First Potteries Discussion

[Baxenden Bank]

And the 3 - last Hanley 1935, Crewe 1941 too

Sorry, there was a typo in my initial post, I meant 2055. Technically there is also a bus at Adderley Green at 2056 on the 11 and a D & G 16 arriving into Haney at 2056.

So, to put it better. In North Stafforshire after 2100 there are 4 buses in public service. Three First on the 25 and one D & G on the 24.

Some context on evening 'buses in service'.

First Potteries	2006​	Jan-16​	Feb-16​	Jul-16​	Apr-17​	Sep-19​
off-peak	151​	124​	121​	114​	103​	94​
after 1900	77​	63​	65​	67​	61​	51​
after 2000	49​	37​	32​	32​	31​	21​
after 2100	43​	28​	23​	23​	23​	16​
after 2200	33​	26​	21​	20​	20​	9​
after 2300	29​	25​	20​	18​	16​	6​
after 2400	15​	13​	10​	9​	4​	0​

 

[SeanM1997]

Sorry, there was a typo in my initial post, I meant 2055. Technically there is also a bus at Adderley Green at 2056 on the 11 and a D & G 16 arriving into Haney at 2056.

So, to put it better. In North Stafforshire after 2100 there are 4 buses in public service. Three First on the 25 and one D & G on the 24.

Some context on evening 'buses in service'.

First Potteries	2006​	Jan-16​	Feb-16​	Jul-16​	Apr-17​	Sep-19​
off-peak	151​	124​	121​	114​	103​	94​
after 1900	77​	63​	65​	67​	61​	51​
after 2000	49​	37​	32​	32​	31​	21​
after 2100	43​	28​	23​	23​	23​	16​
after 2200	33​	26​	21​	20​	20​	9​
after 2300	29​	25​	20​	18​	16​	6​
after 2400	15​	13​	10​	9​	4​	0​

I know patronage has fallen but surely not to these cliff edge levels

We had the same in Cheshire which saw Arriva trim and trim and trim until they were gone. If only Stoke/Newcastle/Staffordshire Councils could encourage a major operator into the city by offering a true tender process

 

[43055]

Sorry, there was a typo in my initial post, I meant 2055. Technically there is also a bus at Adderley Green at 2056 on the 11 and a D & G 16 arriving into Haney at 2056.

So, to put it better. In North Stafforshire after 2100 there are 4 buses in public service. Three First on the 25 and one D & G on the 24.

Some context on evening 'buses in service'.

First Potteries	2006​	Jan-16​	Feb-16​	Jul-16​	Apr-17​	Sep-19​
off-peak	151​	124​	121​	114​	103​	94​
after 1900	77​	63​	65​	67​	61​	51​
after 2000	49​	37​	32​	32​	31​	21​
after 2100	43​	28​	23​	23​	23​	16​
after 2200	33​	26​	21​	20​	20​	9​
after 2300	29​	25​	20​	18​	16​	6​
after 2400	15​	13​	10​	9​	4​	0​

And on Sundays after around 1930-2000 it is 0!

Meanwhile Burton in East Staffs, Diamond has almost double the number of buses running at 2100 (some of the routes are supported)!

 

[SeanM1997]

And on Sundays after around 1930-2000 it is 0!

Meanwhile Burton in East Staffs, Diamond has almost double the number of buses running at 2100 (some of the routes are supported)!

If only the Council could encourage Diamond to migrate north

 

[Lewisham2221]

The word on the street (well The Sentinel) is that the 4 is well used, running full and standing, with 'Not in Service' on the blind and so on. It would be useful if First were to justify their decision (and public statements) with some numbers. Just how poorly used is it? I'm sure there will have been discussions with the relevant councils where there will have been some numbers passed about but those are not in the public domain.

The Audley to Chesterton section currently has First service 4 buses 0640 to 1805 at roughly 30 minute intervals. The D & G service 1, which operates Wood Lane to Newcastle but in the opposite direction (so not serving Chesterton, A34 etc) runs 0914 to 1724 at hourly intervals from Wood Lane and 0715 to 1822 from Audley itself. Hardly a satisfactory alternative.

I'd imagine you would find the number of people using the service from Wood Lane/Bignall End/Audley to Chesterton is miniscule. The number of people travelling wholly within Wood Lane/Bignall End/Audley will be far higher, but still nowhere near enough to sustain 3 buses per hour! I'm sure D&G will be chomping at the bit to fill those early morning/evening gaps if the passenger numbers are anywhere near as high as the locals are suggesting.

The D&G service does actually serve the A34 between Milehouse and Newcastle - after serving Silverdale it serves Knutton and Lower Milehouse Lane.

Last I heard, the petition to keep the service had over 800 signatures! I wonder how many of those 800 actually use the bus service regularly?

This change to the Audley service has circulated as a rumour on the run up to pretty much every timetable change for the past decade, I wonder why?

I know patronage has fallen but surely not to these cliff edge levels

We had the same in Cheshire which saw Arriva trim and trim and trim until they were gone. If only Stoke/Newcastle/Staffordshire Councils could encourage a major operator into the city by offering a true tender process

To quote a post in an older thread by @Baxenden Bank

Although Stoke-on-Trent City Council officially cancelled all contracted bus services back in 2011, they do in fact subsidise a small number of services. First tried 'blackmail' over the Bentilee evening services a while back. Why spend even £1 on bus services people need to get on with their lives when you can spend £tens of millions on shiny (poor quality & already collapsing) granite paving in the sh*thole that is Hanley City Centre. Not forgetting the £1 million on consultants for the belated and failed HS2 response, before that the £unknown on the 'streetcar named desperate', and the real-time information 'system under test' for a decade.... (list continues for some time).

Rising operating costs + falling government (local and central) financial support = unsustainable services.

It should also be noted that a couple of D&G Bus services are due to face reductions due to "low usage" and that they have also withdrawn a number of evening and Sunday services within the last decade. In fact, there are many former D&G services that no longer exist, although by picking up some of the former First and Baker's stuff, I think they have actually increased PVR. Probably also worth noting that Scragg's operation is far smaller than it used to be, and both Baker's and Wardle's are no more. That's an absolutely huge drop in bus provision across the board in North Staffs, but it only seems to be cuts/changes/fare increases to First services that attract the headlines.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It should also be noted that a couple of D&G Bus services are due to face reductions due to "low usage" and that they have also withdrawn a number of evening and Sunday services within the last decade. In fact, there are many former D&G services that no longer exist, although by picking up some of the former First and Baker's stuff, I think they have actually increased PVR. Probably also worth noting that Scragg's operation is far smaller than it used to be, and both Baker's and Wardle's are no more. That's an absolutely huge drop in bus provision across the board in North Staffs, but it only seems to be cuts/changes/fare increases to First services that attract the headlines.

Scraggs is a strange set up, the remaining one vehicle on service 5 runs wrapped around a Werrington High School* service. I'm not sure what else they run nowadays in terms of contracts or private hire.
Bakers became entangled with the King Long.
Wardle became Arriva, now D & G.
Prior to that you had the ridiculous situation of the smaller operators competing head on with each other at a time when First Potteries was at its lowest ebb and ripe for elimination (or takeover).

Services at hourly or 30 minute frequency are simply not attractive. They will retain existing users who don't get round to making other arrangements and attract very few new users. Over time the customer base (perhaps literally) dies away. A bus every 30 minutes, when you need to fit your travel around a fixed time appointment (doctor, dentist) is potentially going to mean hanging around for up to 30 minutes before and after. So a 10 minute bus ride, a 30 minute wait, a 15 minute appointment, a 30 minute wait, a 10 minute bus ride home. Well it fills your morning I suppose. That's assuming you don't go a bus early 'just in case it doesn't turn up'. A bus every 30 minutes is only 'attractive' if you have complete freedom over your activity in between, so visiting friends or going shopping. A third alternative, going to the pub, is out of the question unless you are a daytime drinker!

That is the one of the problems with the BSIP. It proposes introducing new services, at a 30 minute frequency, which some consultant seems to think will attract people out of their cars! Well it might if you are lucky enough to hit a sweet spot with the arrival time before work and departure time after. Again, a 30 minute early arrival for work and/or similar afterwards, five days per week, isn't attractive. Life is too short to waste up to a hour every day not even commuting but waiting to commute.

*may not be its name this week

 

[Lewisham2221]

Scraggs is a strange set up, the remaining one vehicle on service 5 runs wrapped around a Werrington High School* service. I'm not sure what else they run nowadays in terms of contracts or private hire.
Bakers became entangled with the King Long.
Wardle became Arriva, now D & G.
Prior to that you had the ridiculous situation of the smaller operators competing head on with each other at a time when First Potteries was at its lowest ebb and ripe for elimination (or takeover).

Services at hourly or 30 minute frequency are simply not attractive. They will retain existing users who don't get round to making other arrangements and attract very few new users. Over time the customer base (perhaps literally) dies away. A bus every 30 minutes, when you need to fit your travel around a fixed time appointment (doctor, dentist) is potentially going to mean hanging around for up to 30 minutes before and after. So a 10 minute bus ride, a 30 minute wait, a 15 minute appointment, a 30 minute wait, a 10 minute bus ride home. Well it fills your morning I suppose. That's assuming you don't go a bus early 'just in case it doesn't turn up'. A bus every 30 minutes is only 'attractive' if you have complete freedom over your activity in between, so visiting friends or going shopping. A third alternative, going to the pub, is out of the question unless you are a daytime drinker!

That is the one of the problems with the BSIP. It proposes introducing new services, at a 30 minute frequency, which some consultant seems to think will attract people out of their cars! Well it might if you are lucky enough to hit a sweet spot with the arrival time before work and departure time after. Again, a 30 minute early arrival for work and/or similar afterwards, five days per week, isn't attractive. Life is too short to waste up to a hour every day not even commuting but waiting to commute.

*may not be its name this week

Completely agree with all you've said.

However, there has got to be another factor at play which is just driving (literally) people away. Perhaps it's just the geography and town planning in the Potteries - everything is spread out due to the historical "6 towns" nature of the area. There's (heavily congested) retail parks everywhere and the town centres are dying. Bus priority measures are pretty much non-existent.

The Newcastle-Clayton section of D&G 9 runs every 30 mins. It's now an amalgamation of what was once 7 buses per hour! The 33 Westlands service used to run every 30 minutes under Bakers - it now runs 3 times per day under D&G. Something has gone seriously wrong. But what?

And realistically, what it is the solution?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Completely agree with all you've said.

However, there has got to be another factor at play which is just driving (literally) people away. Perhaps it's just the geography and town planning in the Potteries - everything is spread out due to the historical "6 towns" nature of the area. There's (heavily congested) retail parks everywhere and the town centres are dying. Bus priority measures are pretty much non-existent.

The Newcastle-Clayton section of D&G 9 runs every 30 mins. It's now an amalgamation of what was once 7 buses per hour! The 33 Westlands service used to run every 30 minutes under Bakers - it now runs 3 times per day under D&G. Something has gone seriously wrong. But what?

And realistically, what it is the solution?

In 1996:
Service A to Seabridge Lane (equivalent to the 33 now), every 15 minutes,
Service B to Westbury Park, every 15 minutes,
Service C to Clayton Village, every 15 minutes.
So 12 per hour Newcastle to Clayton Stumps, plus various others.

2010 - every 15 minutes to Westbury Park / Clayton combined, plus the 33
2014 - every 20 minutes
2017 - every 30 minutes
In each case add whatever else was running equivalent to the D & G 9 now.

The 33 route serves the wealthy area of Westlands, so poor operating territory, but perhaps containing wealthy pensioners who wouldn't drive into town if an attractive bus (frequency and comfort) was available. Whether that would be enough to make a commercial service is a different question. Prior to Covid the Arriva 64 seemed to attract people from Westlands (partly due to the dire frequency of the 33 no doubt). The current frequency is linked to Staffordshire County Councils approach / need to cut things to the bare minimum, whilst still being able to claim that the area is served by a bus service. In this case a one bus working with the 35 whereas they had a bus each previously.

Westbury Park and Clayton Village, middle ranking 1980's surburbia.
Clayton, large areas of 'council' housing.

There is no reasonable solution. Things have been allowed to sink too far, the time to intervene was at the time of the 2014 network review before those cuts were implemented. From that point it has been a continous cycle of decline causing cuts, or cuts causing decline, depending how you want to look at it.

Newcastle and Hanley remained attractive until fairly recently. Wolstanton Retail Park was pretty dire until M & S moved in (now their only store in N Staffs), Festival Park was your typical white goods and carpets retail park slowly becoming your new high street experience (Next etc). With the exception of Asda and Morrisons respectively who were there from the outset as 'anchor tenants'.

 

[SeanM1997]

D&G are taking over certain routes dropped by First Potteries from 2nd July 2023. More information on D&G thread

 

[Simon75]

I'm still surprised First still hasn't sold/closed the Potteries, as they have been rumours for years

 

[Lewisham2221]

In fleet news, 63346 and 63349 are the latest Streetlites to move from Leicester to Adderley Green.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A revised set of timetables have been uploaded to the TravelineSW site. I can see a change to the 7A which must be a correction as it now reflects the First timetable. Also two evening journeys added to the 101: 1900 Hanley - Stafford - Hanley and 2000 Hanley - Stafford - Stone, these are not shown on the forthcoming First timetable.
If you are comparing the two versions please note that the Sunday changes no longer show as they happened last Sunday.

 

[Simon75]

I've had a Facebook conversation with the Labour leader of Stoke-on-Trent Council. She doesn't understand that they First can't run services at a loss, and still blame privatisation. Even saying aswell that it should be council owned

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I've had a Facebook conversation with the Labour leader of Stoke-on-Trent Council. She doesn't understand that they First can't run services at a loss, and still blame privatisation. Even saying aswell that it should be council owned

The previous Conservative leader, Abby Brown, at the previous election, promised to 'take back control' of routes and fares, not think about or investigate, but to actually do it. Yes, I kept her election leaflet as evidence of the promise. Needless to say nothing (positive) happened whilst they were in charge.

It's not about whether First run at a loss, it's about how much profit they expect to make, which is about privatisation (or at least capitalism). It's also about whether First have decided to evacuate from the area come what may (to do a Northampton). Also about whether they have the gumption to understand that in order to use the bus in the daytime you also need a bus in the evening to return home on. Allied to this is whether you believe D & G are in cahoots or competition and their appetite for commercial activity and risk. One of the common misunderstandings of capitalism is that 'someone' will always enter the market if there is profit to be made.

There is clearly a serious problem in the Potteries (second largest decline in passengers nationally), it is whether the decline in passengers (or revenue - read insufficient ENCTS re-imbursement) caused the cuts or the constant rounds of cuts caused the decline in passengers as the service became wholly unattractive regardless of the fare paid (or even free for ENCTS).

First had an off-peak requirement for 159 buses in April 2014 (prior to the network review), tomorrow it is 68 (70 come September during university terms). Routes with a 10 minute frequency then (and a good evening and Sunday service) now run at a 30 minute frequency with the last bus between 1800 and 1900 and no Sunday service.

As to being council owned, no thanks, it would be even worse, neither of the main political parties locally could run a bath - even if provided with a set of instructions and a supervisor standing next to them. Public transport has never been a high political priority in Stoke-on-Trent (or Staffordshire really), perhaps because there was a dense network of frequent services until recently throughout the urban area. Lots of fine words, little action to follow it through. The BSIP / enhanced partnership is, at best, 'lacking in ambition'. No 'stretch targets' or 'going for growth', no lets just try and 'stabilise' things.

 

[markymark2000]

There is clearly a serious problem in the Potteries (second largest decline in passengers nationally), it is whether the decline in passengers (or revenue - read insufficient ENCTS re-imbursement) caused the cuts or the constant rounds of cuts caused the decline in passengers as the service became wholly unattractive regardless of the fare paid (or even free for ENCTS).

The other issue in the potteries is that everyone is sat in 'plod along' mode. No one is actively trying to get people onto buses. Stanton's of Stoke didn't join the Govt £2 scheme, have no contactless and until today, weren't part of the multi operator ticket.
Scraggs, just exist.
First don't care anymore really. They did seem like they were trying when they did all the route branding on the Scanias but that seems to have stopped now.
D&G just slowly pick up stuff no one else wants and they win the tenders.

No one is actively trying to attract passengers to the bus network. The Indies have zero commercial ambition and so even if First cancelled everything tomorrow, they would sit back and wait for a tender to come out, they wouldn't take on anything commercially. They're all too scared to do anything to try and fill gaps that First have left.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The other issue in the potteries is that everyone is sat in 'plod along' mode. No one is actively trying to get people onto buses. Stanton's of Stoke didn't join the Govt £2 scheme, have no contactless and until today, weren't part of the multi operator ticket.
Scraggs, just exist.
First don't care anymore really. They did seem like they were trying when they did all the route branding on the Scanias but that seems to have stopped now.
D&G just slowly pick up stuff no one else wants and they win the tenders.

No one is actively trying to attract passengers to the bus network. The Indies have zero commercial ambition and so even if First cancelled everything tomorrow, they would sit back and wait for a tender to come out, they wouldn't take on anything commercially. They're all too scared to do anything to try and fill gaps that First have left.

The whole of Stoke-on-Trent exists in 'plod along' mode, it's not just public transport. I often wonder if it is the exceptionally hard water locally affecting their development.

D & G would certainly consider taking things on commercially but it would be at a lower frequency and with a shorter period of operation. They then manage the decline of the route until it goes pop. The recent takeover of the 32/Kingfisher route saw some sections poorly served (Kingsley) and an earlier finish (since restored with Staffordshire support), plus a gap in the hourly service on the 32 where it does the 32A instead. It fits where it touches, reductions (or more support) are inevitable. Similarly the 2 to Birches Head and 43 to Milton, one now an off-peak operation, an hourly frequency is the next stop and the 43 to Milton, which has now made it to the hourly step from 30 minutes, expect the standard 'hourly service between school times with a longer gap at lunchtime' as the next stop.

The enhancements to the D & G 1 to Wood Lane are basically extensions of existing journeys which currently terminate at Audley. Nothing too adventurous there, minimal additional cost to gain the revenue from a 30 minute frequency service being withdrawn (First Potteries 4).

 

[GusB]

Let's stay on topic, please. This thread is about First Potteries. Anyone wishing to discuss D&G can do so in the relevant thread and if there are strong enough feelings about Stoke-on-Trent in general, feel free to start a new thread in the General Discussion section of the forum.

 

[Martin2013]

In the last decade or so have First Potteries actually bucked the trend and reversed cuts on a service or has it only been the case that across the network reduced timetables have only lead to that service declining further and more reductions later on down the line?

Certainly seems to have been the case with the 3 but not sure about other routes.

 

[davehsug]

In the last decade or so have First Potteries actually bucked the trend and reversed cuts on a service or has it only been the case that across the network reduced timetables have only lead to that service declining further and more reductions later on down the line?

Certainly seems to have been the case with the 3 but not sure about other routes.

All I can tell you is that a few years ago, routes which passed my home were 5, (First & Scraggs), 16 (First & D & G), 31 (Scraggs), 32 (First), 44 (First initially then Scraggs). There were buses every few minutes during the day, and I could get home from Hanley up to about 11.15pm. Now, there are no First services at all, the 5 is shared between D & G & Scraggs, and the 32 & 16 are D & G. I can't get home from Hanley after about 7.30. Just about all of the outer suburbs are now left without a reliable & useable bus service. Hanley bus station, the major public transport hub for a city of 250,000 people, at 9pm on any evening is empty of people & buses. Meanwhile, every other car on the roads is a private hire taxi.

 

[SLC001]

I read this thread with sadness having been born in Alsager and first got involved with buses - not First but good old PMT. I am of the view now, living in Northampton, that there are few destinations where lots of people actually want to go. e.g. large factories or employers, shopping centres. In any street like ours nearly everyone goes to work in different directions. When they socialise they go to different places - the town centre is no longer the mecca for many people's night out. My point is, perhaps not very well made, is that these days buses need to run services from every street (ideally house) to everywhere else in (and out of town) to meet this need. In theory this can only be achieved by making two bus journeys - one into town say and one out and folks will not do that. Private hire or private car achieves quicker, faster, convenient, practical and cheaper results.
I do not know the answer, decades of planning blight, random housing developments, emphasis on cars has contributed and is not easily fixed. Taking political control does not resolve the problem, rate payers take the risk, the services often restricted to political maps and not natural destinations. (Is Newcastle U L and Stoke under same political control now?)Politicians will also need to take more drastic and unpopular action if they are committed to buses which they will fear will rebound at the elections. Furthermore, they need to look at the impact these cuts have on the elderly, handicapped and other socially limited groups but since when is that a vote winner?
This may sound a rant and irrelevant to First Potteries but imho it is. First have to operate in this environment and it is not easy. Not that I have any sympathy for First but that is a personal view!

 

[43055]

In the last decade or so have First Potteries actually bucked the trend and reversed cuts on a service or has it only been the case that across the network reduced timetables have only lead to that service declining further and more reductions later on down the line?

Certainly seems to have been the case with the 3 but not sure about other routes.

The 32 I know the most and it basically just reduced over time until being withdrawn going from:
To start: 20 min Hanley - Cheedle, 3 buses every 2 hours to Uttoxeter, hourly and 2 hourly on Sundays
by 2015: 20 min Hanley - Cheedle, hourly to Uttoxeter with the odd 32A, hourly on Sundays as far as Tean
in between: 30 min Hanley - Cheedle, hourly to Uttoxeter, hourly on Sundays as far as Tean. 32A reduced again and then withdrawn.
by 2019: hourly full route Mon-Sat and to Tean on Sundays. In Uttoxeter services extend to the train station and new Kingfisher branding.
2022: Withdrawn

 

[Lewisham2221]

The 32 I know the most and it basically just reduced over time until being withdrawn going from:
To start: 20 min Hanley - Cheedle, 3 buses every 2 hours to Uttoxeter, hourly and 2 hourly on Sundays
by 2015: 20 min Hanley - Cheedle, hourly to Uttoxeter with the odd 32A, hourly on Sundays as far as Tean
in between: 30 min Hanley - Cheedle, hourly to Uttoxeter, hourly on Sundays as far as Tean. 32A reduced again and then withdrawn.
by 2019: hourly full route Mon-Sat and to Tean on Sundays. In Uttoxeter services extend to the train station and new Kingfisher branding.
2022: Withdrawn

It was at this point that D&G stepped in with their 32X service, Hanley-Cheadle-Tean, missing out Kingsley, thus diluting the already low passenger numbers on "Kingfisher" - with the exception of a couple of school time trips the numbers were very low and passengers to/from Uttoxeter railway station were virtually non-existent.

 

[SeanM1997]

First Potteries have registered to cancel their 6 Crewe - Leighton Hospital from 3 September 2023

https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/details/611767/

 

[Danfilm007]

First Potteries have registered to cancel their 6 Crewe - Leighton Hospital from 3 September 2023

https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/details/611767/

That lasted long...

 

[StoneyM]

For those of us who've travelled on First Potteries, and before that PMT, buses we're used to timetable eccentricities. But the latest introduced on the Hanley to Stafford 101 this Monday is so utterly mind-boggling that I thought it must be a misprint.
Up to this week there were three buses reaching Stone heading for Stafford on a weekday before 0800, I used to catch the second at 0712. As of Monday 3 July the first two have been dropped, the first through Stone is now the 0727, bad enough, but wait! A glance at the timetable shows that this bus once it gets to Stafford and turns round for the return journey is actually the FOURTH bus out of Stafford!
For some unfathomable reason First Potteries are running THREE buses from Hanley to Stafford via Stone before 0730 but none of them stop, they sail down the A34 all the way. What's the sense in that? On Monday morning I was so sure that such a stupid timetable must be wrong that I turned up for the 0712 convinced it would appear, but it didn't. By the time the 0727 arrived, late and full (luckily a double-decker) THREE buses had already made it to Stafford and were on their way north.
I've contacted First Bus Customer Services twice, once last week and again this week, but despite assurances that they'll "get back to me" I've heard nothing, no surprise there then.
Can anyone offer an explanation for this ludicrous timetable, take a look at it, it needs to be seen to be believed! I'm trying to convince myself that it's simply an experiment for the summer, once the schools and colleges return in September and the first bus of the day will be packed, even a double-decker, First Potteries will see the error of their ways and restore at least one of the earlier services.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

For some unfathomable reason First Potteries are running THREE buses from Hanley to Stafford via Stone before 0730 but none of them stop, they sail down the A34 all the way. What's the sense in that?

Can anyone offer an explanation for this ludicrous timetable, take a look at it, it needs to be seen to be believed! I'm trying to convince myself that it's simply an experiment for the summer, once the schools and colleges return in September and the first bus of the day will be packed, even a double-decker, First Potteries will see the error of their ways and restore at least one of the earlier services.

Not mind-bogging at all, that is what they do. On many routes the buses run private from the depot to the outer terminus. Sometimes it makes sense eg depot to Blythe Bridge (6A), others it doesn't such as the 101 where they are going to go via Stone anyway.

In their favour, it is quicker to run private and direct rather than in service from Filleybrooks through the town and around Walton etc. That will give a time saving so less drivers hours to pay for, but ought to be balanced against the loss of revenue. In the previous timetable the 0633 started from Stafford, the 0703 arrived in service from Hanley and the 0728 arrived in service from Filleybrooks.

Across the network there are numerous buses which start service/end service at Hanley and run private to/from depot. Those buses, the same turns each day, could be used to give Bentilee some kind of early morning and evening service but no, that might attract passengers! The excuse for that one was that they weren't prepared to pay for two (or four, can't remember) minutes driver time to turn the ticket machine around!

 

[StoneyM]

Not mind-bogging at all, that is what they do. On many routes the buses run private from the depot to the outer terminus. Sometimes it makes sense eg depot to Blythe Bridge (6A), others it doesn't such as the 101 where they are going to go via Stone anyway.

In their favour, it is quicker to run private and direct rather than in service from Filleybrooks through the town and around Walton etc. That will give a time saving so less drivers hours to pay for, but ought to be balanced against the loss of revenue. In the previous timetable the 0633 started from Stafford, the 0703 arrived in service from Hanley and the 0728 arrived in service from Filleybrooks.

Across the network there are numerous buses which start service/end service at Hanley and run private to/from depot. Those buses, the same turns each day, could be used to give Bentilee some kind of early morning and evening service but no, that might attract passengers! The excuse for that one was that they weren't prepared to pay for two (or four, can't remember) minutes driver time to turn the ticket machine around!

It makes a mockery of the "new lower fares" notices all over the windows, what use are lower fares if there's not a reasonably timed bus to travel on! Luckily I'm retiring in less than three months and I won't have to catch an early bus ever again.
Naturally there's no direct phone line to Hanley, only Customer Services in Leeds who said they'll pass my concerns on. I'll take a day off soon and make the trip to Hanley Bus Station and see if the office there can convince me that Coco the Clown had no hand in this fiasco.

 

[Simon75]

Not mind-bogging at all, that is what they do. On many routes the buses run private from the depot to the outer terminus. Sometimes it makes sense eg depot to Blythe Bridge (6A), others it doesn't such as the 101 where they are going to go via Stone anyway.

In their favour, it is quicker to run private and direct rather than in service from Filleybrooks through the town and around Walton etc. That will give a time saving so less drivers hours to pay for, but ought to be balanced against the loss of revenue. In the previous timetable the 0633 started from Stafford, the 0703 arrived in service from Hanley and the 0728 arrived in service from Filleybrooks.

Across the network there are numerous buses which start service/end service at Hanley and run private to/from depot. Those buses, the same turns each day, could be used to give Bentilee some kind of early morning and evening service but no, that might attract passengers! The excuse for that one was that they weren't prepared to pay for two (or four, can't remember) minutes driver time to turn the ticket machine around!

They did have several positioning journeys very early to very late (ie 5am to at least midnight from Hanley to Adderley Green a few years back.
Locals have complained plenty that they run dead from Adderley Green to/from Hanley when they could run in service.

 

[StoneyM]

How annoying it must be for First Potteries to actually carry passengers. I remember when the last bus from Stafford to Stone was around 2330, now it's 2115.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

How annoying it must be for First Potteries to actually carry passengers. I remember when the last bus from Stafford to Stone was around 2330, now it's 2115.

If it wasn't for stopping to pick up passengers, the buses would run on time.

Last buses from Stafford:
2320 to Hanley and 0005 to Newcastle from July 2014
2210 to Hanley and 2310 to Stone from January 2020
2015 to Hanley from March 2020
2015 to Hanley, 2040 and 2110 to Stone from May 2020
and very similar until this month when the 2040 was removed.