TPE franchise to move to OLR

[Peterthegreat]

There is one fatal flaw in your rather over the top sarcastic response. You are proposing even fewer trains, so if any of your emergency timetabled services get cancelled that is fewer trains still with longer gaps between. And cancellations are as predictable in the TP core as the rain coming in sideways over Marsden Moor.

And that is exactly what happened when Northern reduced their services. It was quite common for gaps of three hours to appear on what should have been a half hourly service.

 

[Lewisham2221]

So who drives C-D ? You need a competent Driver and then the released Driver to sit and learn the route. I get that you can create spare Drivers by reducing the need by having a reduced timetable, but you still need C-D covered and competent people to train and assess them. Spare capacity is quickly used up because you need to send those people out to train. It would be pretty complicated to have someone driving the route B-C and then switching position so that another Driver can then drive C-D. It would also lengthen the route learning process. Routes need a specific number of trips/days/time (dependent on the TOC safety case) to be covered.

It isn't a simple process and often takes time (and money)

The driver from C or D depot, who signs and is already rostered to drive the C-D leg of the route.

I totally understand that it's not a simple, quick and easy process. But what is the alternative?

Even if you leave things exactly as they are and wait for the DfT/RDG and unions to resolve the industrial relations issues, what happens then? Crews will still need additional route training in order to achieve end-to-end operation, or at least longer journey legs between crew changes. As well as plugging any other gaps. That sounds like one hell of a lot of overtime and rest day working required to get things to where they need to be, without some form of timetable reduction. I mean, after such a long, drawn out dispute, what are the chances of enough drivers having the goodwill to even want to do overtime/rest day work, if moral is as low as portrayed?

Yes, I know it's not straightforward. Yes, I know it's not perfect. But neither is the current situation. So what? Just carry on with the status quo, hope the IR dispute gets resolved sharpish, and then everything reverts to perfection overnight?

 

[43066]

The driver from C or D depot, who signs and is already rostered to drive the C-D leg of the route.

Who when asked if he can have someone on the cab for route learning might very well say “nope, I’m a first year”, “nope I’m on an action plan”, “nope I’m worried I’d be distracted”, or just “nope!”.

The last one is why goodwill is so important.

 

[Bantamzen]

And that is exactly what happened when Northern reduced their services. It was quite common for gaps of three hours to appear on what should have been a half hourly service.

I know, it happened to me a few times on my local line when the service went down to hourly. Thankfully I have alternatives, and I'll need them as services restored to half hourly will be back to hourly from the new timetable. But for someone commuting regularly on the TP core these may not exist. But it seems this does not matter so long as cancellations are neat and tidy....

 

[Krokodil]

I know, it happened to me a few times on my local line when the service went down to hourly. Thankfully I have alternatives, and I'll need them as services restored to half hourly will be back to hourly from the new timetable. But for someone commuting regularly on the TP core these may not exist. But it seems this does not matter so long as cancellations are neat and tidy....

So basically you're of the opinion that a service which advertises a half-hourly service but which randomly cancels a significant proportion of services at random, often several consecutive trains is better than running an hourly service that will actually turn up reliably - and which it's possible to plan double sets rather than have units from cancelled trains sitting in sidings or blocking platforms.

 

[Peterthegreat]

So basically you're of the opinion that a service which advertises a half-hourly service but which randomly cancels a significant proportion of services at random, often several consecutive trains is better than running an hourly service that will actually turn up reliably - and which it's possible to plan double sets rather than have units from cancelled trains sitting in sidings or blocking platforms.

No. What we are saying is that cutting the services does NOT necessarily mean the reduced services will fully operate.

 

[mike57]

A simple solution:

Couple up all the 185s into 6 car sets and produce a set of diagrams which is deliverable by the current staff using the resulting 6 car units, and the 802s on Liverpool - Newcastle, taking into account route knowledge and working arrangements. Concentrate these on the core route. These should then run as advertised barring outside issues such as infrastructure problems. No coupling and uncoupling of units which is one of the current excuses why 3 car units turn up on busy services. (no one to bring the other 3 cars out of the depot) If you can then work in 68s+Mk5 sets so much the better but given the training and reliability issues make sure your core routes are covered by units with the widest traction knowledge.

Bin the extention of Cleethorpes services from Manchester to Liverpool for the time being, as other services are availble. Run York Scarborough as a shuttle apart from maybe a morning and evening peak service as far as Leeds.

The 6 car units are only uncoupled for maintainance. Ensure that there are enough spare staff to cover for normal holidays and some training, and as a training priority ensure that as far a possible route knowledge is extended to reduce the need for multiple crew changes, as this is another reason for poor reliability.

If the industrial relations issues are resolved then amend to take advantage. As the training situation improves route knowledge recast the timetable to reduce crew changes. Only introduce additional services when you are confident that you can cover them. As part of forward planning ensure that only 5 and 6 car units work between Leeds and Manchester and Sheffield and Manchester. Running more 3 car services on congested routes makes no sense.

Longer term consider what to do with the Mk 5s, as a passenger I prefer the environment offered by loco hauled stock, but even I can see that these sets are problematic, and introduce all sorts of problems. Personally I would be making a case to buy some more 802s to use on services north of York where 125mph running is possible, i.e. Middlesboro services. Yes, I know, money is tight etc etc, but if you dont ask you dont get.

 

[Krokodil]

So what's your short-term solution to the current farce?

No. What we are saying is that cutting the services does NOT necessarily mean the reduced services will fully operate.

 

[Peterthegreat]

So what's your short-term solution to the current farce?

I don't think there is a short term solution. That's why we are in this mess. If it was recognised a year ago that it would be a longer term issue then we should have planned for that. It is possible to run fewer trains more reliably but only if resources are planned that way. As has been mentioned up thread the short term withdrawal of services doesn't create an efficient service.

 

[Bantamzen]

So basically you're of the opinion that a service which advertises a half-hourly service but which randomly cancels a significant proportion of services at random, often several consecutive trains is better than running an hourly service that will actually turn up reliably - and which it's possible to plan double sets rather than have units from cancelled trains sitting in sidings or blocking platforms.

I've been over my reasoning time & again in this thread. Running an hourly service will lead to overcrowding, which will lead to delays, which will lead to cancellations. So despite falling back to an emergency timetable, TPE could find themselves with exactly the same problem, but with less services and less capacity. That doesn't sound like a very good solution at all.

So what's your short-term solution to the current farce?

When TPE are taken over, senior leaders of the company go straight to the DfT, do not pass 'Go', do not collect £200 and thrash out a solution that gets movement on the disputes currently waging to allow, at the very least for RDW & overtime bans by union members to be suspended. In other words get some movement that allows the company to claw back a bit of goodwill, enough at least to make the already reduced timetable (which some people seem to have forgotten about) more robust.

The alternative, at least as far as some members of the forums seem to think, is to dial back a very busy commuter & long distance operation to the point that it almost becomes so infrequent that it becomes irrelevant, and punters just have to find alternatives.

 

[Krokodil]

The alternative, at least as far as some members of the forums seem to think, is to dial back a very busy commuter & long distance operation to the point that it almost becomes so infrequent that it becomes irrelevant, and punters just have to find alternatives.

But you're no worse off than you are at the moment. Punters are already having to find alternatives, anyone who has the option of driving is doing so.

Some trains are cancelled more often than they actually run. You might as well stop advertising them in advance and leave them as Q paths.

 

[Bantamzen]

But you're no worse off than you are at the moment. Punters are already having to find alternatives, anyone who has the option of driving is doing so.

Some trains are cancelled more often than they actually run. You might as well stop advertising them in advance and leave them as Q paths.

And what would stop that happening under an emergency timetable? And even if it were more reliable, what about capacity? A full to rammed train is of no use to passengers mid-route, and worse if frequencies are reduced. As @Peterthegreat rightly says, there is no real short term solution that has a hope in hell of actually working well. It needs as I say above action from the top to move on the dispute, even if it is to simply find a way to agree a truce to allow "normal" working away from strike days whilst a permanent solution is found.

 

[nr758123]

A lot of this discussion sounds like ideas for timetable changes which might form part of a Recovery Plan. Of course there is already a recovery plan which apparently goes started in January this year, just not one that TPE are willing (or permitted?) to publish.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Whatever this great recovery plan is, even the staff havent been told about it and what it is....

 

[nr758123]

Whatever this great recovery plan is, even the staff havent been told about it and what it is....

Wait until 29th May and it can be FOI'd.

 

[EZJ]

Well MD Mr Golton has announced he's leaving.

 

[Urobach]

Well MD Mr Golton has announced he's leaving.

In comes Chris Jackson from Northern as interim MD

Whatever this great recovery plan is, even the staff havent been told about it and what it is....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well MD Mr Golton has announced he's leaving.

Unsurprising, if you preside over such a shower of the proverbial you can't really expect to keep your job.

 

[Neptune]

Fair play for TPE. Chris Jackson generally gets what he wants. Just look at the Hope Valley capacity uplift and the Grand Central set which worked peak additionals into/out of Leeds pre Covid as evidence of his work.

 

[tpfx89]

Unsurprising, if you preside over such a shower of the proverbial you can't really expect to keep your job.

Probably need some consideration for inherited problems, external influences and improving trends more recently as an assessment of whether or not it's the right move

 

[Killingworth]

Fair play for TPE. Chris Jackson generally gets what he wants. Just look at the Hope Valley capacity uplift and the Grand Central set which worked peak additionals into/out of Leeds pre Covid as evidence of his work.

He's a good man but hasn't the power to move mountains. Northern trains from Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street for Eurovision have his mark of getting things done.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Fair play for TPE. Chris Jackson generally gets what he wants. Just look at the Hope Valley capacity uplift and the Grand Central set which worked peak additionals into/out of Leeds pre Covid as evidence of his work.

I'm not sure the GC set should fill people with confidence. If they had tried to look at it they wouldn't have seen much because it hardly ever ran.

 

[Watershed]

Unsurprising, if you preside over such a shower of the proverbial you can't really expect to keep your job.

He's an experienced railwayman who tried to make the best of a very tricky situation that was almost entirely outside his control. I imagine he will get a job at another FirstGroup TOC soon enough, and if not, there are plenty of other transport companies that would be lucky to have him onboard.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Probably need some consideration for inherited problems, external influences and improving trends more recently as an assessment of whether or not it's the right move

I agree.

The problems at TPE were caused by decisions made by others long before Golton appeared on the scene.

I think he actually recognised what the issues were and why, but wasn't allowed to say or do what needed to be done because : a) most of the issues were caused by decisions made by First Group franchises in the past and so he couldn't be seen to blame his predecessors, Directors still employed there, or the parent company;
b) the DfT would have prevented him doing what needed to be done to resolve the matters and he couldn't be seen to be blaming the DfT.

The question now is whether the new chap will get a grip of the Directors that remain from previous First franchises and change the fundamentally flawed thinking at the senior levels in TPE, because it is those people and that thinking which have caused this mess in the first place.

 

[Neptune]

I'm not sure the GC set should fill people with confidence. If they had tried to look at it they wouldn't have seen much because it hardly ever ran.

What absolute rubbish. Typical uninformed negative hyperbole that happens on here far too often.

The GC set hire came about to help Northern at a time when there was a shortage of capacity on the Calder Valley. It was crewed by GC and worked as a peak extra prior to returning to BDI to work the mid morning departure to Kings Cross.

It ran more often than it didn’t and anytime it didn’t run was not down to Chris Jackson or indeed Northern, it was laid squarely at GC’s door due to a shortage of either GC drivers or trains. He made sure a few Leeds Conductor Team managers signed the 180’s in case GC didn’t have a train manager to work it which minimised the risk of cancellation. It was extremely popular and regularly ran full by the time it reached Leeds. On the rare occasions it didn’t run you really felt it on the next couple of services.

Chris will be sadly missed by Northern. In the time I’ve personally known him I’ve found him to be an honest, approachable and dynamic leader who always does the very best he can with the tools he has at his disposal.

 

[Geeves]

I agree with Neptune's post about. Northern's loss will surely be TPEs gain.

He does seem to be able to get things done and in all my dealings with him seems like an actual nice guy. Hopefully he can rebuild some moral in his new role!

 

[Bertie the bus]

What absolute rubbish. Typical uninformed negative hyperbole that happens on here far too often.

The GC set hire came about to help Northern at a time when there was a shortage of capacity on the Calder Valley. It was crewed by GC and worked as a peak extra prior to returning to BDI to work the mid morning departure to Kings Cross.

It ran more often than it didn’t and anytime it didn’t run was not down to Chris Jackson or indeed Northern, it was laid squarely at GC’s door due to a shortage of either GC drivers or trains. He made sure a few Leeds Conductor Team managers signed the 180’s in case GC didn’t have a train manager to work it which minimised the risk of cancellation. It was extremely popular and regularly ran full by the time it reached Leeds. On the rare occasions it didn’t run you really felt it on the next couple of services.

Chris will be sadly missed by Northern. In the time I’ve personally known him I’ve found him to be an honest, approachable and dynamic leader who always does the very best he can with the tools he has at his disposal.

Running more often than not is not a good thing. Trains are supposed to run every day as per the timetable. I tried to use the evening train about 6 times and it ran once. When I had a bit of a moan about it to a member of the Customer Services staff at Leeds and asked if it ever runs the reply was 'Not very often, no'.

It really doesn't matter whose fault it was for being unreliable, it was unreliable and just coming up with a plan that couldn't be executed well isn't something to boast about. TPE came up with plans in 2015 that looked great and look where they are now.

 

[Neptune]

Running more often than not is not a good thing. Trains are supposed to run every day as per the timetable. I tried to use the evening train about 6 times and it ran once. When I had a bit of a moan about it to a member of the Customer Services staff at Leeds and asked if it ever runs the reply was 'Not very often, no'.

Ah the evening train. Yes introduced after said director had departed Northern first time around. Totally unreliable mainly due to issues with the northbound train from London which then ran empty to Leeds. Northern eventually gave up on that one and ran it with a Northern crew with a spare 3 car 158.

The morning one which I was discussing ran 95% of the time (internal figures I dug out on my laptop last night) which I’m sure you alone will think is appalling. I mean this new TPE MD who is an actual doer and fronts up to actual issues such as capacity on the Hope Valley, which I see you have ignored. If you actually care to look at the morning GC service for what it did instead of focussing on the evening service which turned out to be unreliable thanks to external factors and was actually replaced by Northern’s own stock and crew which was made available thanks to some excellent planning and proved to be a reliable peak buster.

It really doesn't matter whose fault it was for being unreliable, it was unreliable and just coming up with a plan that couldn't be executed well isn't something to boast about.

Would you rather the solution to peak overcrowding was to do nothing? The morning service was well executed. It ran reliably and when it didn’t run (any service can be cancelled due to a variety of internal or external factors) it was felt. The fact the morning service was reliable proved that.

The evening service sadly proved the opposite and I’m sorry, external factors do matter. When this became untenable Northern did some work to make it an internally sourced service and it actually improved the reliability. The fact the morning service never needed this intervention proves how well it worked.

TPE came up with plans in 2015 that looked great and look where they are now.

Change of franchise in 2016, May 2018’s networkwide meltdown amd then covid scuppered those. We have to now look forwards, not backwards as this forum loves to do.

 

[Krokodil]

Unsurprising, if you preside over such a shower of the proverbial you can't really expect to keep your job.

The mess was there before Goulton. He was brought in to try and clear it up. Trouble was that he was doing so with one arm tied behind his back.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I agree with Neptune's post about. Northern's loss will surely be TPEs gain.

He does seem to be able to get things done and in all my dealings with him seems like an actual nice guy. Hopefully he can rebuild some moral in his new role!

This depends if he is given free reign to change things or not or still has one arm tied behind his back like the current MD.