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Central locking for heritage trains

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railwalker

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Surprised I haven't seen anything about this on here. Firstly apologise for the Daily Mail link.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ced-mainstream-rail-lines-time-100-years.html
The ORR argued that centrally-controlled locking systems prevent passengers from opening doors when the platform is too short, according to The Daily Telegraph.

It is understood the upgrade could cost more than £1million and is regarded by West Coast Railways as unnecessary because stewards man the doors on its charter trains at all times.

An exemption from regulations banning carriages without central locking expires next month and West Coast Railways is seeking a judicial review, according to a report on the newspaper's website.
But it appears that all heritage carriages could be banned from carrying passengers on the mainline system, unless they fit some form of central door locking.
 
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JonathanH

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Robert Ambler

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All 'heritage' carriages operating on the 'mainline' network (ie anywhere with speeds over 25mph) do so by way of a derogation or multiple derogations depending on the type of stock. I assume what the article has picked up on (I try and avoid reading Daily Mail articles) and which has been carried by several media outlets is that West Coast Railways current derogation for Mk1 stock runs out shortly. Central door locking is one of those derogations for stock not fitted but there are others and the fact it is running out does not mean it wont be renewed again.
 

jfollows

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If I say that the Daily Mail article, which the original poster should really have quoted in full or in part, starts off by saying
Iconic Flying Scotsman could be forced off mainstream rail lines for the first time in 100 years over new health and safety regulations
New regulations require historic locomotives to have central locking
I think most readers here will conclude that at best, and as usual, the Daily Mail has picked up the wrong end of the stick entirely.
There may be a story relating to heritage coaching stock, but the Daily Mail hasn't got a clue. It’s a non-story.
 

Killingworth

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There is a more railway specific article in the latest issue of Rail magazine, issue 984, page 25,.20230530_173409.jpg
 
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Bletchleyite

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There are systems for Mk1 coaches (it was fitted to Chiltern's Class 121 bubble cars and is fitted to the DMU used by the Swanage to Wareham) so it's just a case of them opening their wallet and getting it done! It uses an electromagnet at the bottom of the door.
 

LowLevel

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There are systems for Mk1 coaches (it was fitted to Chiltern's Class 121 bubble cars and is fitted to the DMU used by the Swanage to Wareham) so it's just a case of them opening their wallet and getting it done! It uses an electromagnet at the bottom of the door.
As I understand it West Coast RC are challenging the measure on the basis that they have existing mitigations that work for them and have a good record.

I do get their point. The longer the train, the harder it is for the guard to ensure it's platformed correctly and CDL does not give the protection of a stewarded door should it be released in the wrong place. This was proven at Stafford a couple of months ago when a long charter stopped with doors off and the cranks on board helpfully jumped out on to the ramps and ballast.

1990s BR CDL is not a very reliable or particularly effective system, except in as much as it's a bolt in the door when it's shut, but then so is a secondary lock operated by a steward.
 

fgwrich

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As I understand it West Coast RC are challenging the measure on the basis that they have existing mitigations that work for them and have a good record.

I do get their point. The longer the train, the harder it is for the guard to ensure it's platformed correctly and CDL does not give the protection of a stewarded door should it be released in the wrong place. This was proven at Stafford a couple of months ago when a long charter stopped with doors off and the cranks on board helpfully jumped out on to the ramps and ballast.

1990s BR CDL is not a very reliable or particularly effective system, except in as much as it's a bolt in the door when it's shut, but then so is a secondary lock operated by a steward.
Nice to see a reasoned post on the subject at last, and I agree - I was recently travelling on one line using CDL fitted stock. Of course, most of the train was platformed, so the CDL was released. My door wasn't, and I didn't fancy getting off on the tail end of the ramp. I hope a compromise can be reached - I mean one things for sure, you're certainly highly unlikely to get any window hanging from the Northern Belle!
 

zwk500

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As I understand it West Coast RC are challenging the measure on the basis that they have existing mitigations that work for them and have a good record.

I do get their point. The longer the train, the harder it is for the guard to ensure it's platformed correctly and CDL does not give the protection of a stewarded door should it be released in the wrong place. This was proven at Stafford a couple of months ago when a long charter stopped with doors off and the cranks on board helpfully jumped out on to the ramps and ballast.

1990s BR CDL is not a very reliable or particularly effective system, except in as much as it's a bolt in the door when it's shut, but then so is a secondary lock operated by a steward.
BIB - The safety regulator has good cause to approach WCRC's safety record with a great deal of caution!

It's interesting WCRC appear to be challenging the need to fit CDL at all, rather than asking for more time to work their way through their fleet fitment plan with mitigation in place.
 

Bill57p9

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As I understand it West Coast RC are challenging the measure on the basis that they have existing mitigations that work for them and have a good record.
Sadly WCRC do not have a good record on safety matters. Though to be fair I am not aware of any WCRC door incidents.
 

LowLevel

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No comment to make on any other aspect of WCRC's safety record. However, I think my thoughts on the door safety systems are well grounded in realism. The ruling will be interesting.
 

yorkie

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There are systems for Mk1 coaches (it was fitted to Chiltern's Class 121 bubble cars and is fitted to the DMU used by the Swanage to Wareham) so it's just a case of them opening their wallet and getting it done! It uses an electromagnet at the bottom of the door.
<sigh> Yes, everything in life is simple, without any thought or expert knowledge needed.... right?

Meanwhile, in the real world...
As I understand it West Coast RC are challenging the measure on the basis that they have existing mitigations that work for them and have a good record.

I do get their point. The longer the train, the harder it is for the guard to ensure it's platformed correctly and CDL does not give the protection of a stewarded door should it be released in the wrong place. This was proven at Stafford a couple of months ago when a long charter stopped with doors off and the cranks on board helpfully jumped out on to the ramps and ballast.

1990s BR CDL is not a very reliable or particularly effective system, except in as much as it's a bolt in the door when it's shut, but then so is a secondary lock operated by a steward.
...thanks for an excellent explanation, as always. A very welcome post at a time when it was very much needed.

I very much hope the ORR suffers a defeat on this matter.
 

zwk500

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No comment to make on any other aspect of WCRC's safety record. However, I think my thoughts on the door safety systems are well grounded in realism. The ruling will be interesting.
I appreciate your thoughts. I too await the ruling with interest.

I do note that a favoured method for Mk1 CDL is electromagnetic plates near the solebar rather than the Bolt through the door frame, so there are options. I also note that WCRC's safety record might be clear on doors but it's general practices and culture do give valid cause for concern that relying upon staff and manual solutions may not be enough. The ORR is, of course, attempting to prevent incidents from happening at all.
 

railwalker

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If I say that the Daily Mail article, which the original poster should really have quoted in full or in part, starts off by saying


I think most readers here will conclude that at best, and as usual, the Daily Mail has picked up the wrong end of the stick entirely.
There may be a story relating to heritage coaching stock, but the Daily Mail hasn't got a clue. It’s a non-story.
Sorry but I am relatively new here, my interest in trains is mainly travelling on them so I don't have some of your vast knowledge of how trains actually "work"
Fully accept using the Daily Mail was not the best Idea, but the other news sources that I looked at about this story were all behind a pay wall.
 

Peter Mugridge

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There is a far more detailed and wholly accurate version of this story in Steam Railway issue 545; pages 42, 43 and a bit more on page 44 as well.
 

Towers

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1990s BR CDL is not a very reliable or particularly effective system, except in as much as it's a bolt in the door when it's shut, but then so is a secondary lock operated by a steward.
I have to say I’d dispute that, it worked pretty well on the HST fleets for a couple of decades or so! It had it’s weaknesses in terms of the potential for door on the catch incidents admittedly, but as a compromise for the tiny proportion of overall journeys made by charter rolling stock it would seem to be a reasonable compromise I would think?

Incidentally, I observed a train of predominantly MK1 stock in Worcester a few weeks back, with BIL / hazard lights fitted to the coach exteriors, so I presume someone has already fitted CDL to theirs?
 

Killingworth

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I have to say I’d dispute that, it worked pretty well on the HST fleets for a couple of decades or so! It had it’s weaknesses in terms of the potential for door on the catch incidents admittedly, but as a compromise for the tiny proportion of overall journeys made by charter rolling stock it would seem to be a reasonable compromise I would think?

Incidentally, I observed a train of predominantly MK1 stock in Worcester a few weeks back, with BIL / hazard lights fitted to the coach exteriors, so I presume someone has already fitted CDL to theirs?

Probably a train owned and operated by the LSL group. They're all fitted.
 

jfollows

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Sorry but I am relatively new here, my interest in trains is mainly travelling on them so I don't have some of your vast knowledge of how trains actually "work"
Fully accept using the Daily Mail was not the best Idea, but the other news sources that I looked at about this story were all behind a pay wall.
Welcome to the forum and the only point I was trying to make is that it's requested that if you post any external source that you also include it as a quote, in part or in full. It means that, even if it's not behind a pay wall, in two years' time the thread will still make sense because the link will probably no longer work, for example. Some people receive forum articles by email and can't always follow links, and if the link is to a long article your point may only be relevant to some of the article.

Your post has provoked some good and relevant discussion, it just happened that the article you posted was misinformed in parts, and when I went to follow the link I only saw nonsense about steam locomotives requiring central locking, which is rubbish.

So please don't take my point as a criticism, it's just advice because I've made the same mistake myself, your input is welcome!

The forum rules state:
  • If referring to an external text-based source, you should put a suitable section of the text in QUOTE tags and provide, as appropriate, details of the source and a relevant comment to promote discussion.
It looks like the forum moderators have done this with your first post now!
 
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Falcon1200

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As I understand it West Coast RC are challenging the measure on the basis that they have existing mitigations that work for them and have a good record.

1990s BR CDL is not a very reliable or particularly effective system, except in as much as it's a bolt in the door when it's shut, but then so is a secondary lock operated by a steward.

The problem with depending on a stewarding system is that the stewards are human beings and are therefore, like all of us, subject to mistakes and distractions. I have to say I am surprised, given how long CDL has been around, that stock is still running on the main line with no other safeguard than a person stationed by each door.
 

LowLevel

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I have to say I’d dispute that, it worked pretty well on the HST fleets for a couple of decades or so! It had it’s weaknesses in terms of the potential for door on the catch incidents admittedly, but as a compromise for the tiny proportion of overall journeys made by charter rolling stock it would seem to be a reasonable compromise I would think?

Incidentally, I observed a train of predominantly MK1 stock in Worcester a few weeks back, with BIL / hazard lights fitted to the coach exteriors, so I presume someone has already fitted CDL to theirs?
It's never been particularly reliable and is prone to air leaks, dicky solenoids and these things are always more problematic on charter stock that often isn't used day in day out. If you have power problems to the coach for whatever reason you lose your CDL in addition.

It's useless for short platforms unless you have an upgraded version which is still very much reliant on someone being in the right place in the train and turning a key - but on trains without driver/guard comms you then lose access to the brake van and the ability to stop the train if need be - communication becomes reliant on radios, you can't just drop the brake.

The bodyside light system on them has always been very misleading and prone to generating mistakes, particularly compared to modern stock.

I much prefer a more modern electro magnet solution.
The problem with depending on a stewarding system is that the stewards are human beings and are therefore, like all of us, subject to mistakes and distractions. I have to say I am surprised, given how long CDL has been around, that stock is still running on the main line with no other safeguard than a person stationed by each door.
That's no different to CDL. It's a dumb system and has no idea whether the guard is releasing the doors correctly or not. Unless you have automatic selective door opening it's always going have human error as a factor.

At least with a steward they can look before they leap in terms of releasing their door locks and opening the doors.

The optimal solution would appear to be CDL plus a steward - WCRC's point is, I *think*, that if they have a train with stewards on each door which seems to work OK, why should they be required to pay to fit additional systems to their trains at their own expense?
 

Bikeman78

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Sadly WCRC do not have a good record on safety matters. Though to be fair I am not aware of any WCRC door incidents.
Some of us are ancient enough to remember hundreds of units running around without any CDL whatsoever. How many doors did a 12VEP have? Whilst people did occasionally fall out, incidents at stations where the train was longer than the platform were quite rare. I did occasionally see people jump out, slam the door shut and walk along the cable trough to get to the platform, usually at Christ's Hospital. The pupils got caught out by the 12 car peak trains stopping at the six car platform.
 

zwk500

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WCRC's point is, I *think*, that if they have a train with stewards on each door which seems to work OK, why should they be required to pay to fit additional systems to their trains at their own expense?
Broadly I think this is it. And I believe the ORR's response is that the Stewards aren't there all the time (serving the teas and coffees once the train is moving) and a manually retractable bolt could allow somebody to open the door in motion. There may also be a concern about punters or stewards opening the door before the train has fully come to a halt in order to expedite the station call (as used to happen with commuters all the time, I'm well aware but then there wasn't a crowd of photographers at every Waterloo platform in the morning rush hour). CDL would provide a measure of security above this.
 

jfollows

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From memory, central door locking was primarily introduced to cut down on deaths caused by people opening doors on moving trains, not primarily for less serious incidents at stations, and that there were a number of deaths recorded on trains passing through the Trent Valley, for example.
Even if that's true, and my memory can be faulty, of course it's at stations where most people notice it.
 

Bletchleyite

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From memory, central door locking was primarily introduced to cut down on deaths caused by people opening doors on moving trains, not primarily for less serious incidents at stations, and that there were a number of deaths recorded on trains passing through the Trent Valley, for example.
Even if that's true, and my memory can be faulty, of course it's at stations where most people notice it.

Though things change over time. An example is the yellow line - its original purpose was to stop people standing too near the edge and getting knocked off the platform under a passing high speed train. Now it's also to maintain a dispatch corridor, and I've increasingly noticed platform staff refuse to give the tip until it's completely clear even if this causes significant delay to walk over and tell people to shift.

Sometimes you find a safety feature introduced for one thing is useful for another.
 

zwk500

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Though things change over time. An example is the yellow line - its original purpose was to stop people standing too near the edge and getting knocked off the platform under a passing high speed train. Now it's also to maintain a dispatch corridor, and I've increasingly noticed platform staff refuse to give the tip until it's completely clear even if this causes significant delay to walk over and tell people to shift.

Sometimes you find a safety feature introduced for one thing is useful for another.
Indeed - the yellow line also found a purpose for keeping people clear of arriving slam-door trains, as it was slightly further back than the width of the doors, and arriving commuters didn't wait for the wheels to stop before jumping down onto the platform. I'm too young to remember it, but have been told stories by parent's friends and colleagues of having to be yanked clear at times of a train arriving like a scythed chariot.
 

LRV3004

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Sadly WCRC do not have a good record on safety matters. Though to be fair I am not aware of any WCRC door incidents.
I think there was an incident at Bath(?) a few years ago where a WCRC charter drew forward with the doors open while people were boarding/alighting.....
 

Peter Mugridge

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That's fine if you have ready access to magazines like that. Not a dig by the way.
True.

Incidentally, the Daily Telegraph report - although it is of course paywalled - is pretty much a direct word for word uncredited "lift" of most of the Steam Railway article... including word for word quotes from individuals...
 

zwk500

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True.

Incidentally, the Daily Telegraph report - although it is of course paywalled - is pretty much a direct word for word uncredited "lift" of most of the Steam Railway article... including word for word quotes from individuals...
Well, I suppose at least then they have a better chance of being accurate rather than the Telegraph's usual trick of just inviting completely mental individuals to submit wild conspiracy theories or to fawn over Johnson's ego.
 

31160

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I've got no sympathy with WCRC over this they have known this day was coming for years, they could have done a few coaches at a time instead of all or nothing but no, they hoped they could find a get around to avoid doing it at all, we are all aware of WCRCs various issues over the years and them having their right to operate taken away twice over various things, and I have travelled on their stock without working lights too often for it to be a fault on this coach or that coach, I used to travel with one railtour company who brought their own emergency lights because the stock was that predictable in the faults with lighting,and I think that isn't allowed on the mainline, not to mention one tour that instead of a break van had all the emergency bits and bobs,not to mention the guard working out of a TSO
 
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