TfGM Bus franchising

[johncrossley]

What are these ceiling panels?

https://dmscdn.vuelio.co.uk/publicitem/ba788619-9d71-4d77-a655-8c006a213932

I presume they are TfL style air cooling, rather than proper air conditioning?

 

[Goldfish62]

I presume they are TfL style air cooling, rather than proper air conditioning?

Yes, forced air circulation with heat pump for cooling and heating. It's standard spec for the E400 EV.

 

[JD2168]

View attachment 136471View attachment 136472
These low down bells are just begging to be hit by accident.

What a strange location for a bell push, right where someone’s knee or bag would be. Even more odd when there are grab poles nearby.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Now then, less of this unhappiness with the new buses, as we all know that TfGM staff are far more knowledgeable regarding bus fitments and interiors than senior bus company people with long experience in running buses....

 

[Deerfold]

Another door?

That'd need a lot of work to current infrastructure to accommodate.

 

[Goldfish62]

That'd need a lot of work to current infrastructure to accommodate.

Agreed. I'm firmly in favour of dual door operation for urban services, but it needs the right infrastructure, and saw tooth bus stations are no good!

 

[johncrossley]

That'd need a lot of work to current infrastructure to accommodate.

So fix the infrastructure! It is their fault for building front door only infrastructure in the first place.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So fix the infrastructure! It is their fault for building front door only infrastructure in the first place.

And how expensive will that be?

 

[Redmike]

So fix the infrastructure! It is their fault for building front door only infrastructure in the first place.

It's not that easy. Millions are being spent on Stockport interchange for example. https://tfgm.com/stockport-interchange

 

[johncrossley]

It's not that easy. Millions are being spent on Stockport interchange for example. https://tfgm.com/stockport-interchange

Whose fault is that? Adapting normal bus stops presumably can be done relatively quickly. They would just have to use front door only at certain bus stations.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Whose fault is that? Adapting normal bus stops presumably can be done relatively quickly. They would just have to use front door only at certain bus stations.

Basically every "normal" bus stop in Greater Manchester is just a sign stuck in the pavement, maybe with a shelter, so I don't think any changes would be required.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's not that easy. Millions are being spent on Stockport interchange for example. https://tfgm.com/stockport-interchange

When you look at Bolton and Wigan as the most notable examples, you can see how big a challenge it is.

At a time when they will have enough challenges to make the sums add up, it's simply not a necessity.

 

[Leedsbusman]

When you look at Bolton and Wigan as the most notable examples, you can see how big a challenge it is.

At a time when they will have enough challenges to make the sums add up, it's simply not a necessity.

Not only that but the pictures only show 4 rows of seats plus the back row - suggesting a capacity of 20 downstairs plus whatever tip ups are in the two wheelchair bays. Add a centre exit and that would make the downstairs capacity minimal.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Not only that but the pictures only show 4 rows of seats plus the back row - suggesting a capacity of 20 downstairs plus whatever tip ups are in the two wheelchair bays. Add a centre exit and that would make the downstairs capacity minimal.

The standing capacity (when no wheelchairs) seems to be quite high downstairs.

 

[johncrossley]

Not only that but the pictures only show 4 rows of seats plus the back row - suggesting a capacity of 20 downstairs plus whatever tip ups are in the two wheelchair bays. Add a centre exit and that would make the downstairs capacity minimal.

If downstairs seating capacity is so important then then the operator shouldn't use double deckers. Full size single deckers or artics are the tool for that situation. I've travelled on two door double deckers my whole life and it is perfectly normal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If downstairs seating capacity is so important then then the operator shouldn't use double deckers. Full size single deckers or artics are the tool for that situation. I've travelled on two door double deckers my whole life and it is perfectly normal.

You would need a different arrangement for GM to allow wheelchair users to still use the front door, but that's no great issue. And anyone who opposes dual door just needs to go to London and see just how much it speeds things up, particularly on routes like Oxford Road (which itself really needs to be artics or even double artics with 3 or 4 doors).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the latest new double-deck bus that has been under discussion on this thread had been designed as a two-door bus, what would be the seating capacity on the lower deck?

 

[andrewbowden]

You would need a different arrangement for GM to allow wheelchair users to still use the front door, but that's no great issue. And anyone who opposes dual door just needs to go to London and see just how much it speeds things up, particularly on routes like Oxford Road (which itself really needs to be artics or even double artics with 3 or 4 doors).

London also has simple touch-in fare paying which also makes an impact on boarding times. There's no need to state destinations and wait for tickets. No need to wait for tickets machines to wake up and be ready for contactless because it's always ready. Paying by card in Manchester is definitely slower. Simplifying boarding processes would be a simpler thing to do.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There's no need to state destinations

There's no need to state destinations in Manchester either, it's just £2.

 

[andrewbowden]

There's no need to state destinations in Manchester either, it's just £2.

Yet everyone still states the destination. The driver still has to enter a destination, even if all they are doing is putting in the route terminus. The ticket machine has to get ready to accept your card. The ticket still has to be printed. The fare is now flat rate and simple, but no steps in the ticket buying process have also been simplified.

(I don't expect it will improve until every bus is franchised and they have introduced fare capping so don't need to sell travel cards on board.)

 

[johncrossley]

London also has simple touch-in fare paying which also makes an impact on boarding times. There's no need to state destinations and wait for tickets. No need to wait for tickets machines to wake up and be ready for contactless because it's always ready. Paying by card in Manchester is definitely slower. Simplifying boarding processes would be a simpler thing to do.

Presumably passengers in Manchester will soon have a similarly speedy ticketing system? Otherwise that would call into question a lot of the argument behind franchising.

Yet everyone still states the destination. The driver still has to enter a destination, even if all they are doing is putting in the route terminus. The ticket machine has to get ready to accept your card. The ticket still has to be printed. The fare is now flat rate and simple, but no steps in the ticket buying process have also been simplified.

Yes, the £2 capped fare (not even flat as fares below £2 still exist) is a shambles regarding boarding times. The commercial operators are simply incapable of getting it. (This applies nationwide outside London, not just in Greater Manchester).

 

[Deerfold]

So fix the infrastructure! It is their fault for building front door only infrastructure in the first place.

Can you describe them at being at fault when there's no plans to have dual door buses?

 

[johncrossley]

Can you describe them at being at fault when there's no plans to have dual door buses?

They have wanted franchising for years so they could have ensured that no single door only bus stations got built.

 

[Leedsbusman]

If downstairs seating capacity is so important then then the operator shouldn't use double deckers. Full size single deckers or artics are the tool for that situation. I've travelled on two door double deckers my whole life and it is perfectly normal.

By that logic as I’ve travelled on single door double deckers my whole life that’s perfectly normal too.

 

[johncrossley]

By that logic as I’ve travelled on single door double deckers my whole life that’s perfectly normal too.

That doesn't follow. The slowness of single door boarding is evident, yet London double deckers function reasonably well with a small number of seats downstairs, because most people go upstairs, leaving the seats downstairs for those who really need them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They have wanted franchising for years so they could have ensured that no single door only bus stations got built.

If "they" have wanted what you say above about "no single door only" bus stations got built, how do you explain the new bus station layouts that have been adopted and built in recent years?

 

[johncrossley]

If "they" have wanted what you say above about "no single door only" bus stations got built, how do you explain the new bus station layouts that have been adopted and built in recent years?

We can only assume that TfGM did not even consider that they had the opportunity to introduce two door buses after franchising or were negligent. Either way it looks bad.

 

[GusB]

I think it's time to park the dual door debate; it has been done to death in previous threads and we're getting away from the main topic.

 

[Leedsbusman]

That doesn't follow. The slowness of single door boarding is evident, yet London double deckers function reasonably well with a small number of seats downstairs, because most people go upstairs, leaving the seats downstairs for those who really need them.

Is it evident though in GM? It was SELNEC who adopted single door operation in the 70s and I don’t recall it significantly slowed things down. Nottingham and Lothian have switched to single door and hasn’t slowed their services as a result.

 

[stait.john]

the trouble is, everywhere outside London uses ITSO smart cards which are a great deal slower than the Oyster card system.

TOTO (tap on-tap off) has proved to speed up boarding on First West of England as no ticket is issued. Ticketer machines can be very slow at picking up the card for card payments when a ticket is issued, it’s actually quicker to pay cash when issuing a ticket if correct fare is tendered.

John