular, you'd need to go up on the fireman's ladder to see the symbol!

 

[Goldfish62]

Why on the roof, and not somewhere more visible from ground level? On double deckers in particular, you'd need to go up on the fireman's ladder to see the symbol!

Obviously applied at the factory at the same time as the roof fleetnumber.

Undoubtedly they'll be applied elsewhere on the vehicles. Give GoAhead a chance - they've got 2,500 buses to get through!

 

[Snow1964]

Today is the last day of 507 and 521, the last of the Red Arrow bus routes.

Survived just over 57 years (I think it started 18/04/66) as a series of inter-station services and services between station and West End (including some routes that were withdrawn when Victoria line opened and replaced them).

For those interested routes were
500 Victoria station and Oxford Street (via Park Lane)
501 Waterloo - London Bridge via Holborn
502 Waterloo - Liverpool St (via Fleet St)
503 Waterloo - Victoria (via Westminster) to 1981
503 Moorgate - South Kensington museums off-peak from 1988
504 Waterloo - Liverpool Street (Saturdays)
505 Waterloo - London Bridge (via Clerkenwell road)
506 Victoria - Piccadilly Circus
507 Waterloo - Victoria (via Lambeth bridge)
508 Marylebone - Marylebone (via Oxford Street)
509 Victoria - South Kensington museums
510 Victoria - Liverpool St (via London Bridge)
511 Waterloo - Victoria (via Westminster)
513 Waterloo - London Bridge (via Cannon Street)
521 Waterloo - London Bridge (via Holborn)

 

[higthomas]

They've also released more details about the new "Superloop" routes, including a consultation on the x183.

https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2023/04/embargo.html

01:00 There are two big bus stories today.
One is the extinguishing of four bus routes in central London.
The other has not yet been announced.
...

06:00 The time has arrived.
The embargo has been lifted.
The consultation has appeared.
...

The press release has revealed the route numbers the five new Superloop routes will use and also their proposed endpoints.

X183 (Harrow to Finchley)
X34 (Finchley to Walthamstow)
X123 (Walthamstow to Royal Docks)
X269 (Bexleyheath to Bromley)
X119 (Bromley to Croydon)

The press release also includes maps which reveal places each route might stop along the way.

X183: Harrow → Kenton (for Northwick Park Hospital) → Kingsbury → Hendon → Finchley Central → North Finchley
X34: North Finchley → New Southgate → Arnos Grove → North Middlesex Hospital → Silver Street → Walthamstow Central
X123: Walthamstow Central → Gants Hill → Ilford → Barking → Royal Docks
X269: Bexleyheath → Sidcup → Queen Mary's Hospital → Chislehurst → Bickley → Bromley
X119: Bromley → West Wickham → Sandilands → East Croydon → West Croydon

Most of these places were revealed in the initial Superloop press release a month ago - only the underlined stops are new. But dripfeeding the information means TfL get two whammy headlines out of the same story, because that's press management for you.
...


The consultation for route X183 contains much fuller details, including frequencies and all the proposed stops.

X183: Harrow bus station → Kenton station → Kenton Lane → Charlton Road → Kingsbury station → Roe Green → West Hendon → Hendon station → Hendon Central station → The Quadrant → Finchley Central station → North Finchley bus station

(TFL sources are also available, but never half as interesting.)

 

[Fleetmaster]

Today is the last day of 507 and 521, the last of the Red Arrow bus routes.

Definitely a retrograde step. Obviously the commuter market is reduced (but not gone completely!), but now more than ever, the opportunity is there for an all electric high speed mostly standing network of central terminal interconnectors.

It would massively improve the experience of those who have no choice but to use the tube to travel through central London.

They can hardly say there aren't the drivers, given the reductions across the board on the TfL network, and the fact they now pay more than any other bus operator in the country.

 

[Goldfish62]

They've also released more details about the new "Superloop" routes, including a consultation on the x183.

https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2023/04/embargo.html



(TFL sources are also available, but never half as interesting.)

As ever interesting views from Diamond Geezer.

So he broadly welcomes the concept, as I do, and likes the X183 proposals. I agree with his view on the 183 frequency reduction. Frequency reductions in outer London have already gone too far and this cycle needs to be broken.

 

[higthomas]

As ever interesting views from Diamond Geezer.

So he broadly welcomes the concept, as I do, and likes the X183 proposals. I agree with his view on the 183 frequency reduction. Frequency reductions in outer London have already gone too far and this cycle needs to be broken.

True, but I think ultimately it's inevitable whilst bus speeds get slower and slower.

London remains the most congested city in the world apparently (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64219939) and sadly in many places a bus is just a really bad way to get around. I remember notably a bus taking about 30 minutes to cross Hyde Park Corner; I think I could have crawled quicker.

What it really needs is a bold politician of the Ken Livingston ILK who is prepared to grasp that nettle and actually do something about it. Sadly Sadiq Kahn is not that person (and neither will whoever the Tories end up choosing I' sure), so and fix is 5 years away at least.

 

[MotCO]

They've also released more details about the new "Superloop" routes, including a consultation on the x183.

https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2023/04/embargo.html



(TFL sources are also available, but never half as interesting.)

Do the X routes follow the normal bus routes, or are there any differences apart from missing out stops.

 

[higthomas]

Do the X routes follow the normal bus routes, or are there any differences apart from missing out stops.

They look like they often follow the normal routes for part of them, but with missing out stops, and then go off-route to produce the "loop" network. The only one we've go a map for is the x183 which should give you an idea:

 

[bakerstreet]

Do the X routes follow the normal bus routes, or are there any differences apart from missing out stops.

There are differences.

The link explains for example how the x183 will take a shortcut and divert to Hendon Central station whilst the 183 does not serve Hendon Central

Similar differences on the existing x140 compared to 140

 

[Goldfish62]

True, but I think ultimately it's inevitable whilst bus speeds get slower and slower.

London remains the most congested city in the world apparently (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64219939) and sadly in many places a bus is just a really bad way to get around. I remember notably a bus taking about 30 minutes to cross Hyde Park Corner; I think I could have crawled quicker.

What it really needs is a bold politician of the Ken Livingston ILK who is prepared to grasp that nettle and actually do something about it. Sadly Sadiq Kahn is not that person (and neither will whoever the Tories end up choosing I' sure), so and fix is 5 years away at least.

Completely agree with everything you're saying.

At least we did have the Livingstone era. Buses and public transport as a whole would be a lot worse now without it.

 

[Hophead]

And the X119 will take the obvious and fast route along Kent Gate Way and Gravel Hill, rather than dawdling with the traffic through West Wickham

 

[Fleetmaster]

Definitely looking like SuperLoop is a mere distraction or back office redundancy avoiding scheme.

The proposal is borderline gibberish and befinitely patronizing to professional bus people. You don't crow about added capacity while using the new route to justify reducing capacity on the exact same roads. You also don't pretend a 6 minute combined headway is possible except in a few places and only by sheer accident. You don't pretend anyone seriously imagined these express routes would be peak time only, not least given the reasons given to think it quite literally is just an ordinary bus route but with limited stops. And you definitely don't crow about bus routes interchanging (it's London!) and definitely not without specifying where the 12 stops are.

 

[Mikey C]

There are differences.

The link explains for example how the x183 will take a shortcut and divert to Hendon Central station whilst the 183 does not serve Hendon Central

Similar differences on the existing x140 compared to 140

Connecting stations is clearly a priority with these routes, the X183's limited stops nearly all being rail interchanges with the Met/Chiltern, Bakerloo/Overground, Jubilee, Thameslink, Northern (Edgware) and Northern (High Barnet)

 

[Goldfish62]

Connecting stations is clearly a priority with these routes, the X183's limited stops nearly all being rail interchanges with the Met/Chiltern, Bakerloo/Overground, Jubilee, Thameslink, Northern (Edgware) and Northern (High Barnet)

Yes, and it makes perfect sense in the absence of an outer orbital railway.

 

[MotCO]

I'm disappointed that the routes do not have a degree of overlap to avoid having to change. I would have thought that having to change buses does put people off using buses unlike trains, since there are more factors which could lead to late running.

 

[Lewisham2221]

They can hardly say there aren't the drivers, given the reductions across the board on the TfL network, and the fact they now pay more than any other bus operator in the country.

Except that the entire industry is pretty much still operating at a reduced level compared to pre-covid, yet pretty much everybody is understaffed because the industry is hemorrhaging drivers (and, I believe, engineering staff too) left, right and centre.

London bus driver wages may be, by far, the highest in the country, but that doesn't necessarily make it any more attractive. I live in one of the cheapest parts of the country for rent, renting anything even remotely equivalent to what I do now would cost more per week than my current house costs per month. Safe to say, I'm not aware of any London operator paying 4x my current wage...

 

[MedwayValiant]

The X269 is the only Superloop route I'm particularly likely to go on, and we appear now to have confirmation that its route between Sidcup and just east of Bromley town centre will be the same as the existing 269. That's no great surprise since there isn't really any other way it could go. It may be that Queen Mary's Hospital, Chislehurst Bridge (at the bottom of the station approach), and Bickley Cricket Ground (5 mins walk from Bickley station, which can't be served directly by bus because of a weak bridge) are to be the only stops on that section.

But what will it do when it gets to the crossroads at Kentish Way? There's no easy way to turn round, so a one way loop around Bromley town centre using Elmfield Road in one direction and Kentish Way in the other seems the most likely, but that means either not stopping anywhere very near the shops or the Bromley South stop being on the wrong side of the road for station users.

 

[Scotrail88]

With the red arrow ending today, where are the buses being redeployed?

 

[Goldfish62]

With the red arrow ending today, where are the buses being redeployed?

108 principally, plus I think some to the 444.

 

[Snow1964]

With the red arrow ending today, where are the buses being redeployed?

I think they have to have extra seats added before being redeployed, for Red Arrow routes only have 21 seats (and standing room), normal routes get nearer 33-35 seats on 12m dual door buses.

 

[Thirteen]

I wonder in theory if you could do Bexleyheath to Wimbledon for £1.75 using two of the Superloop buses then getting off at Sandilands and get the tram to Wimbledon.